Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[SteveM70]

Bit in bold - is not correct. The number of night flights is *very limited* there are nearly always restrictions on the number of night flights an airport can take due to noise restrictions.

Manchester operates 24 hours a day. There are 43 flights due between midnight and 6am tomorrow

 

[johncrossley]

Bit in bold - is not correct. The number of night flights is *very limited* there are nearly always restrictions on the number of night flights an airport can take due to noise restrictions.

AirportWatch | Night flights at Gatwick

Gatwick: The number of flights allowed at Gatwick between 11.30 pm and 6.00 am is limited by a quota – at present 11,200 in the summer (seven months) and 3,250 in winter. That is a total of 14,450 flights per year. Stansted: By contrast, Stansted currently has permission to operate 12,000 night...

www.airportwatch.org.uk

It is why many long distance, or intercontinental flights are timed to arrive at UK airports *after* 6am.

I suppose it depends what you call *a lot* or *very limited". People who live under the Gatwick flight path may well consider that the limit of 14,450 night flights a year is still *a lot*. Of course, I also used the phrase "late evening". Again, that is open to interpretation, but one definition of "late evening" could be "after 20:00" and clearly quite a few flights arrive at that time.

 

[Halwynd]

There's a fairly detailed article by Roger French on his Bus & Train User website today which just illustrates how daft this proposal is and why so many people are against it.

It's called 'The Ticket Office Closure Con' - direct link below:

The ticket office closure con

Saturday 8th July 2023 The delusional Rail Delivery Group reckon it’ll be better than ever. Moving staff from somewhere everyone knows where to find them (ie something called a ‘ticket …

busandtrainuser.com

Moving staff from somewhere everyone knows where to find them (ie something called a ‘ticket office’) to “out of ticket offices and onto station platforms and concourses to support better, face-to-face interactions” is not only plain daft, it’s illogical.

New multi-skilled ‘customer help’ roles “will mean staff are able to help more customers across a whole range of needs, from buying tickets, to offering travel advice and helping those with accessibility needs”.............

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Has anything been said if there will be a number of methods employed during the period of this consultation, such as public meetings or TV debate forums.

 

[pitdiver]

The idea as I see it is to get staff out of offices and to be around the station. I was a Booking Clerk with LUL back in the early 90s.
Then the wonderful "Company Plan" came into operation. Those amongst us on here will know what I am talking about. I became a " Multi Functional Station Supervisor". This meant I would be out and about on the station. Difficult to find if the MFMs or FFMs went up the creek.

In addition If I recall GTR tried as an experiment at my former local station, Flitwick< to move the Booking Office staff out from behind the glass screen. This failed miserably.

 

[father_jack]

Do the proposed booking office time changes at Manchester Airport mean a single shift can cover it.

In the past when I have been there, there always seem quite a number of overseas people whose flight has arrived who wanted to purchase rail tickets and asking advice on the intended journeys. The new morning start is 8am rather then 6.30am but the booking office closing time proposal sees a mid-afternoon closure instead of a 22.30 one. What flights are incoming in that period where incoming airline passengers could be troubled by the lack of an open booking office.

No need to worry about Manchester Airport anyway, only hand held machines being used there yesterday at 0930 with the office shuttered shut.

 

[nlogax]

In addition If I recall GTR tried as an experiment at my former local station, Flitwick< to move the Booking Office staff out from behind the glass screen. This failed miserably.

How come, and what lessons (if any) could be learned from it which could be applied now?

 

[Spamcan81]

<snip>

Sadly I get the impression many on here simply view these proposals as a victory against the RMT, and aren’t considering (or simply don’t care!) that the railway is likely to end up significantly less accessible for many.

On this forum and others there’s an awful lot of “I’m alright Jack” from those agreeing with these proposals and precious little understanding of the problems they will cause the disabled and disadvantaged.

There's a fairly detailed article by Roger French on his Bus & Train User website today which just illustrates how daft this proposal is and why so many people are against it.

It's called 'The Ticket Office Closure Con' - direct link below:

The ticket office closure con

Saturday 8th July 2023 The delusional Rail Delivery Group reckon it’ll be better than ever. Moving staff from somewhere everyone knows where to find them (ie something called a ‘ticket …

busandtrainuser.com

An excellent piece. Thanks for the link.

 

[Sand_elf]

You can't buy a Robin hood day ticket from a ticket machine as far as I'm aware

 

[Peterthegreat]

Closing 131 of 149 currently manned ticket offices is hardly Northern only making limited changes

Absolutely.

 

[Class 170101]

My phone is in one pocket. My wallet is in the other. All my cash is in my wallet.

As such, it isn't really a possible scenario for me to be left with only cash. Indeed if I'm concerned I'm more likely to take one payment card out of my wallet and hide it in my bag, or similar, then there is a backup.

It could be possible actually. You may have cards but the network operating them is down then what?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Airports with night flights, like Manchester and Gatwick, are particularly difficult places to have a ticket office because many flights arrive in the late evening or overnight when ticket offices would normally be closed. Gatwick ticket office used to be open 24 hours a day but now no longer exists! Obviously Gatwick is a much busier airport than Manchester so if Gatwick can cope then I'm sure Manchester can.

Manchester operates 24 hours a day. There are 43 flights due between midnight and 6am tomorrow

Why would the ticket office there need to be open for all 24 hours, there's not normally any trains departing from Manchester Airport for maybe three hours or so during the "wee small hours" (whereas Gatwick Airport has a minimum hourly call for those train services operating overnight between Three Bridges and Bedford).

 

[Tube driver]

The idea as I see it is to get staff out of offices and to be around the station. I was a Booking Clerk with LUL back in the early 90s.
Then the wonderful "Company Plan" came into operation. Those amongst us on here will know what I am talking about. I became a " Multi Functional Station Supervisor". This meant I would be out and about on the station. Difficult to find if the MFMs or FFMs went up the creek.

In addition If I recall GTR tried as an experiment at my former local station, Flitwick< to move the Booking Office staff out from behind the glass screen. This failed miserably.

Same with the last LUL ticket office closures.

Sold to the public that all these staff would be released to assist in the ticket halls and provide a greater presence in the stations.

Where are they now? All gone and they‘re looking to remove even more positions. Don‘t be fooled into thinking that they’ll be loads of staff wearing ‘happy to help’ badges. At first, yes, but they’ll soon be displaced or moved on and won’t be replaced and they’ll be no one to assist when the ticket machine goes on strike.

 

[LowLevel]

You can't buy a Robin hood day ticket from a ticket machine as far as I'm aware

They're relatively well available though - any guard can sell them from Carlton, Attenborough, Beeston or Bulwell, and the tram vending machines scattered about the place will sell them too, at Nottingham and Bulwell. They can also be bought from bus drivers.

 

[SteveM70]

Why would the ticket office there need to be open for all 24 hours, there's not normally any trains departing from Manchester Airport for maybe three hours or so during the "wee small hours" (whereas Gatwick Airport has a minimum hourly call for those train services operating overnight between Three Bridges and Bedford).

I'm not saying it should be. If you read my comment in context, you'd see it was a reply to a rather high-handed statement that there are minimal night time arrivals at airports including Manchester, and I was merely pointing out the poster's statement was wrong

 

[syorksdeano]

]

Given my experiences at Sheffield ticket office (admittely not recently) and the experiences of many other people I know, I would be surprised if a high proportion of customers sign it.
.

They were walking around the station with it and didn't see anyone refusing to sign it

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The Government is trying to kill the railway, you mean.

There is plenty of blame to go to all parties imho.

 

[Typhoon]

It's so, so common for a TVM to be found not in working order with faults like unresponsive touch screen, frozen in collection mode, no power, or in offline mode and yet its status to show as live on the remote condition report. At least one operator now advises the customer to take a picture of the machine if it can't be used which seems to me to be tacit admission their remote monitoring isn't reliable. Hardware issues such as lots of rainwater on the screen or ticket hopper are so rarely reported and yet so commonly nobody could be bothered to specify a hood for the machine to keep out of the rain. The one at Shalford station in Surrey actually used to flood because of a drain on the platform in front of it being completely blocked!

I don't know whether this is the one you are referring to but I have been advised to do so by Southeastern. The one at the station nearest to me is not in working order more frequently than it is. If a staff member passes me, I advise them, but it is certainly not unknown for them to be unaware of the problem (and that includes Revenue Protection, who you would have thought were a priority).

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Wellington Station ticket office on the Salop line will be closing as part of the scheme unfortunately. Replaced with staff assisting on the platform instead. Not good enough really. Need to keep them open.

 

[NeilCr]

Saw my partner today and we discussed this

She, generally, agreed with what I have said here ( very unusual!)

She did say that a particular concern would be trying to find any “designated” person on the station

Given the station we both use is Ramsgate

 

[Starmill]

I don't know whether this is the one you are referring to but I have been advised to do so by Southeastern. The one at the station nearest to me is not in working order more frequently than it is. If a staff member passes me, I advise them, but it is certainly not unknown for them to be unaware of the problem (and that includes Revenue Protection, who you would have thought were a priority).

It's often not that straightforward for front-line staff to report these things, although it most certainly should be, and as you imply ticket vending machines not working should be treated as a priority for reporting. It is possible for these to be reported directly by the public using the company's social media or in Southeastern's case WhatsApp direct message on 07866002690. If none of these options are convenient the customer relations telephone number should do it, or you could try the help point but likely they won't be able to help. Of course this also doesn't guarantee any report making it to the right place, which, I guess is the main concern here.

 

[317 forever]

The Northern one shows how much of a lie it is that the people in the ticket office are going to be replaced by staff giving 'face to face' help.

Take Huyton, for example. A fairly busy station with a wide variety of customers with various travel needs. Current ticket office hours 0540 to 2359 Monday to Saturday, 0810 to 2335 on Sunday.

Proposed hours for 'journey makers' (ugh!) : 0700 to 1030 Monday to Friday, 0900 to 1230 Saturday, nothing on Sunday. That's a cut of over 80% as to the hours staff will be available.

Hopefully by the time such staff cutbacks occur it will be possible to buy Merseytravel Saveaways or top up our Oyster/Metro cards online. I bought one around 7.45am one Saturday in December. Admittedly that was partly because the ticket office at Newton le Willows had not opened when it should have done.

Because the industry has presumably realised that these things need to be regularly reviewed, and not just in "big hits" like now.

The closures will happen now and some measures put in place.
But in 12, 18 months time etc, and into the future, those measures will more than likely not be necessary either, and will be removed.
Nobody realistically believes that Northern are going to send a man to stand around at a lightly used station, surrounded by a field for several hours a day forever more, surely? Glazebrook being an example of this mentioned earlier.

As technology progresses, you could reasonably expect TVMs to eventually disappear for example.

I bet there will be another round of closures/staffing reviews when the TfL contactless projects finish their expansion.

A more ridiculous example was Mauldeth Road where the ticket office was open during the Aslef strike despite the notice stating no trains running from that station that day.

 

[Starmill]

Nobody realistically believes that Northern are going to send a man to stand around at a lightly used station, surrounded by a field for several hours a day forever more, surely? Glazebrook being an example of this mentioned earlier.

I would be surprised if the staffing for a few hours a day only at stations with no indoor waiting areas lasts for more than a few months to a year. It will quickly prove very impractical and by far the easiest and cheapest solution would be to withdraw those roles and have the stations unstaffed in their entirety. Mauldeth Road for example doesn't have anywhere indoors for a member of staff to work from other than the ticket office. I can't imagine the cash to convert the ticket office into a very very small public waiting room will be forthcoming given Northern don't even have a budget to put a second ticket vending machine in at the station, or even a sign on the southbound platform to tell you that there is a ticket machine on the ramp to the northbound one. There's no station footbridge so it's a very long walk indeed between each platform's entrance.

Bank branches closing is another matter, not everyone wants to use apps. Generally when banks close, towns go down hill too and become more desolate they many already are. Sometimes its just easier speaking to a "real" person rather than looking at the never relevant FAQ. This goes for rail ticket offices.

I've always thought there's a clear social good in operating libraries, bank branches and post offices in small and medium sized towns, but each by itself generates not quite enough benefit to justify in lightly used locations. The obvious answer to me was always to combine them into one service centre which gets a little bit of capital spend to make it a nice place and to multi-skill the staff. Lots of councils already have customer service desks in buildings which could have more functions. I'd argue that selling rail and coach tickets could easily be added to this list, indeed coach tickets are already available in person at all kinds of third party fulfilment centres. As long as any fees levied for the use of these options are very minimal or zero I think that this is completely fair.

 

[317 forever]

GWR do in theory sell rovers/rangers on line but only with postal delivery and a compulsory £7.50 fee for next day delivery so not an attractive option.

Given that many tickets now have a bar code, from PDF e-tickets to bog roll ticket, it should not be unduly complex to extend the PDF e-ticket option to Rovers/Rangers with an appropriate bar code.

 

[kkong]

When are ticket offices most used?

The document linked below (from the ScotRail consultation 18 months ago) lists the sales for each hour for each ScotRail operated ticket office.

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/sites/de...iew_consultation_v2_december21_appendix_1.pdf

No I'm arguing it won't be done for insurance reasons but the same insurance reasons won't apply to the concourse at Manchester Piccadilly.

I'd be surprised if TVMs were insured against theft or damage.

I'd expect it's just a cost of doing business to the owners / operators and not worth the administration and cost of insuring.

If there is a recurring issue, the TVM would be removed.

 

[Hadders]

I'd be surprised if TVMs were insured against theft or damage.

Agreed. Large organisations normally self insure. A former employer of mine had the absolute minimum insurance required by law for their very large vehicle fleet - it was 3rd party only with an excess of £1 million.

Similar situation for Employers Liability insurance as well.

 

[Starmill]

Agreed. Large organisations normally self insure. A former employer of mine had the absolute minimum insurance required by law for their very large vehicle fleet - it was 3rd party only with an excess of £1 million.

Similar situation for Employers Liability insurance as well.

My understanding is that in general cash inside TVMs often is insured up to a limit on the amount that can be collected within the machine. Property damage i.e. the value of the machine itself is generally not insured unless there's a specific reason why some of a station's assets might need to be. Usually left up to a commercial decision as you say.

As the post above says it has led to machines being removed permanently.

 

[kkong]

My understanding is that in general cash inside TVMs often is insured up to a limit on the amount that can be collected within the machine. Property damage i.e. the value of the machine itself is generally not insured unless there's a specific reason why some of a station's assets might need to be. Usually left up to a commercial decision as you say.

But surely the amount of cash in any given TVM would be well below the typical insurance policy excess.

At my previous employer (c.100 employees, £20m turnover), there was a £25,000 excess on the general "all risks" insurance policy.

 

[Gaelan]

Given that many tickets now have a bar code, from PDF e-tickets to bog roll ticket, it should not be unduly complex to extend the PDF e-ticket option to Rovers/Rangers with an appropriate bar code.

The problem is fraud risk - what stops you from giving same ranger to all your friends, as long as you're mildly clever about it and don't create an impossible journey history?

For singles/returns, they can tell from scan history if the ticket's been used before, so that's fine (well, you could give someone the return half of a ticket you only need the outward half of, which is against the rules, but you can do that with paper tickets anyway), but for rangers, usage history doesn't indicate anything about validity - the way they prevent you from sharing it is by giving you exactly one copy of a physical ticket.

The solution would be something like what Trainline's trialling for season tickets, where the ticket's only shown on an app (and generates a new barcode every time, so you can't take a screenshot), but it's not just a matter of doing it the same as singles.

 

[317 forever]

I see there's a petition being sent to Parliament opposing the closures which has 17000 signatures to date and rising by the minute.......they'll need 100000 signatures for the issue to be debated in parliament but stranger things have happened!

I get some emails about petitions on change.org but have not had one about trying to halt the ticket office closures.

That said, I just looked and found one here.

Sign the Petition

Save Our Railway Ticket Offices!

www.change.org

I am deeply troubled by the proposed closure of railway ticket offices. I have started this petition to stop the closure because of what it would mean, especially for disabled passengers, but for all of us who have or might ever need help in a train station - ticket offices are a lifeline.


My husband works in a ticket office. The closure of ticket offices would not only jeopardize the livelihoods of hardworking individuals like my husband but also severely impact our entire community.

Whether you need advice on routes, fares, platform locations or you just need help - staff at ticket offices provide the vital human connection that people need, especially in emergencies. Travelling can be incredibly stressful - especially if you are elderly, disabled, neurodiverse or speak english as a second language.


Without the support of staff, millions of people will be completely unable to use the rail network. Millions of people across the UK cannot use or do not have access to smartphones or computers and only have access to cash - many online ticket services don’t even have the wheelchair discount listed. This will isolate people, restricting them to their homes, and prevent them traveling all together.


It is not just about tickets - staff at ticket offices are often the only point of contact for disabled people arriving at a station who need assistance - they help carry luggage, provide information and advice, deploy ramps, take cash payments and unlock toilets - all of which are the difference between leaving the house and not, for so many people, disabled or otherwise.


Let us stand together in preserving the accessibility and safety of our railways by protecting these vital ticket offices. Sign this petition today to ensure that our voices are heard loud and clear – let's save our railway ticket offices!

Thank you for your support in safeguarding the future of accessible transportation for all.