Future of TPE

[CICERO55]

Does anyone know of the transport secretary’s response to louise haigh’s question re tpe? Also wouldnt it be common sense not to just renationalise the company but also to split the company up altogether?

 

[RailWonderer]

Definitely makes more sense with Avanti.

Nah, not Avanti.

I am not sure but I think the 802s only do the North Transpennine service that goes all the way Northwards from York so likely they all reach Edinburgh anyway.

Would the TPE services to Scarborough and Cleethorpes be ending up with Northern or XC ?. I would assume not Northern - so 68+Mk5s would go to XC.

If anything the above means XC provides competition to Avanti WC, LNER and Northern. Healthy in the governments eyes !.

But not sure what would be left of TPE to hand over to Northern (185s but for where).

Afterthoughts :-

XC ending up with TPEs 802s no problem of a microfleet as I can see XC going all IET any way. Got to keep the DfTs beloved IET factory alive. We have not seen a rush to take on Avantis 221s have we.

Yet more reason to stoke my fear that the TPE 68+Mk5s are doomed to early retirement.

Avanti have got their act together with service frequencies and cancellations since the December timetable so the Anglo Scots services wouldn't be a disaster either if ran by Avanti.
The Manchester - Hudds - Leeds stoppers and Manchester - Hull would still be TPE and ran by 185s. I would put money on it breaking up given the government's lack of willingness to add another operator to its list of OLR operations.

For me: Manchester - Hudds - Leeds, Manchester - Cleethorpes, Hull, Scarborough shuttles and extensions: Northern.
Manchester/Liverpool - Newcastle: XC
Anglo Scots: Avanti.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Avanti have got their act together with service frequencies and cancellations since the December timetable so the Anglo Scots services wouldn't be a disaster either if ran by Avanti.
The Manchester - Hudds - Leeds stoppers and Manchester - Hull would still be TPE and ran by 185s. I would put money on it breaking up given the government's lack of willingness to add another operator to its list of OLR operations.

For me: Manchester - Hudds - Leeds, Manchester - Cleethorpes, Hull, Scarborough shuttles and extensions: Northern.
Manchester/Liverpool - Newcastle: XC
Anglo Scots: Avanti.

I seem to recall there was a desire to reduce the number of TOCs anyway. To me the longer distance TPE services are all working cross country so why not hand them over to the company called "Cross Country" ?. Its then XC North and XC South&West with Birmingham and Manchester at the two centres.

Now where are my crayons.

 

[Efini92]

This is just speculation but I highly doubt that will happen especially with Glasgow and Preston TPE depots. The most likely thing to happen is TPE becomes nationalised and the service stays roughly the same as they have 3 different types of trains Nova 1,2 and 3 on top of having to get non tilt voyagers back on the west coast

I doubt it’s true either but it is plausible. If they did become XC it wouldn’t necessarily mean they would run voyagers. More likely they would be XC (ex tpe). Just a livery and uniform change.

 

[RailWonderer]

Another idea would be to send the 68s and mk5s to XC to replace their HST sets along with the IETs. 185s to Northern (although it would be a shame to see the smart livery replaced with tacky blue and yellow) and the 397s heading to Avanti would make the dissolving of TPE much cleaner.

 

[yorksrob]

"Future of TPE"

Extremely short lived, hopefully.

 

[adrock1976]

One thing I have suggested previously regarding TPE is for the Scarborough - York section to run as a shuttle on an increased 30 minute frequency.

Albeit unscientific, when both myself and my partner went to Blue Dolphin (once) and Primrose Valley (twice) caravan parks, the train between York and Scarborough was reliable as all three times it ran as a shuttle.

"Future of TPE"

Extremely short lived, hopefully.

Being as First Group operate the TPE, Great Western, and the South Western franchises all due to expire soon, perhaps First could go back to concentrating on running the former corporation bus companies and how to improve them with the driver shortages ongoing at the moment?

 

[Meerkat]

Also wouldnt it be common sense not to just renationalise the company but also to split the company up altogether?

Why - what is wrong with TPE as a concept?

 

[RailWonderer]

Why - what is wrong with TPE as a concept?

Their current predicament of having a large backlog of driver training to do arising from staff having retired after Covid has driven the service to the dumps. Their frequent cancellations and delays render the service totally unreliable at the best of times and some of it is pure incompetance, not reinstating certain services leaving gaps through the day, running services part of the length and not the full length at irregular hours making the entire thing not consistant.

Plus streamlining the rail network with fewer operators would mean less ticket types, less passenger confusion, more coherant branding etc, the list goes on.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Their current predicament of having a large backlog of driver training to do arising from staff having retired after Covid has driven the service to the dumps. Their frequent cancellations and delays render the service totally unreliable at the best of times and some of it is pure incompetance, not reinstating certain services leaving gaps through the day, running services part of the length and not the full length at irregular hours making the entire thing not consistant.

Plus streamlining the rail network with fewer operators would mean less ticket types, less passenger confusion, more coherant branding etc, the list goes on.

It appears DfT had a hand in the woes of TPE. With the drivers it seems routes were split up so that ddrivers did not do the whole train route. This leads to more risk because of not having a driver passed on the traction half way through an individual service. DfT seem to have been keen on this plan for drivers to be passed on fewer routes.

But I agree the resulting service, for whatever reason, has been dire.

 

[Some guy]

It appears DfT had a hand in the woes of TPE. With the drivers it seems routes were split up so that ddrivers did not do the whole train route. This leads to more risk because of not having a driver passed on the traction half way through an individual service. DfT seem to have been keen on this plan for drivers to be passed on fewer routes.

But I agree the resulting service, for whatever reason, has been dire.

It’s all the DFT’s fault and some TPE management for not being competent enough to know that halving drivers routes was never going to work. A Liverpool driver used to work the entire route to Newcastle and now it’s rare that they go to York. There was rarely cancellations Pre Covid compared to now

 

[JonathanH]

Plus streamlining the rail network with fewer operators would mean less ticket types, less passenger confusion, more coherant branding etc, the list goes on.

That may well happen anyway under the GBR proposals, with suggestions of one faresetting body and the removal of operator specific fares. Then it really wouldn't matter how many operators there are.

Even if TPE were absorbed into another operators tomorrow, it would still be the same traincrew depots who know the stock and the routes TPE operate. It isn't as if Northern traincrew could suddenly start operating TPE trains.

 

[Peter Sarf]

It’s all the DFT’s fault and some TPE management for not being competent enough to know that halving drivers routes was never going to work. A Liverpool driver used to work the entire route to Newcastle and now it’s rare that they go to York. There was rarely cancellations Pre Covid compared to now

It was probably the rift between old hands who know how it works and the new ideas people promising nirvana to the DfT. Somewhere in the middle is manageable innovation. We can blame DfT but then don't take their money......

 

[87015]

It was TPE who recently transferred Mk5 work into a 185 only drivers link, but thats easier to blame on DfT too, just give journalists free passes to parrot your line...

 

[cslusarc]

Manchester-Scotland has been XC before, but to me Avanti would make more sense.

The Scotland to Manchester (Airport) services should only be returned to XC if they were extended back to Birmingham and diverted away from the Airport to run via Stockport. Otherwise they should go to the Intercity West Coast operator.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Scotland to Manchester (Airport) services should only be returned to XC if they were extended back to Birmingham and diverted away from the Airport to run via Stockport. Otherwise they should go to the Intercity West Coast operator.

Yes, it would be possible to put them back the way they were pre-about 2005 (I think) but I'm not sure the case for doing that is particularly good.

 

[Snow1964]

Being as First Group operate the TPE, Great Western, and the South Western franchises all due to expire soon, perhaps First could go back to concentrating on running the former corporation bus companies and how to improve them with the driver shortages ongoing at the moment?

Great Western has been extended to 2028, and SWR to May 2025.

But TPE is currently ends in May.

Although DfT have still to announce future of Avanti contract even though that has only 4 weeks to run. So TPE is still second in announcement queue.

 

[Frankfurt]

It’s all the DFT’s fault and some TPE management for not being competent enough to know that halving drivers routes was never going to work. A Liverpool driver used to work the entire route to Newcastle and now it’s rare that they go to York. There was rarely cancellations Pre Covid compared to now

Liverpool drivers no longer work to York, Leeds is as far as they go. Scarborough drivers only work as far as Leeds. Newcastle drivers have lost all 185 work in December so no longer sign that traction type. The above are all fairly recent decisions by the inept people (supposedly) in charge.

 

[HSTEd]

Yes, it would be possible to put them back the way they were pre-about 2005 (I think) but I'm not sure the case for doing that is particularly good.

If we are going for a recast anyway, is there any reason they have to run via Stockport?

You could weld them onto the XC Manchester-South coast services and divert those to run via the Airport. So you would have Scotland-Birmingham-South Coast via Manchester Airport/Manchester

 

[daodao]

I would get rid of TPE and transfer its services to other TOCs as follows:

• to Avanti WC - WCML services from Liverpool/Manchester to Edinburgh/Glasgow via Carlisle, and run them from Manchester Victoria, not the Airport
• to GNER - Express services via Standedge from Liverpool to York and onwards to Middlesbrough/Tees-side and to Newcastle
• to XC/GNER - local stops/services currently provided by TPE between Newcastle and Edinburgh
• to EMR - South Transpennine services from Liverpool via Sheffield to Cleethorpes
• to Northern - local/semi-fast services from Manchester via Standedge to Huddersfield/Leeds/Scarborough/Hull. I would start the stopping services at Manchester Victoria platforms 1/2 and the semi-fast services at Manchester Piccadilly platforms 1/2/3, with no services running through from the Airport
• to Northern - replacement all station stopping services for the TPE services to Manchester Airport, which would terminate at the main Piccadilly trainshed

The only TPE services that should be taken over by XC are the semi-fast services currently provided by TPE between Newcastle and Edinburgh.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Problem with that is XC dont have any stock to operate that service with. So they would have to either TUPE some of Newcastle and Glasgow crews over to XC along with a few 802s until the avanti 221s could be drafted in and trwction training completed, or run a few services 4 vice 8 to free up units again until the avanti 221s become available. Both would cause problems elsewhere tho in crewing and stock shortages.

Absorbing the 802 work and the associated trancrews of newcastle, liverpool and part of York relocated to Leeds and Glasgow relocated to Edinburgh into LNER would make far more sense as you have crews and traction that already sign the route and little conversion needed to absorb them into LNERs rostering. 397 and associated crews to Avanti and the rest of the north route into northern and south route into EMR. Send the 185s onto calder valley work as well as on their current TPE work interworked with the 3 car 195s freeing up 150/156 units to work the locals.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The timings work well for the Scotland - Manchester TPE and Manchester - Bournemouth XC services to be merged, although you lose the Airport connectivity in the process (oh well, a change at Piccadilly isn't the end of the world, look at what connectivity you have from Heathrow!) Arriva would therefore give First some much-needed competition for Preston - Glasgow/Edinburgh. If they get Avanti's 221s they'd have enough stock to do this, and if the Greta Thunbergs of the forum take issue with Voyagers running on an electrified route, split it? Run with EMUs Scotland - Coventry and Voyagers from Birmingham - Bournemouth? Very crayonista of me.

The only TPE services that should be taken over by XC are the semi-fast services currently provided by TPE between Newcastle and Edinburgh.

LNER already run 80x over that route, so surely LNER should just get it, and take a few 802s with it?

 

[mike57]

Albeit unscientific, when both myself and my partner went to Blue Dolphin (once) and Primrose Valley (twice) caravan parks, the train between York and Scarborough was reliable as all three times it ran as a shuttle.

It had been pretty reliable whilst running as a shuttle, which started during covid. However now even the shuttle is suffering, 4 cancellations yesterday (again). Problem is with it being an hourly service this leaves some long waits for passengers.

I want to go to Leeds this afternoon and will be checking carefully before I set off, if it looks like the service I plan on using is cancelled I do have the option to postpone to another day.

TPE really look like they are limping along waiting for the inevitable.

23 day before cancellations today including 6 involving Scarborough, and thats before any more last minute ones, and a lot of shortened journeys as well. And of course 3 car units working Leeds - Manchester (semi) fast services even although they seem to have a surplus of rolling stock given the level of planned cancellations. In other words the same appalling service we have been suffering since May 2018. (The excuses have changed over the 5 years, but the poor service hasn't)

Before people start the TPE v DfT debate, as a passenger all I am interested in is that I can complete my journey in a timely manner on a train with enough capacity. So a plague on both their houses is my response.

 

[skyhigh]

Arriva would therefore give First some much-needed competition for Preston - Glasgow/Edinburgh.

The simple truth is there's no such thing as competition on today's railway (open access excepted). No matter who the passenger travels with the revenue goes to the same place and the TOC still gets their management fee. There is little incentive for a TOC to go above what the DfT specifies.

The real competition is between rail, bus and car.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The timings work well for the Scotland - Manchester TPE and Manchester - Bournemouth XC services to be merged, although you lose the Airport connectivity in the process (oh well, a change at Piccadilly isn't the end of the world, look at what connectivity you have from Heathrow!) Arriva would therefore give First some much-needed competition for Preston - Glasgow/Edinburgh. If they get Avanti's 221s they'd have enough stock to do this, and if the Greta Thunbergs of the forum take issue with Voyagers running on an electrified route, split it? Run with EMUs Scotland - Coventry and Voyagers from Birmingham - Bournemouth? Very crayonista of me.

Stop it, stop it, stop it!

What we need is a punctual, reliable, well-integrated service which can attract traffic from the real competition - the M6 and air - not a spat between two TOCs which never ends well. Thus, one TOC is best.

The real competition is between rail, bus and car.

Exactly. And air, for Scottish services. It's an almost infinite market, too, as far as rail goes.

The market is transport, not rail transport. Rail is one player in the market.

 

[Some guy]

Liverpool drivers no longer work to York, Leeds is as far as they go. Scarborough drivers only work as far as Leeds. Newcastle drivers have lost all 185 work in December so no longer sign that traction type. The above are all fairly recent decisions by the inept people (supposedly) in charge.

Inept is the best way to describe them so only York and Preston Depots are the only ones that sign the entire routes they serve respectively. No wonder so much services terminate short

The timings work well for the Scotland - Manchester TPE and Manchester - Bournemouth XC services to be merged, although you lose the Airport connectivity in the process (oh well, a change at Piccadilly isn't the end of the world, look at what connectivity you have from Heathrow!) Arriva would therefore give First some much-needed competition for Preston - Glasgow/Edinburgh. If they get Avanti's 221s they'd have enough stock to do this, and if the Greta Thunbergs of the forum take issue with Voyagers running on an electrified route, split it? Run with EMUs Scotland - Coventry and Voyagers from Birmingham - Bournemouth? Very crayonista of me

It would actually quite a useful service for the west coast to get direct services to the south west especially now since the 2022 December timetable change its impossible to make the XC at wolves anymore. There’s already 3 trains per hour between Preston and Manchester Airport so it would work really well

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Stop it, stop it, stop it!

What we need is a punctual, reliable, well-integrated service which can attract traffic from the real competition - the M6 and air - not a spat between two TOCs which never ends well.

And yet, in the most ironic scenario possible, you want to give the route to Avanti of all people.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would actually quite a useful service for the west coast to get direct services to the south west especially now since the 2022 December timetable change its impossible to make the XC and wolves anymore. There’s already 3 trains per hour between Preston and Manchester Airport so it would work really well

Breaking Manchester to Scotland would be beyond stupid, it's proven itself as a major flow despite having only a couple of trains a day back in the 90s. Going to the Airport I think (unsurprisingly) is less important, though you could run that way instead of Stockport. I think you might find the "Posh South Manchester Parkway" aspect of running via Stockport might attract a fair few business travellers as against flying, whereas the Airport itself may not due to the staggering cost of parking.

And yet, in the most ironic scenario possible, you want to give the route to Avanti of all people.

I might want to remove Avanti from FirstGroup too, indeed I do, though it has pulled back from the brink a bit. However north WCML express services should be one TOC.

XC on the other hand, you think they and their nasty, overcrowded Voyagers and excessively high fares are a good TOC to bring in? In 2019 I'd have said they were one of the worst.

 

[Some guy]

Breaking Manchester to Scotland would be beyond stupid, it's proven itself as a major flow despite having only a couple of trains a day back in the 90s Going to the Airport I think (unsurprisingly) is less
Important.

I agree the services should still route via Manchester and then only the xx:27 path out of Manchester towards reading/Bournemouth

 

[daodao]

I agree the services should still route via Manchester and then only the xx:27 path out of Manchester towards reading/Bournemouth

No long distance trains should be running via Castlefield, so Manchester-Scotland services should terminate at Victoria. All services from Crewe/Stoke and beyond should terminate in the main shed at Piccadilly.