Future of Virgin trains name

[Geezertronic]

Hell, some people think they are travelling on a Virgin train when using EC services at the moment anyway!

I would think that more people still think XC services are operated by Virgin Trains than current East Coast Trains

 

[dk1]

I can guarantee for a whole host of reasons they will not be crossworking in that manner. It very rarely happened even in the Virgin XC days (when there was a lot more similarity in terms of stock and crossover).

Exactly. Everything must be kept separate incase a franchise ever fails then it must stand alone.

 

[Wolfie]

I can see this getting confusing at Edinburgh Waverley with two Virgin operators.

People at quite a lot of stations handled Virgin operating both West Coast and Cross Country for years easily enough....

I sincerely hope that InterCity is not going to be allowed as a brand name. I was under the impression that it remains 'owned' by the powers that be....

That may be why the company is called "Inter City" and not "InterCity".... of course if the "brand" does remain owned by the powers that be (is it a trademark and has that been kept up?) it potentially has a (declining as the period when it has not been in active use for is increasing) financial value which said powers that be might just decide to exercise...

 

[Bletchleyite]

People at quite a lot of stations handled Virgin operating both West Coast and Cross Country for years easily enough...

They were treated as the same thing in ticketing terms, though. It was even the case that route VIRGIN XC ONLY/VIRGIN WC ONLY tickets, where they still existed in the early days, were accepted on the other one.

The service difference (e.g. 1st catering) was Voyager to Pendolino, and that was pretty visible.

Neil

 

[DownSouth]

That may be why the company is called "Inter City" and not "InterCity".... of course if the "brand" does remain owned by the powers that be (is it a trademark and has that been kept up?) it potentially has a (declining as the period when it has not been in active use for is increasing) financial value which said powers that be might just decide to exercise...

If it is still a registered trademark, I expect that it would be very difficult to defend in court owing to the combination of a protracted period of non-use and being diluted by generic use - for example in the naming of certain franchises.

 

[dosxuk]

EDINBRUGH -> LONDON TERMINALS route: VIRGIN TRNS ONLY. ????

Just rename the restriction codes to V WEST CST ONLY / V EAST CST ONLY.

Job done.

 

[Starmill]

Just rename the restriction codes to V WEST CST ONLY / V EAST CST ONLY.

Job done.

The routes (rather than restriction codes, which dictate time-based restrictions) in use on this flow currently include:

EC & CONNECTNS
✠AP RUGBY
VIRGIN TRNS ONLY

AP EC TRNS ONLY
✠VWC & CONNECTNS
is also in use.

Seems like quite a lot to rationalise.

 

[dosxuk]

The routes (rather than restriction codes, which dictate time-based restrictions) in use on this flow currently include:

EC & CONNECTNS
✠AP RUGBY
VIRGIN TRNS ONLY

AP EC TRNS ONLY
✠VWC & CONNECTNS
is also in use.

Seems like quite a lot to rationalise.

VEC & CONNECTNS
✠AP RUGBY
V WEST CST ONLY

AP VEC TRNS ONLY
✠VWC & CONNECTNS

...then. Codes get changed every time a franchise changes hands / brands anyway, it's not like this will be creating a load of unforeseen work.

 

[Starmill]

Indeed. I'm simply pointing out that a number of different routes will need to be changed in name and all of them checked thoroughly to ensure they aren't ambiguous.

 

[Clip]

Myself I would have not given East Coast to any company who wants to use Virgin branding for its trains, it will lead to total confusion with tickets for the general public. You will find people turning up with a ticket for Glasgow at Kings Cross getting on a Virgin train only to find there ticket is from Euston to Glasgow and can,t understand why they can,t use it , since East Coast is a Virgin train on the outside branding wise but franchise company wise a totally differant company.

Why would they do that? Ive just pulled out a ticket from my journey to Edinburgh the other week and whilst the ticket itself says 'London Terminals' the reservation says 'London Kings Cross' and I am pretty sure the same would be for a journey to/from Euston.

It really isn't rocket science* and if you have an open ticket then you can go anyway you jolly well please so what is the issue?



*Granted some people are thick but your reservation tells you what station to use.

 

[Retorus]

Thick people will always find a way, though.

 

[jon0844]

The new style tickets, when they finally roll out everywhere, should make things a bit easier again.

Goodness knows why it's taking so long.

 

[Starmill]

So it seems the new route descriptors are:
VTWC & CONNECTNS
VTEC & CONNECTNS

and

VTWC TRAINS ONLY
VT E COAST ONLY

Go figure!

 

[SaveECRewards]

Why would they do that? Ive just pulled out a ticket from my journey to Edinburgh the other week and whilst the ticket itself says 'London Terminals' the reservation says 'London Kings Cross' and I am pretty sure the same would be for a journey to/from Euston.

It really isn't rocket science* and if you have an open ticket then you can go anyway you jolly well please so what is the issue?



*Granted some people are thick but your reservation tells you what station to use.

You can get fully flex (i.e. no reservation required) tickets that have restrictions on certain TOCs.

Oddly enough last time I looked from London - Edinburgh the west coast only ticket was more expensive than the any permitted ticket.

There's also a slightly cheaper east coast only fare.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oddly enough last time I looked from London - Edinburgh the west coast only ticket was more expensive than the any permitted ticket.

Only seems to be the case for First Class, but that is indeed true. Hopefully nobody is selling any of the WC Only ones.

 

[SaveECRewards]

Only seems to be the case for First Class, but that is indeed true. Hopefully nobody is selling any of the WC Only ones.

Perhaps someone buys the most expensive ticket if their employer is paying so they can get more Nectar points!

It's obviously just a mistake fare that's not being rectified and I'm sure anyone getting anytime tickets would go for the EC only or Any Permitted options with the limited WC options there's no reason to get an anytime ticket tied to that route.

 

[387star]

Saw it mentioned somewhere but out of interest why the hell do people still think crosscountry is run by virgin pushing a decade well eight years since arriva took over?!!!

Only the other day I heard someone describing it as Virgin

 

[telstarbox]

Same rolling stock on similar routes (and Virgin West Coast run Voyagers too). A lot of people still think British Rail runs the trains - work that one out

 

[SaveECRewards]

Saw it mentioned somewhere but out of interest why the hell do people still think crosscountry is run by virgin pushing a decade well eight years since arriva took over?!!!

Only the other day I heard someone describing it as Virgin

I've seen worse. On Twitter I've seen people Tweet VTEC about Greater Anglia services. Another complaining to VTEC their train had one carriage (obviously one of the regional operators). There's loads of people who don't know who run their trains.

 

[Pigeon]

I don't see why any of that should be surprising at all. It's because nobody cares. All people are interested in is that the trains run. They're not interested in who runs them. They are run by the train people, who are Virgin, possibly, who are British Rail because Richard Branson bought them, or something, or was it Alan Sugar, anyway, it's still the double arrow because that's what's on the sign outside the station. They're no good, anyway, it's late again, and it's bound to be packed like it always is, they ought to sort it out. Greater Anglia? Well they must be part of Virgin, because it's all British Rail, isn't it, so I'll complain to Virgin so it goes straight to the top.

Even for those who do care a bit, it's a confusing tangled mess which keeps changing and you have to care quite a lot to want to bother to follow it accurately.

I've always considered it daft that the TOCs are so obsessed with branding when it's the last thing the actual passengers care about. People want the trains to be on time, comfortable, reasonably priced, etc; they're not interested in what colour they are, and all the branding obsession achieves is to generate comments about "oh, they've changed the paint again" with the unspoken coda that punctuality, comfort, fares and so on have not changed and aren't expected to and why do they keep wasting money on paint. It's particularly irrelevant since for most journeys - especially regular ones - the choice of operator is fixed by where you are and when you need to travel, so you have to catch the 8:32 from Little Wobbley no matter what colour it is this week.

After all, a vacuum cleaner is a hoover, and a ball-point pen is a biro, no matter who actually manufactured the specific items in question.

 

[3141]

Same rolling stock on similar routes (and Virgin West Coast run Voyagers too). A lot of people still think British Rail runs the trains - work that one out

Same as my wife still referring to the Gas Board, and the way I still think of that Underground station at Charing Cross BR as Strand and the one by the river as Charing Cross. And I refer to "the river" because I'm originally from London.

 

[jopsuk]

This is where Scotrail has been a success- it was Scotrail under BR (Regional Railways), National Express called their franchise Scotrail, no normal person in normal conversation ever called it "First Scotrail" and now the brand is controlled by Transport Scotland.

 

[tsr]

Saw it mentioned somewhere but out of interest why the hell do people still think crosscountry is run by virgin pushing a decade well eight years since arriva took over?!!!

Only the other day I heard someone describing it as Virgin

a) As above, people aren't usually that interested.
b) The Virgin brand was synonymous with CrossCountry for a long time and still seems to be in public consciousness
c) There's not overly much effort to brand it as "Arriva" CrossCountry, in my experience

I can almost guarantee that the majority of XC passengers would, if asked, probably agree if you suggested Virgin had something to do with the franchise or its branding.

As an anecdote unrelated to Virgin but showing how these things become confusing, my father (a regular Southern and Tube customer) still insists that Midland Mainline still operate as a company and run trains out of London Euston. He completely denies the difference between them and London Midland, and in fact is always quite complimentary about London Midland because "he used to use them a couple of times and they always offered him free coffee". Hey ho...

 

[pdq]

I think Virgin is still associated with XC because the trains still have a similarity to the Pendolinos: streamlined nose and a silver base. And as mentioned above, no particularly noticeable branding over and above 'Cross Country'.

 

[JaJaWa]

Same as my wife still referring to the Gas Board, and the way I still think of that Underground station at Charing Cross BR as Strand and the one by the river as Charing Cross. And I refer to "the river" because I'm originally from London.

And the same as you referring to Charing Cross NR as Charing Cross BR

 

[SaveECRewards]

And the same as you referring to Charing Cross NR as Charing Cross BR

I do that too, I think it's people who grew up with BR tend to use it when referring to stations!