Future of Wrexham-Bidston line, inc. possible franchise swap etc.

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Where exactly would you have it? You have Rock Ferry and Green Lane less than a mile apart and you want to put another station in-between? 3 x stations in less than a mile? The platforms would almost be touching each other.

What is the bus service provision in the area referred to?

 

[Polarbear]

What is the bus service provision in the area referred to?

Buses operate from Prenton to Liverpool every 10 minutes daytime (Mon-Sat), less frequently evenings & Sundays, but overall provide a good service level. The main issue with buses is congestion at peak times & also that certain services are very busy (I frequently use this to get to work & the first bus to Liverpool on weekdays is often full).

 

[Rhydgaled]

From a Welsh Governement oral statement in the Senedd today.

"Now, the spine of our metro in north Wales will be a major upgrade of the Borderlands line to offer turn-up-and-go services from Wrexham, and through working with Merseytravel, deliver services all the way through to Liverpool. We will develop our key hubs, for example at Shotton, to provide an interchange between rail services, as well as integrated bus services across our regional hubs. To effectively deliver integrated, attractive services across the north Wales coast and the Borderlands line, we need new all-stop commuter services to complement faster long distance services running on an upgraded, electrified mainline."

Make of it what you will!

https://record.assembly.wales/Plenary/6258#A56458

"new all-stop commuter services to complement faster long distance services running on an upgraded, electrified mainline". Some joined up thinking going on here; NOT. I expect additional Chester-Llandudno/Holyhead stoppers would need to be overtaken by fast trains and Network Rail recently removed at least one location where that could have happened (in one direction anyway). I suppose the enhanced acceleration from electric traction might avoid the need to overtake, but where are the TfW units able to utilise electric traction in north Wales? Unless you count the 230s, they simply don't exist.

If there were chords between the two routes at Shotton you could run hourly Wrexham-Bidston, Bidston - Shotton - Chester and Wrexham - Shotton - Rhyl services instead of half-hourly Wrexham-Bidston. That might allow all stations on the Wrexham-Bidston route to be served every half hour, at the cost of stations north of Shotton only being linked with those south thereof once an hour.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

"new all-stop commuter services to complement faster long distance services running on an upgraded, electrified mainline". Some joined up thinking going on here; NOT. I expect additional Chester-Llandudno/Holyhead stoppers would need to be overtaken by fast trains and Network Rail recently removed at least one location where that could have happened (in one direction anyway). I suppose the enhanced acceleration from electric traction might avoid the need to overtake, but where are the TfW units able to utilise electric traction in north Wales? Unless you count the 230s, they simply don't exist.

Presumably, you could on the current infrastructure do something like: Half-hourly Chester-Llandudno stoppers, with an hourly (or even half-hourly) fast train leaving Chester just before the stopper. I doubt a fast train could be that much faster than a stopper to make that unworkable.

If there were chords between the two routes at Shotton you could run hourly Wrexham-Bidston, Bidston - Shotton - Chester and Wrexham - Shotton - Rhyl services instead of half-hourly Wrexham-Bidston. That might allow all stations on the Wrexham-Bidston route to be served every half hour, at the cost of stations north of Shotton only being linked with those south thereof once an hour.

Those would have to be remarkable chords to allow the trains using them to stop at Shotton both when going Bidston-Chester and when when going Wrexham-Rhyl!

 

[krus_aragon]

Presumably, you could on the current infrastructure do something like: Half-hourly Chester-Llandudno stoppers, with an hourly (or even half-hourly) fast train leaving Chester just before the stopper. I doubt a fast train could be that much faster than a stopper to make that unworkable.

I've left some comments along these lines, with some numbers, over on another thread, here.

 

[8H]

Buses operate from Prenton to Liverpool every 10 minutes daytime (Mon-Sat), less frequently evenings & Sundays, but overall provide a good service level. The main issue with buses is congestion at peak times & also that certain services are very busy (I frequently use this to get to work & the first bus to Liverpool on weekdays is often full).

The “problem” with very many bus routes on the Wirral is that they run to and from Liverpool City Centre. Formerly (pre PTE) only night buses ran through the Birkenhead tunnel when the ferry services stopped around midnight. This shift has greatly encouraged and established bus only travel mode. Couple this with the persistent problem of getting modal shift from cars which barely happened outside the Greater London area and you get low train usage. When you add to this overall situation a Borderlands service that only calls at Heswall and Upton within Merseytravel area and has a rotten frequency set in stone for well over twenty years you can understand why it is neglected.For passengers from Cheshire and North Wales a stone age non inter available and non multi modal ticketing regime with higher fares than parallel routes to Liverpool also stifles possible demand, as does connecting at Bidston rather than Birkenhead North or a through service. Given the recent partnership thinking between the Welsh and English authorities however a genuine big change in the fortunes of the route looks achievable and advantageous for passengers all along it.

 

[frodshamfella]

I have traveled on this route a few times, just got a bit of a run and noticed it was well used, so certainly a more frequent and improved service would be welcomed by regular users.

 

[Djgr]

The “problem” with very many bus routes on the Wirral is that they run to and from Liverpool City Centre. Formerly (pre PTE) only night buses ran through the Birkenhead tunnel when the ferry services stopped around midnight. This shift has greatly encouraged and established bus only travel mode. Couple this with the persistent problem of getting modal shift from cars which barely happened outside the Greater London area and you get low train usage. When you add to this overall situation a Borderlands service that only calls at Heswall and Upton within Merseytravel area and has a rotten frequency set in stone for well over twenty years you can understand why it is neglected.For passengers from Cheshire and North Wales a stone age non inter available and non multi modal ticketing regime with higher fares than parallel routes to Liverpool also stifles possible demand, as does connecting at Bidston rather than Birkenhead North or a through service. Given the recent partnership thinking between the Welsh and English authorities however a genuine big change in the fortunes of the route looks achievable and advantageous for passengers all along it.

With a decent frequent through service to Liverpool a park and ride to Liverpool from Prenton/Woodchurch would work. Look at Birkenhead North. Expanded to 630 car parking spaces (from originally about 6!) and still full every day.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Thinking a bit more about the desirability of through services to Liverpool, and the likely need for electrification to allow that:

As a medium-term aspiration, would it work if you electrified just from Bidston to Neston, and ran through services from Neston to Liverpool, with a diesel shuttle from Neston to Wrexham, timed to connect to the Liverpool services. That could possibly be combined with the suggested Prenton station.

I realise that's not as good as running through services from Liverpool all the way to Wrexham, but the required infrastructure would be an awful lot cheaper. And, on the assumption that the vast majority of Liverpool commuters will be travelling from Neston or further North, you'd still get most of the benefits.

 

[Gareth]

Merseytravel did have a plan to extend Merseyrail to a new terminus at Woodchurch, just off Junction 3 of the M53. It included a new intermediate station between Upton and Bidston at Beechwood. For whatever reason, they parked it a few years ago.

Part of the problem with that end of the line is that it doesn’t take a particularly direct alignment towards Birkenhead and Liverpool. It would need to justify a fairly frequent service (I reckon 4tph) to effectively compete with the local bus services.

Partially electrifying the line also compromises the convenience of passengers changing to/from the rump diesel service. Bidston currently offers 4tph into Liverpool and 4tph to Bidston. The new extension would have to have 4tph to retain the convenience for changing; even then, West Kirby branch stations become two changes away, although that direction is obviously much less important.

So, for, me, it has to be either all or nothing. To be honest, I don’t think the line is a good fit for Merseyrail. It goes too far out of the area. I think the likes of Southport and Chester are the absolute limit, distance-wise for a high frequency all-stops service with no onboard toilets. Even those are pushing it a bit.

My ideal preference is for it to be re-extended to Birkenhead North with an extra track added between there and Bidston Junction, complete with layout alterations so that it can be operationally separate from Merseyrail. Birkenhead North offers double the frequency into Liverpool that Bidston has plus direct services towards New Brighton. Borderlands services could perhaps skip Bidston and Bidston could even be closed or relocated if its role as an interchange were to end.

 

[mwmbwls]

IIRC Merseytravel have ordered a battery bi-mode class 777s in the first tranche of Stadler stock. They have an option for an additional 15 trains (60 carriages) to the first tranche of 52 trains (208 carriages). The Mersey Loop platforms/track have been tailored for this stock to have level access so 230's may or may not fit. Does anybody have more definitive information?

https://www.railwaygazette.com/news.../battery-trial-planned-for-new-emu-fleet.html

 

[algytaylor]

Looking on rail miles, Chester is about 18miles/40mins by train, Wrexham is 27miles/100mins by train. To be, that's some discrepancy for two lines with, I'd guess, similar frequencies of stations (or Borderlands marginally lower). Maybe I'm naive here, but if it were a direct service to Liverpool you ought to be able to manage the journey in 1hr.

I think on that journey time, you could conceivably have a 20 minutely service from Wrexham to Liverpool, which would just about qualify as turn-up-and-go in my eyes.

 

[daikilo]

I have long thought that a 4tph electric service from Shotton to Liverpool with a new station at a Deeside Parkway (cross with A548 and the Industrial Park) with 2tph extended to Wrexham (maybe battery) could be the optimum. I would also add the stations discussed above plus one at Little Neston/Ness.

 

[Bevan Price]

I have long thought that a 4tph electric service from Shotton to Liverpool with a new station at a Deeside Parkway (cross with A548 and the Industrial Park) with 2tph extended to Wrexham (maybe battery) could be the optimum. I would also add the stations discussed above plus one at Little Neston/Ness.

Can the Liverpool Loop & related infrastructure cater for another 4 trains per hour without risking the timetable becoming chaotic? We have already seen in the Manchester area when they try to put too many trains through bottlenecks like Castlefield Jn.

(Yes, I know parts of the London Underground have more trains per hour - but with a simpler timetable plan rather than trying to serve 5 separate destinations from the central core.)

 

[Gareth]

I'm pretty sure it can. Also, it is pretty simple really: a single track loop. The separate lines aren't relevant until Hamilton Square and the junction is grade separated.

 

[daikilo]

An additional 4tph to Shotton plus 4 to West Kirby and 4 to New Brighton would make the flat junctions at Bidston and west of Birkenhead North busier but still workable. The junction at Hamilton Square has been a dive-under for nearly 50 years and of course Liverpool is a loop.

 

[Djgr]

Merseytravel did have a plan to extend Merseyrail to a new terminus at Woodchurch, just off Junction 3 of the M53. It included a new intermediate station between Upton and Bidston at Beechwood. For whatever reason, they parked it a few years ago.

Part of the problem with that end of the line is that it doesn’t take a particularly direct alignment towards Birkenhead and Liverpool. It would need to justify a fairly frequent service (I reckon 4tph) to effectively compete with the local bus services.

Partially electrifying the line also compromises the convenience of passengers changing to/from the rump diesel service. Bidston currently offers 4tph into Liverpool and 4tph to Bidston. The new extension would have to have 4tph to retain the convenience for changing; even then, West Kirby branch stations become two changes away, although that direction is obviously much less important.

So, for, me, it has to be either all or nothing. To be honest, I don’t think the line is a good fit for Merseyrail. It goes too far out of the area. I think the likes of Southport and Chester are the absolute limit, distance-wise for a high frequency all-stops service with no onboard toilets. Even those are pushing it a bit.

My ideal preference is for it to be re-extended to Birkenhead North with an extra track added between there and Bidston Junction, complete with layout alterations so that it can be operationally separate from Merseyrail. Birkenhead North offers double the frequency into Liverpool that Bidston has plus direct services towards New Brighton. Borderlands services could perhaps skip Bidston and Bidston could even be closed or relocated if its role as an interchange were to end.

But don't forget Bidston has around 200,000 rail passengers per annum in its own right (i.e. not coming off the Wrexham train), driven by another substantial park and ride carpark.

 

[Gareth]

That's fine then. I was just thinking aloud.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But don't forget Bidston has around 200,000 rail passengers per annum in its own right (i.e. not coming off the Wrexham train), driven by another substantial park and ride carpark.

Though given that the rest of the Wirral is pretty well served by electrified Merseyrail lines, I'd venture the opinion that most of those P&R passengers are there because the Borderlands Line service is inadequate for their needs, and may well switch to that if it gains a quality, frequent through service to Liverpool.

 

[jamesst]

I'm pretty sure it can. Also, it is pretty simple really: a single track loop. The separate lines aren't relevant until Hamilton Square and the junction is grade separated.

I'd put a note of caution on that, the loop can already struggle with 14 per hour. Quite often the Ellesmere Ports can leave the loop a few mins late as they're generally directly behind a New Brighton service. Plus a train going into the loop a few mins late can throw the schedule out for up to 30mins, hence the semi fasts that frequently occur on the Chester line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd put a note of caution on that, the loop can already struggle with 14 per hour.

The loop as built was signalled for 30tph, if I recall correctly. It has been reduced since then, but it really shouldn't be struggling like that - LU doesn't. What is causing it? Sloppy operations, probably? And inadequate layovers at the outer end (particularly Chester) which means trains enter it late?

 

[Mogz]

On Merseyside, the experience has always been very much “build it and they will come”.

If you give a high frequency service with extra stations, people will use it. On the Wirral many people commute by car to Chester and Liverpool.


The Borderlands line could help alleviate that considerably.

An ambitious plan could include the following:

1. New stations at Beechwood, Woodchurch for Prenton, Storeton (as a Parkway station) and another Parkway station at Gayton (on the A540, which is the main North-South thoroughfare on West Wirral and which sees considerable road commuter traffic), Little Neston and (most importantly) Deeside Industrial Park.

You could even give the isolated village of Burton it’s service back (perhaps as a request stop) given the station closed in 1955 but it was never demolished and is still there like a ghost!

2. A high frequency service, at least as far as Shotton.

3. Consideration being given to establishing a spur just before Shotton onto the North Wales Coast line for direct services to Chester.

4. Consideration to reeestablishing the Bidston triangle giving the option of through services to Wallasey and New Brighton, which are both densely populated urban areas.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Shotton will get hourly direct services to Lime St soon enough so I'm not sure I'd go that far. I'd be more inclined to extend Merseyrail, as its existing concept (though possibly batteries if more third rail is a definite no), as far as a new station in south Neston, with the Borderlands Line truncated back there as per Ormskirk and Kirkby (the shorter run would also improve punctuality). Or maybe to Shotton, though the line really changes character south of Neston and there would be arguably little point running 4tph (a classic Merseyrail branch frequency) through there. Perhaps half of them.

 

[Djgr]

Though given that the rest of the Wirral is pretty well served by electrified Merseyrail lines, I'd venture the opinion that most of those P&R passengers are there because the Borderlands Line service is inadequate for their needs, and may well switch to that if it gains a quality, frequent through service to Liverpool.

Whilst essentially agreeing with you, general experience is that Merseyrail park and rides fill up as quickly as they build them. Some of the Bidston Park and Ride customers are probably overspill from Wallasey Grove Road, Leasowe and Birkenhead North.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The loop as built was signalled for 30tph, if I recall correctly. It has been reduced since then, but it really shouldn't be struggling like that - LU doesn't. What is causing it? Sloppy operations, probably? And inadequate layovers at the outer end (particularly Chester) which means trains enter it late?

What is the crowding like at Liverpool Central these days? I'm guessing, an awful lot more than when the line was opened. If a train spends a minute or more picking up/setting off passengers, and the next train was scheduled to be only 2-3 minutes behind, then I'd imagine that, even with signalling for 30 tph, you could start to encounter problems. Could that be an issue? (The irony there is of course that more frequent trains ought to reduce the numbers boarding on each train).

 

[Djgr]

What is the crowding like at Liverpool Central these days? I'm guessing, an awful lot more than when the line was opened. If a train spends a minute or more picking up/setting off passengers, and the next train was scheduled to be only 2-3 minutes behind, then I'd imagine that, even with signalling for 30 tph, you could start to encounter problems. Could that be an issue? (The irony there is of course that more frequent trains ought to reduce the numbers boarding on each train).

The Liverpool Loop was constructed with built in excess capacity because it was optimistically assumed that London would be forced to hand over jobs to be transferred to lower cost, higher employee quality locations, thereby increasing commuting.

Of course we know that things didn't turn out quite as planned!

 

[mwmbwls]

There were suggestions last year that the Merseyrail class 777 battery option was not feasible but recent reports speak of trains being supplied with batteries. Does anybody know the definitive situation? How feasible would a partial extension of third rail electrification be - if Wrexham was a step too far?

 

[Bletchleyite]

There were suggestions last year that the Merseyrail class 777 battery option was not feasible but recent reports speak of trains being supplied with batteries. Does anybody know the definitive situation? How feasible would a partial extension of third rail electrification be - if Wrexham was a step too far?

I thought I wasn't going mad and that I too had read it was off the table - but it does seem to be back on.

 

[Meerkat]

Shotton will get hourly direct services to Lime St soon enough so I'm not sure I'd go that far.

Shotton means serving Deeside Industrial Park- commuting opportunities. I wouldn’t go beyond Shotton though.

Merseyrail park and rides fill up as quickly as they build them

Filled up from where? If it’s locals then not sure P&R should be encouraged, if it’s from further n the P&R spaces should be further out.

I thought I wasn't going mad and that I too had read it was off the table - but it does seem to be back on.

Does it though - or is it uninformed people requoting each other? I haven’t seen anything at all official sounding since reading that it wouldn’t work. I do wonder if the batteries for moving round the depot are getting confused with service potential batteries??

 

[mwmbwls]

Does it though - or is it uninformed people requoting each other? I haven’t seen anything at all official sounding since reading that it wouldn’t work. I do wonder if the batteries for moving round the depot are getting confused with service potential batteries??

https://railway-news.com/first-stadler-train-merseyrail-begins-dynamic-testing/ - It depends how credible the source is.

According to Merseytravel, ‘we want to be able to prove the concept that we could run beyond the third rail’. By storing recovered braking energy, the batteries would help to reduce power demand and the resulting greenhouse gas emissions. All of the Class 777s will be fitted with small batteries to allow independent movement around workshop and maintenance facilities.

https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/merseyrail-class-777-arrives-in-liverpool/55686.article