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Future Scottish Railway Projects

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scotsman

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Borders Railway
Edinburgh Airport Link
Glasgow Airport Link
Glasgow Crossrail

http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/projects/rail-projects

Does anybody know of any other new Scottish Railway projects that might happen some time this century.

Only the Borders Railway will happen, and that's because it is legally obliged to happen. The wonderful SNP scrapped EARL and GARL, and the economic climate means G'town X-Rail is rather unlikely too.
 

DaveNewcastle

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I'm confused. You've been discussing exactly this subject on this thread only yesterday http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=36643 so its not clear why it suddenly becomes another thread.

For example
The next franchise would include proposals for :
Renewal of rail line between Wemyss Bay and Largs (not likely)
Renewal of rail line between Paisley Canal and Kilmacolm (possibly reduced to Elderslie and Kilmacolm)
National Rail Timetable (for Scotland)
Upgrade rail line between Glasgow and Edinburgh, via Carstairs, with a 60 minute frequency and journey time of between 35 and 40 minutes
Double deck trains in Ayrshire (not likely now)
The Airdrie to Bathgate line would never have happened if the Scottish Parliament hadn,t existed.
Simply as.

Anyway, if the question is specifically
. . . that might happen some time this century.
then we have to consider more electrification in the Central Belt, possible improvements and extensions in South Strathclyde and East Lothian (Dunbar, Haddington, East Linton).

But I'd actually be more worried to know if some of what we have now survives until the end of the century. Some of the classic viaducts at Glenfiddich, Culloden, Killiecrankie might become hard to maintain. Bridges may weaken. Tunnels may fail. Some of Glasgow's cut and cover low level lines may become unsafe, and in particular, do we honestly think that the Glasgow Subway will still be running in 2100?
 
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Nightrider

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Thank you for pointing that out DaveNewcastle.
The original thread was about a bus company getting their franchise for Scottish Railways extended.
I including myself in the thread being derailed.
Sorry about that.
As for Scottish Railways falling down around about us, your correct, hopefully more pressure can be put on our "wee parliament" to spend on Scottish Railway infrastructure bigtime.
 

rail-britain

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As is typical with the Transport Scotland website an old report is in place
In this case it still shows the Glasgow Airport project which has been downgraded to the Paisley Corridor Improvement

Other projects due over the next few years :
Highland Main Line Improvement (Perth - Inverness)
Grampian Main Line Improvement (Aberdeen - Inverness)
Edinburgh - Glasgow QS electrification (including Falkirk Grahamston and Dunblane)
South Glasgow electrification (Glasgow Central to Whifflet, East Kilbride, Kilmarnock, and Paisley Canal)
Glasgow South West Improvement (Girvan - Kilmarnock - Carlisle)
 
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MidnightFlyer

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Isn't the Paisley thing still on? I know there's currently mass platform extensions going on all stations SW of Glasgow towards Paisley G St-Gourock/Wemyss Bay/Largs/Ardrossan/Ayr in time for 380s intro. Think all stuff out to N Berwick is OK. Whats happening to the stock displaced by the 380s?
 

scotsman

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Isn't the Paisley thing still on? I know there's currently mass platform extensions going on all stations SW of Glasgow towards Paisley G St-Gourock/Wemyss Bay/Largs/Ardrossan/Ayr in time for 380s intro. Think all stuff out to N Berwick is OK. Whats happening to the stock displaced by the 380s?
The 334s, 318s, 320s and 314s are all getting new duties - notably the 334s will be working A2B. The 322s are going off lease (sad times, pretty much means North Berwick will be added to DOO territory)
 

route:oxford

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Does anybody know of any other new Scottish Railway projects that might happen some time this century.

Probably happen...

Re-doubling of the Alloa line (I suspect that if the original forecasts had been accurate, it would have been done from outset).

Re-opening of Alloa-Kincardine-Dunfermline for passenger services.

Socially Interesting...

Something North of Aberdeen would be good for the area... Peterhead/Fraserburgh?

Far too Expensive, but the right thing to do...

Dig right down under Buchanan Street in Central Glasgow and build the underground terminus of HS2, along with a high standard shopping centre that links into the stores above. It should also link directly into Queen Street and Glasgow Central so in one swift, albeit expensive, move Glasgow joins the HS2 network, improves city centre shopping and gives a direct link between the two "heritage" line stations.
 

CarterUSM

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The 334s, 318s, 320s and 314s are all getting new duties - notably the 334s will be working A2B. The 322s are going off lease (sad times, pretty much means North Berwick will be added to DOO territory)



Not at all, the 4 car 380's will be/are equipped for guard operation, to be used between Glasgow / Edinburgh - North Berwick / Dunbar. :)
 

rail-britain

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Isn't the Paisley thing still on?
Yes, see my post above, the Glasgow Airport project has been downgraded to the Paisley Corridor Improvement
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Probably happen...
Re-doubling of the Alloa line (I suspect that if the original forecasts had been accurate, it would have been done from outset).

Re-opening of Alloa-Kincardine-Dunfermline for passenger services
There is no mention of any type of upgrade for the section of line between Stirling and Alloa
However, there are already plans for extending passenger services between Alloa and Inverkeithing / Dunfermline
Ironically this would include a second platform at Alloa, associated trackwork, and resignalling
 
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DaveNewcastle

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Far too Expensive, but the right thing to do...

Dig right down under Buchanan Street in Central Glasgow and build the underground terminus of HS2, along with a high standard shopping centre that links into the stores above. It should also link directly into Queen Street and Glasgow Central so in one swift, albeit expensive, move Glasgow joins the HS2 network, improves city centre shopping and gives a direct link between the two "heritage" line stations.
If you take the OP's question literally, "before the end of the century", then that sort of thing might well happen.
We can hardly begin to imagine what Buchanan St will look like in 90 years - a lot of the fine Edwardian and Victorial buildings we've preserved and restored in our city centres may no longer be fit-for purpose or wanted.

I'd take a punt and say that if we're still using and developing railways as a primary form of personal travel, then that's one change that is likely!

the Glasgow Airport project has been downgraded to the Paisley Corridor Improvement
And I'd also presume that both GARL and EARL would be resurrected before the end of the Century (assuming in this case that we're still using railways and aeroplane as primary forms of personal travel).
 

rail-britain

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Not at all, the 4 car 380's will be/are equipped for guard operation, to be used between Glasgow / Edinburgh - North Berwick / Dunbar
The Class 380s could be operated under DOO on North Berwick services
Similar to Class 334s the equipment is on the trains rather than on the platforms

Equally, Class 380s could also be used between Airdrie and Bathgate
I personally suspect they will at some point, given how many spares there will be
For example, a diagram that runs :
Glasgow C - North Berwick - Edinburgh - Helensburgh - Edinburgh - North Berwick - Glasgow C
 

me123

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I can think of a number of projects that I'd like to see happen, that would be realistic, and that would benefit the communities concerned.

Upgrading Aberdeen-Inverness is a must. The services are very well used, and upgrading the line to allow an hourly service will benefit the towns and cities along the route.

I'll start with the one I said on the other thread. Kirkintilloch would be an excellent extension to the rail network. I can envisage a Charing Cross-Kirky service calling at Queen St Low Level, High Street, Bellgrove, Duke St, Alexandra Parade, Barnhill, Springburn, Bishopbriggs, Lenzie and Kirkintilloch. However, it would be expensive and difficult (if not impossible) because such a move would undoubtedly involve 4-tracking the line between Cowlairs and Lenzie, and probably need a flyover as well.

There's also the St Andrew's Rail Link. A feasibility study will soon be under way for this. That's another excellent link to the main rail network, given the huge amounts of traffic in and out of this small town. However, my question to the campaigners would be how the services would flight into the timetable without removing existing services. Fife's already busy and the Forth Bridge must be close to capacity (of not already there). And there's no point replacing the (admittedly very good) bus link with a shuttle train; through services are needed.

Stirling-Dunfermline is, in my eyes, a no-brainer. It would be relatively cheap to upgrade the SAK line for passenger services, build new stations (at, for example; Clackmannan, Kincardine, maybe somewhere else? I don't know the route well enough), and perhaps terminus facilities at Dunfermline Town (a new platform would be ideal). You could then run 2tph Glasgow-Alloa, one of which continues to Dunfermline. And the existing Glasgow-Dunblane service would cease and be replaced by the proposed Glasgow-Perth(-Dundee-Arbroath?) service.

I think that, in the medium- to long-term, the Scottish Government will eventually be pressured to electrify all the way up to Aberdeen in order to retain direct Aberdeen-London trains. Of course, there are also benefits for Scottish domestic services as well. Improving the corridor by upgrading the speed, electrifying and improving rolling stock in the future will help these key corridors develop.

I can't speak for EARL but GARL... I'm not sure that we'll see it back in its original form. The one issue I always had with GARL (as much as I supported the general principles) was that 4tph through Paisley were being sent off on a short spur to the airport, which meant that existing services through Paisley would have less room for future enhancement. And I think that over the coming decades we will see more frequent Ayrshire and Inverclyde services, and consequently GARL could not exist the way it was planned. I'd like to see it reinstated without affecting the existing corridor through Paisley. Perhaps a new line serving Ibrox, Govan and Renfrew ERT Glasgow Airport would be possible in the future. I don't think it would be too bad if it just followed the M8, although it would be a lot more expensive than the existing plan.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Class 380s could be operated under DOO on North Berwick services
Similar to Class 334s the equipment is on the trains rather than on the platforms

Equally, Class 380s could also be used between Airdrie and Bathgate
I personally suspect they will at some point, given how many spares there will be
For example, a diagram that runs :
Glasgow C - North Berwick - Edinburgh - Helensburgh - Edinburgh - North Berwick - Glasgow C

I think it would be foolish not to clear 380s for the new route. At the very least, it would provide an alternative option for ECS routes between the two cities.
 

me123

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I may be opening a can of worms here, but there is the potential to operate the trains with guards, but with the drivers operating the doors. I reckon that would keep the unions happy and bring about the best of both options (driver operated doors reduces delay, and a fully trained guard is onboard at all times).
 

Nightrider

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If you take the OP's question literally, "before the end of the century", then that sort of thing might well happen.

The quote was based on the Airdrie/Bathgate line being closed to passengers for 54 years and the small matter of bring trams back to Edinburgh after a 50+ year gap.
 

CarterUSM

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I may be opening a can of worms here, but there is the potential to operate the trains with guards, but with the drivers operating the doors. I reckon that would keep the unions happy and bring about the best of both options (driver operated doors reduces delay, and a fully trained guard is onboard at all times).

Of course there is the potential me123, but it definately won't be happening before 2014. It wouldn't keep the RMT happy as they are opposed, rightly or wrongly to DOO anyway, though ASLE&F would probably be happy with that. Don't agree with guards causing delay either, certainly not where i work as you WILL be pulled up for excessive delay and you are allowed up to 30 seconds for station duties anyway which is usually only extended on busy suburban 156 services due to loading factors and some groups of passengers blind will to all board at the same door instead of utilising the rest of them! But anyway, we digress! Lets keep that can firmly closed mate!!!!!! :lol:
 

tbtc

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you are allowed up to 30 seconds for station duties anyway which is usually only extended on busy suburban 156 services due to loading factors and some groups of passengers blind will to all board at the same door instead of utilising the rest of them!

Would ScotRail have been better keeping 150s for the southern Glasgow routes, given the top speeds and wider doors?
 

DaveNewcastle

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The quote was based on the Airdrie/Bathgate line being closed to passengers for 54 years and the small matter of bring trams back to Edinburgh after a 50+ year gap.
(OK. I'm probs one of the few posters on here who can claim to have travelled on Edinburgh trams!)

But you have set an interesting question by giving us such a long time-span to consider. A lot will change in 90 years and my biggest doubts are how we will view personal transport over that time, and how ancient infrastructure can be maintained.

Its become an automatic response to criticise the Beeching cuts of the 1960's, but I'm sure that there will be more waves of "rationalisation" and "evaluation" over 90 years, and these are bound to include exactly the paradox you've quoted: the decision to close a line and to rip up a tram network, and then, within less than a century, the decision to re-open that line and to rebuild that tram network.

Most opinion on this forum are based on shorter time-spans. It will be interesting.
 

CarterUSM

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Would ScotRail have been better keeping 150s for the southern Glasgow routes, given the top speeds and wider doors?

I think so, yes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
(OK. I'm probs one of the few posters on here who can claim to have travelled on Edinburgh trams!)

But you have set an interesting question by giving us such a long time-span to consider. A lot will change in 90 years and my biggest doubts are how we will view personal transport over that time, and how ancient infrastructure can be maintained.

Its become an automatic response to criticise the Beeching cuts of the 1960's, but I'm sure that there will be more waves of "rationalisation" and "evaluation" over 90 years, and these are bound to include exactly the paradox you've quoted: the decision to close a line and to rip up a tram network, and then, within less than a century, the decision to re-open that line and to rebuild that tram network.

Most opinion on this forum are based on shorter time-spans. It will be interesting.
Spot on Dave.
 

Nightrider

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Interesting DN that you mentioned the old Edinburgh trams.

Funny to think thousands of weegies, myself included, had a journey on one such tram during the Glasgow Garden Festival in 1988 all be it painted in the old Glasgow Corporation colours.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Corporation_Tramways

The concept of time in relation to railway history gives pointers to trains safely being around 90 years from now in some form.

It seems strange to think of sections of the railway that have covered the exact same ground for the best part of the last 170 years or more.
An example would be the Glasgow Queen St-Edinburgh Haymarket line, to think some of those people living in the vicinity of the 1840s line would have remembered the news of victory at the Battle of Waterloo.
There,s a high possiblity that the 50000 estimated crowd that turned up outside Bishopbriggs Station for the public hanging of two railway labourers in May 1841 never gave a thought to the idea of the line still being around in the age of space travel.
I,d take a wager that railways covering near enough the same lines between Glasgow/Edinburgh will be around in 2100.
Whether i collect my bet or not is a different matter.
:D
 
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DaveNewcastle

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The concept of time in relation to railway history gives pointers to trains safely being around 90 years from now in some form.

It seems strange to think of sections of the railway that have covered the exact same ground for the best part of the last 170 years or more.
I agree.

Its the "in some form" that's much less clear to predict. It seems equally possible that there could be a shift away from local stopping services and mainly long-discant / inter-city rail travel, as it is possible that the reverse will be the case with more local and tram-like services replacing some car use.

The factors which are going to influence the decisions are probably equally hard to predict but are likely to include the ease of access and affordability of private cars, road management as well as investment in railways. (But are just as likely to be social, environmental and political factors). As I mentioned in an earlier post, I'm particularly concerned at the rapidly increasing cost of infrastructure maintenance into the future and I fear that this might be the downfall of the railways we've inherited from the 1900's.

And if wrong, I'll definitely not be here to pay my bet either!
 
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