G&SWR services

[70014IronDuke]

The Virgin WC diversions via Dumfries got me looking at the services on the former G&SWR line. Not really very good, are they - neither in terms of frequency or overall speed. (Granted, no normal would use the line throughout under regular conditions.)

On a weekday, OK, there are a couple of morning commuter services to Glasgow Central, but there are gaps of up to three hours during the day.

Saturdays some of the gaps are partially plugged between Dumfries and Carlisle (is that for shoppers? Carlisle Utd fans?), but on Sundays, the service is miserable. Just two trains over the whole route in the down to Glasgow (afternoon and evening), and effectively only one up train during 'normal' hours - 15.12 ex Glasgow Central. This makes the first train south in the mid section in the 16.00-hour slot - hardly encouraging travel by rail for a day out.

The second train, at 22.12, looks more like a working to get the stock back for the next day than intended to meet passenger demands.

With all the money spent on re-openings of stations and routes in Scotland, has the G&SW line been overlooked, at least south of Kilmarnock? Is there no demand for better services and/or new stations? The line skirts Cumnock, for example, but no station.

Incidentally, I see the diverted Voyagers seem to be capable of 115m timings, which makes it a mile a minute from Glasgow. What is the line speed today - 75 mph?

 

[najaB]

Incidentally, I see the diverted Voyagers seem to be capable of 115m timings, which makes it a mile a minute from Glasgow. What is the line speed today - 75 mph?

You can look it up.

 

[Tubeboy]

When I travelled on the line last year, I was the only through passenger. Dumfries was the hub. Glasgow people got off there, then Dumfries locals got on, the bulk of whom went to Carlisle.

 

[70014IronDuke]

You can look it up.

Well, thanks - but I can't find where the line speeds are - I searched the index, couldn't find it, and looked through the first 100 odd pages. Where is it then?

It sure is going to be interesting, given the now-expected month or more of VT diversions, if more attention is paid to the GSW when Lamington is fixed - or whether things will sink back to a cosy norm - rather like the initial fuss over and subsequent silence over Dawlish.

 

[Max]

This time last year my work colleagues and I had to visit Dumfries a few times to meet representatives of the local authority, who we were working for directly. It was always a complete nightmare coming up from London as the services on the G&SWR are so slow and infrequent, so if you missed your connection at Carlisle you were pretty scuppered. In the end, we ended up hiring cars off Carlisle/Glasgow instead as it simply wasn't worth taking the risk.

 

[Millisle]

The down Thames-Clyde was running 2' 20" Citadel-St Enoch in the 1962-63 timetable including booked stops of five minutes each at Dumfries and Kilmarnock. The Voyager diversions are booked for 2' 12". Deducting two minutes for a Kilmarnock stop gives the same time. The GSW is indeed very much a Cinderella line in Scotland.

 

[sprinterguy]

Well, thanks - but I can't find where the line speeds are - I searched the index, couldn't find it, and looked through the first 100 odd pages. Where is it then?

Pages 241 to 261. The sectional appendices can indeed be a right old faff on to find what you need.

In summary there would appear to be some sections of maximum 80mph between Gretna and Dumfries, with generally maximum 70mph north of there.

 

[robbeale]

I am a regular user of the whole line from Glasgow to Carlisle. The last train via Beattock to Carlisle is 2010. Via the GSW you can leave Glasgow at 2112 (2212 on a Saturday).
It's a long trip but handy for a later stay in Glasgow.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Pages 241 to 261. The sectional appendices can indeed be a right old faff on to find what you need.

In summary there would appear to be some sections of maximum 80mph between Gretna and Dumfries, with generally maximum 70mph north of there.

Thank you. I wonder if - unilke the S&C, which was a 90 mph main line - this was the norm even historically for the GS&W? I say that because I remember being on the sleeper and looking out of the window bleary eyed at seemingly endless, misty, near-tundra like (and fairly boring) landscape with the train trundling along at at around 60 mph. This was mid-60s, with Cl 45s, and would have been, I presume, in the central section between Dumfries and Kilmarnock.
It is possible, I suppose, that the trains were still on steam-timings, and hence the diesel was not being pushed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am a regular user of the whole line from Glasgow to Carlisle. The last train via Beattock to Carlisle is 2010. Via the GSW you can leave Glasgow at 2112 (2212 on a Saturday).
It's a long trip but handy for a later stay in Glasgow.

Good point, thank you. I originally wrote that to avoid someone writing "but nobody would normally travel via Dumfries: they'd travel by the much faster VWC service via Carstairs" - which most in here would know anyway.

I see it is your first post. Welcome to the group. Would be interested to hear more about your observations on the line and it current services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This time last year my work colleagues and I had to visit Dumfries a few times to meet representatives of the local authority, who we were working for directly. It was always a complete nightmare coming up from London as the services on the G&SWR are so slow and infrequent, so if you missed your connection at Carlisle you were pretty scuppered. In the end, we ended up hiring cars off Carlisle/Glasgow instead as it simply wasn't worth taking the risk.

QED. And Dumfries is actually better served than the rest of the line, bar the northern section from Kilmarnock, of course.

 

[robbeale]

Good point, thank you. I originally wrote that to avoid someone writing "but nobody would normally travel via Dumfries: they'd travel by the much faster VWC service via Carstairs" - which most in here would know anyway.

I see it is your first post. Welcome to the group. Would be interested to hear more about your observations on the line and it current services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thanks!

I think services could definitely be improved along the line, especially with more Kilmarnock to Troon connections, although I see this has been bettered at the last timetable change. I use the GSW regularly in it's entirety between Oct and Apr. Only thing is, as I do it so late at night, I've never seen the scenery it has to offer! I have even driven to DMF if I know I'm going to be late, and got the 2312 back from GLC.
My usual line is to work at Windermere, from Oxenholme.

Last week on Saturday 9th Jan, I caught the 1922 Virgin from GLC to CAR via the GSW. For some reason it was timed just behind the 1912 Scotrail. On a 10 car (double voyager) set I was the only passenger!

 

[70014IronDuke]

Thanks!

I think services could definitely be improved along the line, especially with more Kilmarnock to Troon connections, although I see this has been bettered at the last timetable change. I use the GSW regularly in it's entirety between Oct and Apr. Only thing is, as I do it so late at night, I've never seen the scenery it has to offer! ....

On another thread, someone has said that ScotRail plans an hourly service on the GSW from 2017 running Glasgow to Newcastle.

Presumably a better Sunday service too.
That would shake things up. Pity none diverted to Leeds or Sheffield/Nottingham, however.

Incidentally, I think up to a year or two back the GSW also offered the first Carlisle to Glasgow arrival as well - it was an awfully early service - perhaps 04.50 or some such. That train now starts from Dumfries, however.

Last week on Saturday 9th Jan, I caught the 1922 Virgin from GLC to CAR via the GSW. For some reason it was timed just behind the 1912 Scotrail. On a 10 car (double voyager) set I was the only passenger!

I don't think that the Virgin shuttle was well advertised for the weekend services. But given that Lamington may well drag on, it seems to me that the whole GSW service needs re-timing for the duration of the diversions to avoid the daft timetabling situation that you describe.

 

[Millisle]

The 0608 Carlisle-Glasgow GSW has been for many years the first day service to depart north. It still is, but is no longer the first to arrive owing to the recent institution of the 0652 via the WCML. The 0546 to Glasgow (arr 0731) off Dumfries is a new service in the last couple of years and did not formerly start at Carlisle.

 

[70014IronDuke]

The 0608 Carlisle-Glasgow GSW has been for many years the first day service to depart north. It still is, but is no longer the first to arrive owing to the recent institution of the 0652 via the WCML. The 0546 to Glasgow (arr 0731) off Dumfries is a new service in the last couple of years and did not formerly start at Carlisle.

thanks for the correction!

 

[exile]

The 1949 Scottish Region timetable shows the following trains Dumfries-Kilmarnock (Mon-Fri)

3.14 am (Carlisle-Ayr)
5.19 (St Pancras-St Enoch sleeper)
6.37 (Euston-Central sleeper - with breakfast car!)
7.0 stopper
7.25 stopper
10.40 stopper
1.12 pm (Leeds-Glasgow, restaurant car)
4.54 (St Pancras-St Enoch, restaurant car)
5.5 stopper
6.50 fast

A couple of big gaps there..... people at the likes of Sanquhar had a 6 hour wait between trains to Glasgow in the middle of the day....

Fastest Carlisle-Glasgow train was 2 hrs 46

Stopping trains usually missed out some stations

In addition there were 2 through trains to Stranraer (1 being the sleeper from St Pancras) and 2 locals to Dumfries.

 

[Argosy]

Thank you. I wonder if - unilke the S&C, which was a 90 mph main line - this was the norm even historically for the GS&W? I say that because I remember being on the sleeper and looking out of the window bleary eyed at seemingly endless, misty, near-tundra like (and fairly boring) landscape with the train trundling along at at around 60 mph. This was mid-60s, with Cl 45s, and would have been, I presume, in the central section between Dumfries and Kilmarnock.
It is possible, I suppose, that the trains were still on steam-timings, and hence the diesel was not being pushed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Good point, thank you. I originally wrote that to avoid someone writing "but nobody would normally travel via Dumfries: they'd travel by the much faster VWC service via Carstairs" - which most in here would know anyway.

I see it is your first post. Welcome to the group. Would be interested to hear more about your observations on the line and it current services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


QED. And Dumfries is actually better served than the rest of the line, bar the northern section from Kilmarnock, of course.

Which is hardly surprising since as a Yorkshireman might say, "There's bugger all between Dumfries and Kilmarnock." Not quite true but one of the larger settlements has no station! (Cumnock)

South of Sanquhar it's rural. North therof it was mining country (all gone now apart from a bit of opencast). The rivalry between Auchenleck and Cumnock makes Celtic/Rangers seem like a Mothers Union meeting by comparison.

 

[enrag2000]

I am a regular user of the whole line from Glasgow to Carlisle. The last train via Beattock to Carlisle is 2010. Via the GSW you can leave Glasgow at 2112 (2212 on a Saturday).
It's a long trip but handy for a later stay in Glasgow.

I work in Glasgow and live in Carlisle and often finish work at 2130. The last GSWR to Carlisle used to be at 2203 which was ideal for me but then it was changed to 2112 which left me to the National Express coach.

There used to be a crew change at Dumfries at about ten to midnight and the crew taking over would work the first Glasgow train back to Dumfries the following morning. The conductors taking over at Dumfries would appreciate me bringing them the Evening News from Glasgow! Sometimes there was a crew shortage at Dumfries and the original crew member would work though to Carlisle and then get taxied back to Dumfries.

 

[380101]

Thanks!


Last week on Saturday 9th Jan, I caught the 1922 Virgin from GLC to CAR via the GSW. For some reason it was timed just behind the 1912 Scotrail. On a 10 car (double voyager) set I was the only passenger!

They then hold the ScotRail service at Kilmarnock and run the Virgin ahead of it. The Scotrail service then ends up approx. 20 late by the time it arrives at Carlisle. Timings may have changed over the last week, but this was certainly the case the last 3 times I drove the Scotrail service to Carlisle and back. Additional freight trains also affect services.