GA Penalty Fare

[MarcMarcy17]

Evening all,

I got fined today for not having a ticket but I didn't have time to get a ticket.

So I got fined BUT..... They didn't take my name, number or address? Can they still fine me?

I think GA service is a absolute JOKE.

The ticket prices are TOO high for the journey.

Help please!

 

[district]

Evening all,

I got fined today for not having a ticket but I didn't have time to get a ticket.

So I got fined BUT..... They didn't take my name, number or address? Can they still fine me?

I think GA service is a absolute JOKE.

The ticket prices are TOO high for the journey.

Help please!

In my experience, your defence of not having enough time to buy a ticket is unlikely to hold up.

 

[Deerfold]

Evening all,

I got fined today for not having a ticket but I didn't have time to get a ticket.

So I got fined BUT..... They didn't take my name, number or address? Can they still fine me?

I think GA service is a absolute JOKE.

The ticket prices are TOO high for the journey.

Help please!

If you do want help you'll be best telling people what happened - without the rant at GA for clarity. At the moment no-one can tell what happened. You've been fined but you're asking if they can fine you? Where did you travel from and to? Was there an opportunity to buy a ticket at your departure station? Ticket office? Machine? If a machine did it take cash and cards?

 

[jopsuk]

Presumably with no details taken, you've already paid the penalty fare? Though (what with being a law abiding paying passenger) I've never had experience of paying one, I assumed there would be paperwork even with on the spot payment?

Saying that the fares are too high makes me suspicious that your "not enough time to buy a ticket" story is utter rubbish. After all, you clearly weren't travelling from Cambridge (which has been suffering 20+ minute ticket queues weekdays off peak and weekends, even with all four TVMs operational, six ticket windows open and a couple of revenue staff with mobile machines quite often of late) as it has barriers

 

[Urban Gateline]

Evening all,

I got fined today for not having a ticket but I didn't have time to get a ticket.

So I got fined BUT..... They didn't take my name, number or address? Can they still fine me?

I think GA service is a absolute JOKE.

The ticket prices are TOO high for the journey.

Help please!

You got fined? Who by? Only a court can set fines. If you refer to a train company then it is a Penalty fare that you were most likely issued.

If there were ticketing facilities such as an open ticket office, working ticket machine or permit to travel machine then you should have used these before boarding a train, as failing to do this makes you liable to a penalty fare or Byelaw prosecution for not holding a ticket.

Unfortunately not having enough time is not a sufficient excuse, you must make time to buy a ticket, arrive at the station earlier. As said before, moaning about the ticket prices whilst failing to buy a ticket does make it look bad for you, it could be seen as intent to avoid payment of the fare.

If you paid the Penalty Fare on the spot then there is no need for the GA RPI to take your details, hence why they didn't on this occasion.
It would be good if you could post more details of the events that occured when trying to buy a ticket and when an RPI stopped you so people can advise you better.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Presumably with no details taken, you've already paid the penalty fare? Though (what with being a law abiding paying passenger) I've never had experience of paying one, I assumed there would be paperwork even with on the spot payment?

Correct, if paid on the spot then there is no need for details to be taken, although the description of the person is usually noted just in case the same person tries it again.

 

[Monty]

Evening all,

I got fined today for not having a ticket but I didn't have time to get a ticket.

So I got fined BUT..... They didn't take my name, number or address? Can they still fine me?

First of all it's not a fine but a penalty fare (ie a punishment levied in this case by Greater Anglia for failing to purchase a ticket before you board). Only the courts can impose fines, secondly it is your responsibility to purchase your ticket and that includes leaving enough time to do so. Being in a hurry is not an excuse and thus the PFN was justly issued in this case.

Did you pay the penalty fare upfront? If so I know of no legal reason that they must record your details. Though TOCs still tend to request details in order track repeat offenders. If you haven't paid already I am somewhat puzzled how they hope enforce the PFN and recover the monies owed.

I think GA service is a absolute JOKE.

The ticket prices are TOO high for the journey.

Help please!

Of course that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. But be warned, using any such statements could harm your chances of an appeal (which I would say are pretty slim in my professional opinion anyway) and could even possibly be interpreted as intent to avoid paying your fare.

 

[steadmane]

I think it's safe to say if they took no details they don't want to take it any further.

Don't think of it as a fine, think of it as an On-Train Fare.

 

[eastdyke]

Hello MarcMarcy17,

The assumption here is that you have been charged a Penalty Fare.

If this is the case the following extract from the Penalty Fare Rules applies:

8.3 If a person wants to appeal against the penalty fare, or does not
pay the penalty fare in full immediately, the authorised
collector must give them a written notice setting out:
a the identity of the authorised collector and the name of the
train operator that he or she is acting for;
b the amount of the penalty fare and why it has been charged;
c the address to which they must send payment;
d the ways in which they can pay;
e that they must pay within 21 days of receiving the notice;
f that they can ask for a copy of these rules and a summary of
the operator’s approved penalty fares scheme by writing or
sending an e-mail to a given address or calling a given
phone number; and
g that they are entitled to appeal against the penalty fare by
sending a written statement to a given address, within 21
days of the day on which the penalty fare is charged,
explaining why they should not have to pay the penalty
fare.
8.4 If a person pays all or part of a penalty fare, the authorised
collector must give them a receipt for the payment. The
receipt must set out each of the matters listed in rule 8.3.

I am thinking that you may not have been charged a Penalty Fare but simply the amount of the Anytime Ticket relevant to the journey that you made without a ticket.

If you are used to an off-peak ticket, perhaps discounted with a Railcard, then this can indeed seem like a fine. Travelling without a ticket can prove expensive!

As has been said, if you post some more details about your journey and the circumstances, then others may be able to give a full explanation.

 

[RJ]

I've experienced RPIs at Liverpool Street first hand. One said that if I paid a £20.00 Penalty Fare, he'd be happy to let me go without taking a name/address or providing any paperwork at all. I asked how legal this was and how an appeal would work without any tangible record of payment, but he didn't have an answer for either of these questions.

Therefore I am surprised other posters have been so quick to assume that the RPI was only asking for the fare due. Expediency and unchalleged use of underhand tactics are qualities that often bedevil the less competent staff in the revenue protection grade.

Whilst I am not sympathetic towards the OP, judging by their indignant attitude towards paying the fare let alone a penalty, I don't approve of the illegal methods employed by RPIs to get passengers to behave in a certain manner. They should do things by the book if penalising a passenger, which means filling out a Penalty Fare slip showing that it has been paid in full.

 

[Monty]

But what illegal methods has the RPI used in this instance? All the OP has said was that was penalty fared for not purchasing a ticket and his details were not requested. We cannot speculate further until the OP elaborates on the incident in question.

 

[Urban Gateline]

But what illegal methods has the RPI used in this instance? All the OP has said was that was penalty fared for not purchasing a ticket and his details were not requested. We cannot speculate further until the OP elaborates on the incident in question.

Seconded, without further information we are only able to speculate, which doesn't help!

I have heard of RPI's and RPA's in my TOC being dismissed for pocketing the £20 from penalty fares, which is what RJ is describing I believe? Certainly the paperwork must be completed properly, otherwise the RPI isn't issuing the Penalty fare as per the rules.

 

[bb21]

Can we stay off speculation please and open a new thread if the legality of the actions involved are to be discussed.

The OP has provided no details whatsoever as to what happened so until he does so, it is best not to comment any further on this matter as all relevant information we could provide has been provided.

 

[yorkie]

I cannot comment on the issuing of the Penalty Fare due to the lack of any information other than to echo what others say, it may seem like a fine, but believe me if a Court was to impose a fine it would be far higher than that.

It seems like the OP is no longer going to travel with Greater Anglia, as the service is not good enough and the ticket prices are too high, however it is unclear if advice on alternatives is being requested. Without knowing the journey being made, it is impossible to state how viable alternatives may be. In some cases going by bus can be significantly cheaper and may be viable. Perhaps car sharing may be an option.

There is nothing any of us can say that will help without much more information.

 

[RJ]

Seconded, without further information we are only able to speculate, which doesn't help!

I have heard of RPI's and RPA's in my TOC being dismissed for pocketing the £20 from penalty fares, which is what RJ is describing I believe? Certainly the paperwork must be completed properly, otherwise the RPI isn't issuing the Penalty fare as per the rules.

I'm not accusing any one of pocketing the money, I just said that they were willing to take the money without giving a receipt or any paperwork. When I did Penalty Fares, I had to issue a ticket from Any "TOC" Station to Penalty Payment and do a fare override for £20 or whatever the PF amount was. This then had to be stapled to the copy of the PF that goes off to the accountants. A copy of the PF also went to the passenger, with their details taken in case they wished to contest it.

If the OP was charged a Penalty Fare, they should at least have been given a receipt.

 

[steadmane]

Surely he just got a Penalty Fare ticket and that was it? It's not normal to ask for details when issuing a PF is it?

The assumption is that he is making the mistake a vast amount of passengers do in that a PF is a fine. Not unreasonably as fines are referred to, almost interchangably - especially traffic violations, as penalties by the police and court system anyway.

 

[Tom C]

Whilst I am not sympathetic towards the OP, judging by their indignant attitude towards paying the fare let alone a penalty, I don't approve of the illegal methods employed by RPIs to get passengers to behave in a certain manner. They should do things by the book if penalising a passenger, which means filling out a Penalty Fare slip showing that it has been paid in full.

I'm not accusing any one of pocketing the money

Then what are you insinuating?

As a former RPI, and one who was an RPI for many years there is only one conclusion if the passenger is not issued with a penalty fare notice or a ticket and had money taken from them.

Shift sheets, which have not changed since SPORTIS and APTIS, have to account for what is being paid in. Paying monies in without a debit (i.e IWD) has to be clearly documented.

Therefore, what else could it be?

Whatever is issued to you by a member of Revenue Protection, you are entitled to a receipt. Be it a ticket issue, a Penalty Fare notice which should clearly state why you have been issued with the notice, when and on what journey and have had the 21 days appeals procedure clearly explained, the date when you must appeal by and where to appeal to, a Pro Forma receipt with a reference number corresponding to the MG11 written by the inspector or a hand written receipt in the case of a long hand MG11.

In the case of a MG11, any tickets withdrawn to be submitted must also be accounted for either on the pro forma receipt or on a hand written receipt.

 

[RJ]

Then what are you insinuating?

As a former RPI, and one who was an RPI for many years there is only one conclusion if the passenger is not issued with a penalty fare notice or a ticket and had money taken from them.

Shift sheets, which have not changed since SPORTIS and APTIS, have to account for what is being paid in. Paying monies in without a debit (i.e IWD) has to be clearly documented.

Therefore, what else could it be?

Whatever is issued to you by a member of Revenue Protection, you are entitled to a receipt. Be it a ticket issue, a Penalty Fare notice which should clearly state why you have been issued with the notice, when and on what journey and have had the 21 days appeals procedure clearly explained, the date when you must appeal by and where to appeal to, a Pro Forma receipt with a reference number corresponding to the MG11 written by the inspector or a hand written receipt in the case of a long hand MG11.

In the case of a MG11, any tickets withdrawn to be submitted must also be accounted for either on the pro forma receipt or on a hand written receipt.

I'm not insinuating anything. The fact of the matter was that the RPI attempted to charge me £20 for a journey from Forest Gate to Liverpool Street, stating that if I paid cash, he would not have to take my details and would not issue me with a receipt. He said that if I paid by card then he would have to issue a Penalty Fare.

If this is what happened with the OP then it is unjust as no paperwork means making an appeal would essentially be based on the RPI's word vs the OP's.

I agree that this is conjecture, so it would be helpful is the OP told us what the journey was and exactly how much was charged.

 

[bb21]

Since my requests in Post 12 have clearly been ignored, the thread is now locked, for the OP's sake in particular, if he decides to revisit the thread without it being clogged up by irrelevant information.

There is no suggestion from the OP that he did not receive a receipt or similar paperwork. Any discussion regarding such matters should be done on a separate thread.

Message to OP: Please contact a member of staff if you would like the thread reopened.