Gaelic Station Signs

[DaveNewcastle]

Is this not exactly what the new uniformed ScotRail identity is trying to achieve, one identity, being rolled out in line with general maintenance to reduce costs.
. . . the Scottish Governments scheme to increase the use of gaelic within Scotland. if you look at road signs they are gradually being changed and glasgow city council signs will soon be in gaelic as well..

To be clear, this is fine (whether I like it or not) IF the gaelic name actually exists in gaelic discourse.
If it has been contrived (and the IBM example was perfect!), then it is open to mockery and achieves little.
If it benefits non-english speaking travellers (and that's where consideration for Polish/Indian/Chinese speakers becomes crucial), then it is obviously helpful and in a very practical way.

 

[First ScotRail]

Just to point out, the new brand identity was revised by Redpath in edinburgh with all marketing related activity for First ScotRail handled by the Leith Agency.

The issue of gaelic being used I highly suspect as being tourist driven but also for the small proportion of speakers it will be helpful.

 

[tbtc]

As a "Lowland" Scot, I could argue that it'd be a lot more relevant using "Lallans" instead, in the way that they use Ulster Scots in Northern Ireland.

You could argue that having anouncements saying "gonnae no leave yer bags unattended" would be more relevant to most Scots than Gaelic. The whole thing looks like tokenism to me. Maybe it'll mean some nice signs for American tourists to pose next to, but I can't believe it'll make much real difference.

 

[PR1Berske]

I think that this issue goes right to the core of the minority languages in the UK. Welsh is far healthier than Gaelic - spoken by far more people. Would Welsh language signs in the English borders be acceptable?

I don't think anyone is helped with Gaelic variations being invented for towns without a tradition in that language....

 

[37 418]

As probably the only Gaelic speaker on the forum, I agree that only bilingual signs should be made only if there is an authentic Gaelic name for that place.

Regarding 'IBM' that would be not translated as its a brand name, same as 'Coca-cola' etc

 

[merlodlliw]

I think that this issue goes right to the core of the minority languages in the UK. Welsh is far healthier than Gaelic - spoken by far more people. Would Welsh language signs in the English borders be acceptable?

I don't think anyone is helped with Gaelic variations being invented for towns without a tradition in that language....

Acceptable or not, Welsh Signs are in the English/Welsh borders, Gobowen Hospital (Salop) has them, Clatterbridge Liverpool has them, these are a condition of WAG funding, the list is endless

In another area of use, All Shropshire letters are postmarked in Welsh at Shrewsbury as are all Wirral and parts of Cheshire letters franked in Welsh at Chester.

I make no political points on this what so ever, but closer to RF, every WAG/ATW managed station in England as Welsh signage,
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As probably the only Gaelic speaker on the forum, I agree that only bilingual signs should be made only if there is an authentic Gaelic name for that place.

Regarding 'IBM' that would be not translated as its a brand name, same as 'Coca-cola' etc

Agree with you, but in Wales names have been invented in Welsh. IBM would have its Welsh variant,if it were in Wales.

 

[PR1Berske]

Acceptable or not, Welsh Signs are in the English/Welsh borders, Gobowen Hospital (Salop) has them, Clatterbridge Liverpool has them, these are a condition of WAG funding, the list is endless

In another area of use, All Shropshire letters are postmarked in Welsh at Shrewsbury as are all Wirral and parts of Cheshire letters franked in Welsh at Chester.

I make no political points on this what so ever, but closer to RF, every WAG/ATW managed station in England as Welsh signage,
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Agree with you, but in Wales names have been invented in Welsh. IBM would have its Welsh variant,if it were in Wales.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[me123]

I have to agree with one of my friend's here, I believe that the Gaelic signage in the lowlands is 'nationalist propaganda'.

I originally come from Airdrie, in the East of Glasgow. All streets signs in Airdrie have a Gaelic translation, yet despite having lived in the town, visiting it frequently, and currently working there, I have yet to here a word of Gaelic spoken. And the local council has always been Labour. Indeed, it's one of the safest Labour councils in Scotland.

Any attempts to call it "Nationalist Propaganda" from the SNP really are overshadowed by the fact that it has been done in many other lowland towns by other political parties!

All ScotRail operated stations will have them from now on. Stations which were rebranded prior to new brand guidelines being produced have non gaelic signage.

How does that explain Blairhill, though? Blairhill was done after Carntyne, Shettleston and Easterhouse. Same for Coatbridge Sunnyside and Airdrie (and possibly some more). Out of curiosity, could a Gaelic speaker venture a translation for these? Just to prove that it's not impossible.

I'm all for Gaelic translations, I'm just wondering why some stations get it and others don't. Do them all or don't bother.

As a "Lowland" Scot, I could argue that it'd be a lot more relevant using "Lallans" instead, in the way that they use Ulster Scots in Northern Ireland.

You could argue that having anouncements saying "gonnae no leave yer bags unattended" would be more relevant to most Scots than Gaelic.

I've always wondered whether Lallans would be used on the Borders Rail Link, given that it's still widely spoken in that area. There's also the potential to use Doric in Aberdeenshire. (These all being dialects of Scots). However, Glasgow is really more of an English speaking community (albeit a dialect thereof) and I wonder if Scots would actually be any more relevant than Gaelic in the West.

 

[PR1Berske]

You would need a very good designer to fit English, Lallans, Scots and Gaelic onto the same station sign

 

[First ScotRail]

You may find that Blairhill signs were ordered prior to those at Easterhouse etc which would explain...All I know is that until the new brand guidelines were produced most stations didn't receive the new signage style.

 

[reb0118]

How does that explain Blairhill, though? Blairhill was done after Carntyne, Shettleston and Easterhouse. Same for Coatbridge Sunnyside and Airdrie (and possibly some more). Out of curiosity, could a Gaelic speaker venture a translation for these? Just to prove that it's not impossible.

I'm all for Gaelic translations, I'm just wondering why some stations get it and others don't. Do them all or don't bother.

Here goes from a non Gaelic speaker. I've got a copy of the wee OS booklet about the origin of Gaelic, Welsh, & Scandinavian place names in the UK. However I can't find it right now. :cry: I'll just guess a bit then:-

AIRDRIE = An Ard Ruigh = high pasture land?

COATBRIDGE = Coed drochaid = the bridge near the wood ???
(Coatbridge is relatively modern compared to Airdrie and it is probable that the Coat part derives from the Colt family who were major landowners/employers in the area?)

Here are some others:-

KINGHORN = Cean Gorm = the blue headland

ABERDOUR = Obar Dobhair = the mouth of the river Dour

FALKIRK = An Eaglais Bhreac = the speckled church.

Anyway it's about time we got back Bearaig & Cathair Luail although I think Yorkie might make a few comments if Eabhraig was to become Scottish

 

[PR1Berske]

If we trust Wikipedia (and why would we not!)

Falkirk is An Eaglais Bhreac

Airdrie is Àrd Ruigh

Kinghorn is Ceann Gronna

Aberdour is Obar Dobhair

 

[Sgt Elvan]

I originally come from Airdrie, in the East of Glasgow. All streets signs in Airdrie have a Gaelic translation, yet despite having lived in the town, visiting it frequently, and currently working there, I have yet to here a word of Gaelic spoken. And the local council has always been Labour. Indeed, it's one of the safest Labour councils in Scotland.

I think the Gaelic street signs in Airdrie were erected when the Royal National Mod was held there in 1993.

 

[PaulLothian]

Even as a enthusiast for supporting the Gaelic language and culture, I find some bits of this station-naming policy odd. Take Linlithgow, where I happen to live, which was at the meeting point of several language groups - Pict, North Briton and Welsh - and takes its name from the Welsh, as do several other places in this area.

llyn = 'loch'; llaith = 'damp'; cau = 'hollow'

Perhaps the sign could read 'Llynllaithcau' - it would at least make linguistic sense!

 

[merlodlliw]

Even as a enthusiast for supporting the Gaelic language and culture, I find some bits of this station-naming policy odd. Take Linlithgow, where I happen to live, which was at the meeting point of several language groups - Pict, North Briton and Welsh - and takes its name from the Welsh, as do several other places in this area.

llyn = 'loch'; llaith = 'damp'; cau = 'hollow'

Perhaps the sign could read 'Llynllaithcau' - it would at least make linguistic sense!

Welcome to Rail Forums Paul . Now What about the Scots Doric,My friends from Glasgow send for a translator when in Aberdeen as do I.

We have a railway station near Wigan, called BRYN, untouched by the hand of ATW.

 

[button_boxer]

Perhaps the sign could read 'Llynllaithcau' - it would at least make linguistic sense!

But with mutations wouldn't the Welsh look more like Llynlaithgau, which makes the English transliteration seem more reasonable?

 

[PR1Berske]

Bryn, near Wigan (where my grandparents lived for many years), could be subtitled Y Pryn, just to be sure

 

[37 418]

Agree with you, but in Wales names have been invented in Welsh. IBM would have its Welsh variant,if it were in Wales.[/QUOTE]

Probably, but that isn't Gaelic policy according to GOC and Bòrd na Gàidhlig.

If you did translate it it would be IGE (not DGE as previously mentioned):

Innealan Gnìomhachais Eadar-nàiseanta.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Anything like this happen in ireland with irish Gaelic?

 

[37 418]

Anything like this happen in ireland with irish Gaelic?

I know the stations in Dublin are bilingual e.g. Staisúin Uí Chongaile (Dublin Connolly), not sure about Northern Ireland though.

 

[scotsman]

If you did translate it it would be IGE (not DGE as previously mentioned):

Innealan Gnìomhachais Eadar-nàiseanta.

Sorry mate, my Gaelic is really basic.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . irish Gaelic?

Do you mean Irish?
If so, then Yes.

Most road, rail and other public signage in rural Eire are in Irish and English; Irish in an italic typeface, above or below the English equivalent. In the Cities then most though not all, public signage is also in Irish and English. Some Dublin Public Service vehicles don't include the English word 'Dublin' in their signage.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

On Irish station names, anyone know what Rosslare Strand, Dun Loaghaire Mallin and Dublin Pearse are named after?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

On Irish station names, anyone know what Rosslare Strand, Dun Loaghaire Mallin and Dublin Pearse are named after?

Dun Loaghaire Mallin is named after Michael Mallin, who, after the 1916 Easter Rising (the attempt to end the British claims on Eire), was shot by firing squad. He had recently returned from military duty in India, on behalf of the British army, during the First World War. But he was an Irish republican, so his army duty was not an adequate reason to avoid the penalty of death.

Dublin's Pearce station was named after the Pearces who were also active republicans in the 1916 Easter Rising.

I can't comment on Strand.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Dun Loaghaire Mallin is named afer Michael Mallin, who, after the 1916 Easter Rising (the attempt to end the British claims on Eire), was shot by firing squad; he had returned from military duty in India, on behalf of the British army, during the First World War. He was an Irish republican so his army duty was not an adequate reason to avoid the penalty of death.

Dublin's Pearce station was named after the Pearces who were also active republicans in the 1916 Easter Rising.

I can't comment on Strand.

All figures in 1916 Easter Rising: correct

 

[Railsigns]

I can't comment on Strand.

strand (noun) - the land bordering the sea, a lake, or a river; shore; beach.

 

[reb0118]

In Ireland "Strand" is a common name for a beach. Mainly to be found on the east coast of the island. I believe the word is of germanic origin and probably reflects the strong Scandinavian/Viking influence on that part of Ireland - hence eg Strangford Lough = Strang Fjord = the fjord with the strong currents.

The place names of these islands are a complete mixter-maxter. In Cumbria eg we have Penrith & Carlisle both derived British/Celtic and Armathwaite & Oxenholme both derived from the Scandinavian.

It is true that not all of Scotland was Gaelic speaking but at one time it was all British speaking. To answer the critics who claim that Polish or Urdu should be used instead - remember these people are immigrants to this country and they should adapt to our society and language. Using the (in most cases) original place names on railway signage may be a small thing but it does, maybe just fleetingly, bring an older form of language into the ken of the daily commuter.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

To answer the critics who claim that Polish or Urdu should be used instead - remember these people are immigrants to this country and they should adapt to our society and language.

Of all the places where signage in non-native languages might be helpful, surely public transport is one of the most helpful places.

What does it matter if the non-native speakers are long-term immigrants, short-term, friends and family visiting or are much sought-after international tourists?
If it helps, then it helps. But a policy of "they should adapt" is not a policy for the railways to introduce (if anyone)!

 

[merlodlliw]

Bryn, near Wigan (where my grandparents lived for many years), could be subtitled Y Pryn, just to be sure

Interesting that one, I used to live in Rhyl, the Station sign says Y Rhyl & Rhyl.

Also you get the mutations of Welsh and pronunciation. We have a few down here, both ex BR stations ACREFAIR & Llangollen, the visitor says

Acre fair & lan gollen, AC RE VIER & LLAN GOTH LEN

in Welsh F is pronounced V, FF is pronounced F.

Finally near Ruabon we have a famous place that had two rail stations
Rhosllanerugog RHOS LAN ER RE GOG.

All timetables from ATW & VTcome in both languages

Good banter M

 

[Greenback]

Using the (in most cases) original place names on railway signage may be a small thing but it does, maybe just fleetingly, bring an older form of language into the ken of the daily commuter.

You are so right. Until campaigns by Welsh language activists in the 1960;s and 1970;s the Welsh language was in terminal decline. Once Welsh started being used on road signs, people became more aware of both the language and the danger that it might be lost forever within a generation or two.

The campaign for a Welsh language TV channal also helped, and now Welsh has the same legal status as English.

Nowadays, Welsh medium schools are very popular, and the number of Welsh speakers is rising again.