Gateless Gateline trial at St Pancras

itfcfan

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In the "New trains for East Midlands Franchise" thread, a photo of a poster shows the text "Gateless gateline trial at St Pancras". I've searched on the forum, but I haven't found any information about this.

When I search online for "gateless gateline" pages are referring to a facial recognition technology being pushed by Cubic:
https://www.cubic.com/news-events/n...biometric-technology-international-conference

Has anyone got any more information about this? Do EMT intend to roll out Cubic's facial recognition product?

The original post with this poster is below...

New trains for East Midlands Franchise
There's a small poster on Corby station (presumably elsewhere as well) which gives timelines for the changes to stock...
View attachment 72692
 
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Domh245

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I'm not sure how they're going to try and make that work, but if they can find some way of improving the EMR gateline at St Pancras it wouldn't go amiss!
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
Regarding the facial recognition technology, I have a few concerns mentioned below:

1) Who is in charge of running it?

2) What purposes is this technology used for?

3) Is the data stored in a safe and secure place?

4) Is it possible for the computers that the data is stored on to be hacked?

5) How long is the data stored for before deletion?

6) Is the data anonymous so as no individual can be identified?

7) Is this part of a wider government scheme?

8) Can both the TOC and the government be trusted with the data?

9) Would the data distinguish between twins, double lookalikes, or people dressed up attending an Elvis Presley convention?

10) Is this another step to George Orwell's 1984?
 

edwin_m

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I don't think it can be facial recognition technology here, otherwise how does it match the faces with people who have tickets?

There will have to be some sort of physical gate, because EMR frequently (and annoyingly) often don't open it until a few minutes before departure.

Perhaps it's just a gate that stays open unless someone tries to go through without presenting the appropriate ticket.
 

itfcfan

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I don't think it can be facial recognition technology here, otherwise how does it match the faces with people who have tickets?

There will have to be some sort of physical gate, because EMR frequently (and annoyingly) often don't open it until a few minutes before departure.

Perhaps it's just a gate that stays open unless someone tries to go through without presenting the appropriate ticket.
The article on this webpage gives an indication of how it could work:
CUBIC’s ‘fastrack gateless gateline’ system allows users to register their biometric data in advance and then sync it when at a station. although collecting more data, the technology isn’t drastically different to recognition software used by companies like apple and google.
https://www.designboom.com/technolo...erground-cubic-gateless-gatelines-10-04-2017/
gateless-gatelines.png
 

edwin_m

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So instead of just collecting a ticket at the station, or just downloading an e-ticket, you have to register yourself on the system and then again at the station simply to save a few seconds on the way back. Presumably also when you register it activates your ticket m-ticket style, so nobody else can use it. Strikes me as a solution in need of a problem.
 

Spartacus

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Given the situation in airports I've used with biometric gates I'm expecting the queues at the gateless gates to be longer than the ones at the gated ones! :lol: "hold on, come back, take your glasses/hat/makeup off, try it again, no, have you changed your hair, still not working, it might be the big collar on your coat, yes I know it's cold out, try again, no, come back, try not to frown, it doesn't like that, oh just use the normal gates....."

There's something slightly sinister about that image now I look closely. All faceless individuals but those using the gateless gates all conforming to a standard while those not are much more varied......

Funny thing is that gateless gates exist elsewhere, and only require you to have your e-ticket on your person, even a close swipe not being necessary, so people flow through freely, all without requiring any biometric data.
 

pdeaves

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There's something slightly sinister about that image now I look closely. All faceless individuals but those using the gateless gates all conforming to a standard while those not are much more varied......
I thought it looked like a bunch of convicts on their way to hard labour or the condemned on their final walk.
 

edwin_m

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Funny thing is that gateless gates exist elsewhere, and only require you to have your e-ticket on your person, even a close swipe not being necessary, so people flow through freely, all without requiring any biometric data.
That must need the e-ticket to enable some sort of verification (by Bluetooth?) at considerably greater range than contactless or the mobile payment systems. I can't see that being possible with the inter-available e-tickets we currently use - it would have to be download to an app (hence a m-ticket by the UK definitions).
Given the situation in airports I've used with biometric gates I'm expecting the queues at the gateless gates to be longer than the ones at the gated ones! :lol: "hold on, come back, take your glasses/hat/makeup off, try it again, no, have you changed your hair, still not working, it might be the big collar on your coat, yes I know it's cold out, try again, no, come back, try not to frown, it doesn't like that, oh just use the normal gates....."

There's something slightly sinister about that image now I look closely. All faceless individuals but those using the gateless gates all conforming to a standard while those not are much more varied......
Maybe the fact they are faceless explains why the face recognition works so badly?
 

Merle Haggard

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When I posted on the thread the poster I had noticed this intriguing reference but I never got around to starting a thread, so thank you. It's a very interesting document because it lists and dates a number of events that don't seem to have appeared elsewhere and is worthy of close study. Information can be deduced (e.g., start of electric operation) that, as far as I know, hasn't been announced elsewhere.
Just seems strange that the medium for setting out the plans of the TOC is Sellotaping an photocopied A4 sheet to a wall at Corby station...
 

Bletchleyite

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That must need the e-ticket to enable some sort of verification (by Bluetooth?) at considerably greater range than contactless or the mobile payment systems. I can't see that being possible with the inter-available e-tickets we currently use - it would have to be download to an app (hence a m-ticket by the UK definitions).
I think it was a slightly sarcastic reference to not having a gateline.

That said, Germany has long, on the U- and S-Bahnen, had "psychological gatelines" which are basically where you have to walk under a clear demarcation with a further one on the floor, or between some stands on which a validator is normally located. These serve no role in terms of revenue checking, but do provide a psychological barrier to passing through without a ticket.
 
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edwin_m

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I think it was a slightly sarcastic reference to not having a gateline.

That said, Germany has long, on the U- and S-Bahnen, had "psychological gatelines" which are basically where you have to walk under a clear demarcation with a further one on the floor, or between some stands on which a validator is normally located. These serve no role in terms of revenue checking, but do provide a psychological barrier to passing through without a ticket.
It also demarcates clearly that after crossing that line you are subject to revenue inspection and will face a penalty if not holding a valid ticket or equivalent.
 

hkstudent

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That must need the e-ticket to enable some sort of verification (by Bluetooth?) at considerably greater range than contactless or the mobile payment systems. I can't see that being possible with the inter-available e-tickets we currently use - it would have to be download to an app (hence a m-ticket by the UK definitions).

Maybe the fact they are faceless explains why the face recognition works so badly?
A mid-long range transmission seems to be a good technical solution to gateless gateline. One of the problem is, how to locate the device and associate with the ticket holder would be a difficult task; unless it is a one-person-at-a-time style gateless gateline.

Facial recongnition is a big no-no thing as it is quite a infringement to privacy.
 

trentvalley

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There is no way that Abellio will spend any money on any kind of technological gateline solution.

It will be something along the lines of the gates closing if a valid ticket not presented like mentioned above.

Will probably save 2-3 seconds per passenger.

I might be wrong though and they will actually spend money on something ha
 

Meerkat

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From the pictures you fail at the end of the gate, so an even bigger than when a queue of commuter zombies pile into the back of a tourist trying to contactless a paper ticket....
In fact, without a physical gate and with people piling through will it be obvious who failed?
 

Scott1

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When I posted on the thread the poster I had noticed this intriguing reference but I never got around to starting a thread, so thank you. It's a very interesting document because it lists and dates a number of events that don't seem to have appeared elsewhere and is worthy of close study. Information can be deduced (e.g., start of electric operation) that, as far as I know, hasn't been announced elsewhere.
Just seems strange that the medium for setting out the plans of the TOC is Sellotaping an photocopied A4 sheet to a wall at Corby station...
That's because it is provisional and wasn't for public distribution. I'm unsure why someone at Corby has put it up in a public area. That said it is not sensitive and has been available to some in the industry for a while.
 

Merle Haggard

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That's because it is provisional and wasn't for public distribution. I'm unsure why someone at Corby has put it up in a public area. That said it is not sensitive and has been available to some in the industry for a while.
That hadn't occurred to me but now you've pointed it out makes perfect sense. I was hanging around 'killing time' and noticed it; it's in the booking hall, on a wall opposite a row of seats, (probably gone now...) and I wondered why I'd never noticed it posted anywhere else. I'm sorry if anyone's been in trouble as a result.
 

InTheEastMids

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That hadn't occurred to me but now you've pointed it out makes perfect sense. I was hanging around 'killing time' and noticed it; it's in the booking hall, on a wall opposite a row of seats, (probably gone now...) and I wondered why I'd never noticed it posted anywhere else. I'm sorry if anyone's been in trouble as a result.
Not top secret though really as most of it was, at some level, already well in the public domain.

Main bit of insight was that it looks like the electrification won't be 125-ready when the new trains start to turn up. Think there had been quite a bit of speculation about that, it looks like there is planned to be 18 months of 804 running on diesel into St Pancras

Perhaps NR were expecting Bombardier to win the order and thought there was no point completing the works for the planned introduction date? <D
 

Baxenden Bank

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From the pictures you fail at the end of the gate, so an even bigger than when a queue of commuter zombies pile into the back of a tourist trying to contactless a paper ticket....
In fact, without a physical gate and with people piling through will it be obvious who failed?
mmm, a bit like the anti-shoplifting devices in shops. Alarm sounds, most people stop and look around to see who might be the guilty one, because they know it isn't them but can't resist being nosey. Meanwhile the real shop-lifter just keeps on walking.
 

Meerkat

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Or the alarm sounds, it’s clearly you but you know you haven’t nicked anything, you look around.......no staff to speak to, so you just shrug and wander off.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Or the alarm sounds, it’s clearly you but you know you haven’t nicked anything, you look around.......no staff to speak to, so you just shrug and wander off.
Yeah, I did that in Tesco yesterday, except I didn't bother with the 'look around' part!

Strange things though, people, they like to conform. Witness the passengers who still put their tickets into the gateline when all the barriers are open and no staff are present.

Presumably, under the cubic biometric example shown above, there will be something to stop the scrum of dirty "non-bio's" (with their back-packs, children and walking sticks) simply wandering off left through the supreme, clean and youthful "bio" lanes. Can see that working so well at commuter times or after the arrival of an HST full of Saturday leisure travellers.
 

Chris M

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That must need the e-ticket to enable some sort of verification (by Bluetooth?) at considerably greater range than contactless or the mobile payment systems.
Long range has issues - for example I regularly travel through gates at Paddington that are Oyster/Contactless enabled. I have an Oyster card in my pocket and a contactless debit card in my wallet but I'm travelling using a paper ticket. Long range recognition would risk my being charged two incomplete journeys.

mmm, a bit like the anti-shoplifting devices in shops. Alarm sounds, most people stop and look around to see who might be the guilty one, because they know it isn't them but can't resist being nosey. Meanwhile the real shop-lifter just keeps on walking.
I've been beeped a few times while not shoplifting, most recently at ASDA just before Christmas, so it's always worth checking that it wasn't you. When it has been me, it was just a question of showing the receipt to the security person and all was good.
 

kc_

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Long range has issues - for example I regularly travel through gates at Paddington that are Oyster/Contactless enabled. I have an Oyster card in my pocket and a contactless debit card in my wallet but I'm travelling using a paper ticket. Long range recognition would risk my being charged two incomplete journeys.
There's a type of RFID tag used commonly for library books, think it's called "icode slix". It has a range of 1.5 m, depending on how the antenna is designed. Might be that the gateline requires a special type of card that has the ticket loaded on to it, a bit like the ITSO season tickets. It's a different standard to the NFC in oyster and bank cards, so system should be able to tell the difference.
 

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