Gatwick Airport: Rail Replacement Bus disruption (06/05)

[30907]

The irony is that roadworks are often suspended over bank holiday weekends in complete contrast to railway thinking.

For thinking read traffic patterns. Certain roads carry massively increased traffic all over holiday weekends, while most rail routes carry much less.
I have just driven from Shipley to near Blackburn via Skipton and taken 90 minutes instead of the normal 55 or peak hour 70 - simply because half Yorkshire seems to have headed for the Dales. That'll learn me!
No excuse for blocking all routes to the Sussex Coast or not having enough RRBs but that's a slightly different issue.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Horsham to Dorking route is open today as I'm on 2E61 and travelling home via Sutton to avoid Gatwick

 

[Antman]

Sussex Police explicitly banned the RRBs from operating on the motorway yesterday due to standing passengers, and buses loaded with standing passengers will divert away from the motorway today. This is the plan being adhered to by GTR / NwR / Gatwick Airport Ltd.

I do agree this may not bear any resemblance to the statistical analysis of road accidents, certainly comparing the risk of a longer drive around the local A and B roads, but it is most definitely the plan insisted upon by the Roads Policing unit of the local police.

Unless it is illegal (and as far as I'm aware it isn't?) the police don't have the authority to make that decision.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I'm sure they do for reasons of safety. I know buses can't travel very fast on the motorway but I wouldn't want to be a standing pax on a bus involved in a collision at 50-60mph

 

[Antman]

I'm sure they do for reasons of safety. I know buses can't travel very fast on the motorway but I wouldn't want to be a standing pax on a bus involved in a collision at 50-60mph

Neither would I but you could have the same accident or worse on any other road.

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm sure they do for reasons of safety. I know buses can't travel very fast on the motorway but I wouldn't want to be a standing pax on a bus involved in a collision at 50-60mph

It will be safer than an ordinary road as there's no oncoming traffic to double the speed of impact. The police may have had some other reason, but it seems very strange.

 

[deltic]

I seem to recall travelling on Glasgow Airport Shuttle buses to the city centre on the motorway with standing passengers on a number of occasions - doesn’t seem unusual

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm really very surprised if the police insisted on them not using the motorway. It suggests they aren't aware of all the facts. It's also unusual for the police to get involved in such matters. Better communication, by all parties, appears to be needed, urgently.

Precisely what remit did they have to do that?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm sure they do for reasons of safety. I know buses can't travel very fast on the motorway but I wouldn't want to be a standing pax on a bus involved in a collision at 50-60mph

You’re a whole lot more likely to experience that on a non motorway NSL road.

 

[Hophead]

Why you even need to use the M23 to travel between Gatwick & Three Bridges is something of a mystery, and, even if you do, the length of the journey on the motorway is all of 3 miles, half of which is the Gatwick spur.

 

[JonathanH]

Why you even need to use the M23 to travel between Gatwick & Three Bridges is something of a mystery, and, even if you do, the length of the journey on the motorway is all of 3 miles, half of which is the Gatwick spur.

I was thinking about that as the M23 is to the east of the airport and to a greater extent Three Bridges station and on the face of it going via Manor Royal shouldn't take much longer - the problem is that the Rail Replacement buses go from the South Terminal and therefore are on the M23 side of the station - it is a bit convoluted to get from there to the A23.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Who books a holiday without researching how they're going to get home from the airport?

Most people, given holidays are booked way before engineering works are announced.

But then Network Rail were proudly announcing that "significantly fewer people travel by train on bank holiday weekends", so no wonder this happens. And GTR are, well, GTR. GoVia couldn't run a bath; they couldn't at SouthEastern, they couldn't at LM, and they still can't now.

Brighton's mobbed on a bank holiday even when it's peeing with rain. Everyone could- and should- have seen this coming.

 

[Antman]

There is an 18.57 from Brighton to Victoria reversing at Three Bridges and Horsham, is this a hastily arranged extra? It begs the question as to why this service hasn't been running throughout the day.


18:57
On time
Brighton

19:29
On time
Three Bridges

19:49
On time
Horsham

20:23
On time
Dorking (Main)

20:38
On time
Epsom (Surrey)

20:49
On time
Sutton (London)

21:09
On time
Clapham Junction

21:21
On time
London Victoria

 

[samogers]

There is an 18.57 from Brighton to Victoria reversing at Three Bridges and Horsham, is this a hastily arranged extra? It begs the question as to why this service hasn't been running throughout the day.

There have been a few services both ways between 9 and 5

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...18/05/07/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

and

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...18/05/07/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

 

[Baxenden Bank]

And the engineering work being planned and locked in the schedule for about a year.

I wasn't referring to the engineering works themselves, rather the ineffective alternative arrangements whilst the TOC pockets the compo. Plus having the potential diversionary route also blocked by engineering works. You couldn't make it up.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Plus having the potential diversionary route also blocked by engineering works. You couldn't make it up.

The diversionary route via Horsham and Dorking was not blocked today

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The diversionary route via Horsham and Dorking was not blocked today

The point is, they have previously agreed not to have all routes blocked, so they go and do it anyway. Just as one England to Scotland route is meant to always be available, but when it suits, both are closed and the agreement is ignored.

 

[Deepgreen]

Sussex Police explicitly banned the RRBs from operating on the motorway yesterday due to standing passengers, and buses loaded with standing passengers will divert away from the motorway today. This is the plan being adhered to by GTR / NwR / Gatwick Airport Ltd.

I do agree this may not bear any resemblance to the statistical analysis of road accidents, certainly comparing the risk of a longer drive around the local A and B roads, but it is most definitely the plan insisted upon by the Roads Policing unit of the local police.

What a nonsense - buses/coaches operate on Motorways very frequently and many have toilets which can only be got to by standing and walking. Many more local buses with standees also operate on dual carriageways with 50/60mph limits. Sussex Police appear to have imposed a pointless and unsupported regime to cover themselves, as everyone seems to be doing in this farce.

If the 'rules' about not closing diversionary routes are to be ignored when it suits the operators/maintainers, and there is no planning concerning the provision of replacement services, the spiral will continue, despite bleatings about "lessons to be learned".

The issue was a topic on Jeremy Vine's Radio 2 programme today.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Buses can carry up to a specified number of people, including standees. It is up the bus operator to enforce this and they are, in any case, responsible under HSAWA for the safe operation of the service, including RRBs, and must maintain public liability insurance. IMHO, it's not a police matter.

 

[The Planner]

So all this engineering work is planned months - if not years - in advance, and yet the morons who are involved in planning it (NR, TOCs) cannot issue a timetable for October 2018 or February 2019 at this stage. Quite a lot of people will be booking holidays for October already. Lacking any meaningful information in the obvious places like the major journey planners, it is entirely reasonable that people book trips in the expectation that trains will be running and not even think about it again until shortly before they travel. If the engineering is planned so far in advance, the timetable / alternative arrangements should be available to the public that far in advance on the main journey planners like nationalrail. WHy would non-experienced travellers even think there would be another obscure website available when the usual planning tools give no indication disruption is planned so far in advance? Yet again it's a case of the railway being organised and run for the convenience of the railway, not the travelling public.

If you are going to call people morons, at least have the temerity to understand the process. No timetable exists for Feb 2019 as it is part of the December 2018 timetable which hasn't been published yet as it is in production, in the same way it has been for countless years. As for October a base timetable exists but it isn't within the short term planning window where tickets are meant to be available 12 weeks out, oddly enough the same way as it has been for countless years.

 

[Robertj21a]

If you are going to call people morons, at least have the temerity to understand the process. No timetable exists for Feb 2019 as it is part of the December 2018 timetable which hasn't been published yet as it is in production, in the same way it has been for countless years. As for October a base timetable exists but it isn't within the short term planning window where tickets are meant to be available 12 weeks out, oddly enough the same way as it has been for countless years.

I think the wider issue is that rail timetables seem to only be finalised and publicised about 3 months in advance. That is a short timescale when compared to airlines or hotels. I've never really understood why the railways can't work at least, say, 6 months ahead.

 

[whhistle]

Well, they could have a backup plan where if it is forecast that large amounts of people are going to travel to a destination, they can book the weekends before or after the event, and if it is realised that large amounts of people are traveling, simply cancel that weeks engineering works and move it to the next week. I can't believe that such a system can't be organised

Well you must believe it, because that's how it is.
As others have said, the majority of engineering work is planned months, sometimes years in advance. You can't just whip up engineering trains, materials, staff whenever it fits. Most bank holidays involve some sort of engineering work. Yes, it might not be that great but I guess statistically less people travel than doing engineering work during a normal working week.

Take ballast for example.
The company supplying the ballast is planning on 10 tons of it being shifted from their depot on a Friday night. Let's say Network Rail cancel the engineering. That means the ballast doesn't move, which means that space can't be used to store ballast for the following weeks engineering, which will now be delayed.

 

[whhistle]

They do - they will conclude that it's OK as "there is a railway station at the Airport".

Just because there is one, doesn't mean it's open.
That's like assuming a city will have a particular supermarket, that will be open 24 hours a day.

 

[Mag_seven]

Just because there is one, doesn't mean it's open.

Appreciate that but people don't check, especially if they are strangers to the country.

I even got caught out with the S-Bahn link to Hamburg Airport (it was part-closed one weekend due to engineering works).

 

[The Planner]

I think the wider issue is that rail timetables seem to only be finalised and publicised about 3 months in advance. That is a short timescale when compared to airlines or hotels. I've never really understood why the railways can't work at least, say, 6 months ahead.

Unless we go to a yearly timetable then that won't work otherwise we will be in STP before we offer the normal timetable. Its either that or you don't have a LTP timetable at all and you deal with a constantly shifting timetable with no base, Im not sure that would work.

 

[Antman]

Just because there is one, doesn't mean it's open.
That's like assuming a city will have a particular supermarket, that will be open 24 hours a day.

No it isn't the same at all and if intending passengers did check in advance all they would find is that a replacement bus service will operate between the airport and Three Bridges, are they really supposed to reschedule their holiday because of that? Obviously they aren't to know that the bus provision would be hopelessly inadequate.

 

[markymark2000]

A rail replacement is an inconvenience but people will use them on the basis they journey time doesn't increase too much. Personally, I am happy to use rail replacements. They can add a bit of something to the journey. People generally chat a little more compared to on the train, especially if things go wrong which is a lot better than loads of people with headphones in. I will admit though, I have never had to deal with a GTR rail replacement service. It has always been Northern, ATW or Merseyrail.

At no point do people expect for there to be a 4h wait for the bus due to incompetence in the GTR offices.

It isn't about people checking in advance, as quite a few people will know and as I said, will be happy to use a rail replacement. If they knew GTR were going to mess up, they would have booked on a coach. No one expects idiots to run the railway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A rail replacement is an inconvenience but people will use them on the basis they journey time doesn't increase too much. Personally, I am happy to use rail replacements. They can add a bit of something to the journey. People generally chat a little more compared to on the train, especially if things go wrong which is a lot better than loads of people with headphones in. I will admit though, I have never had to deal with a GTR rail replacement service. It has always been Northern, ATW or Merseyrail.

At no point do people expect for there to be a 4h wait for the bus due to incompetence in the GTR offices.

Quite.

Unless it has the "white R" on it i.e. reservations compulsory, people quite reasonably expect to be able to turn up for any timetabled service, train or bus, and board it at that time or something approximating to it.

An unpublicised 4 hour wait is unacceptable.

 

[EM2]

... are they really supposed to reschedule their holiday because of that?

Who has suggested that?

 

[Antman]

A rail replacement is an inconvenience but people will use them on the basis they journey time doesn't increase too much. Personally, I am happy to use rail replacements. They can add a bit of something to the journey. People generally chat a little more compared to on the train, especially if things go wrong which is a lot better than loads of people with headphones in. I will admit though, I have never had to deal with a GTR rail replacement service. It has always been Northern, ATW or Merseyrail.

At no point do people expect for there to be a 4h wait for the bus due to incompetence in the GTR offices.

It isn't about people checking in advance, as quite a few people will know and as I said, will be happy to use a rail replacement. If they knew GTR were going to mess up, they would have booked on a coach. No one expects idiots to run the railway.

Exactly that and the insinuations on here that passengers are somehow to blame are just ridiculous. A rail replacement between Gatwick Airport and Three Bridges should be nothing more than a minor inconvenience.