Gatwick Express - hiding in plain sight?

[lachlan]

Edinburgh Airport on the tram is another "tourist tax"/rip-off. The fare to Newcastle Airport on Metro doesn't appear to have a premium.

Does the airport bus also charge a premium? If you're going to Haymarket it appears to be quicker than the tram which makes the value of the tram appear even worse. The bus also accepts all national entitlement cards whereas the tram only accepts cards issued by the City of Edinburgh.

From the airport in Singapore I don't believe there is any extra charge for using the MRT or buses. However there is no fast train service and one must change trains to reach the city centre.

 

[Surreytraveller]

They’re back from 3rd April

Again? They keep bringing it back only for it to disappear again

 

[yorkie]

Does the airport bus also charge a premium? If you're going to Haymarket it appears to be quicker than the tram which makes the value of the tram appear even worse. The bus also accepts all national entitlement cards whereas the tram only accepts cards issued by the City of Edinburgh.

From the airport in Singapore I don't believe there is any extra charge for using the MRT or buses. However there is no fast train service and one must change trains to reach the city centre.

The Edinburgh tram is not in any way related to this discussion; Edinburgh trams simply charge a higher than normal fare for the final stop to the airport. That's already the case with GTR non-premium pricing, where the cost to Gatwick is disproportionately higher than the cost to Horley and that's without the premium that is applied to the GX branded trains!

For a railway analogy, a passenger has absolutely no idea how much, if anything, the person next to them has paid for their journey. Just the same as flights, just the same as hotels.

Not the same at all; you are conflating completely different concepts; the equivalent concept on the railway is where Advance fares are sold at differing price levels. This is not at all what we are discussing and it's a completely different concept. It's not a valid comparison at all.

Again? They keep bringing it back only for it to disappear again

Yep

The Hong Kong Airport Express doesn't have a commuter equivalent on the exact same route like the HEx and GX.

Getting to the Tung Chung line from the airport is quite a hassle. The Airport Express also adds value with a luggage check-in service (outside of the covid period)

In the UK, MAN, BHX, SEN and arguably LTN airports don't have a premium fare equivalent. Not sure of the fares to STN.

Not sure if a premium equivalent is offered more often than not in the rest of the world, but that's for the International subforum.

The abuse of a dominant market position by unlawfully charging brand specific fares when not permitted to do so by the regulatory regime is unique to GTR as far as I know.

 

[Need2]

Again? They keep bringing it back only for it to disappear again

I have attached a screenshot of an internal email I received, sorry I cannot post a direct link to it.

 

[Surreytraveller]

A trial run in December. Which collapsed within days!

 

[185143]

As others have said, there are no GX services at the moment so that's why it's not shown on the screens as a GX service.

To be fair to GTR, despite the many valid complaints people may make about GTR's Gatwick Express, this isn't one of them. Every time I have been on a red 387 operating a Southern branded service, without fail, the PIS has clearly displayed "Southern Service using GX Carriages". Even on the Coastway.

 

[62484GlenLyon]

Unfortunately, the original reasons for the Gatwick Express being introduced have been eroded over the years to the detriment of the service. This is particularly so with the introduction of the 387s.

The service was introduced to separate the airport travellers from the day-to-day hullaballoo of the normal Brighton Main Line (BML) commuter traffic. With the 15 minute GX service there was always a train in the platform for the airport passengers with their large amounts of luggage. The platforms used at both Victoria and Gatwick were largely separate from other traffic so the airport passengers had time to board and detrain. The stock used, mk 2 aircons, had wider doors than the CIGs and VEPs of the time again helping those with large suitcases. All this was successful in keeping the 2 flows of passenger traffic on the BML apart from each other. While it was likely that it wasn't the first available Victoria service that somebody could have caught it was more suitable for the people it was aimed at and was more justifying of higher fares.

However, the introduction of the 387s a few years ago meant that half of the trains became normal BML services that mixed the two passenger flows to the detriment of both. Normal BML day-to-day people were now struggling past luggage encumbered airline passengers who, in turn, were fighting to get their cases on and off trains that had only a brief station dwell time. The Up trains, in particular, were a disgrace in terms of value for money as those who had paid GX fares were now on a windswept platform that had no facilities waiting for a GX branded service that may well have been the 2nd or 3rd train in the procession up the BML and when it did arrive offered absolutely nothing more for their money than the trains that they had let go.

 

[yorkie]

Unfortunately, the original reasons for the Gatwick Express being introduced have been eroded over the years to the detriment of the service. This is particularly so with the introduction of the 387s.
...

You mean Govia's claims that it is "business as usual" were untrue? Surely not

17 June 08 BUSINESS AS USUAL ON THE GATWICK EXPRESS Customers are number one priority for franchise handover On 22 June 2008, train operator Southern will run its first Gatwick Express service departing London Victoria station at 03h30 bound for Gatwick Airport. Gatwick Express, the nation's favourite train company, has been working with Southern to ensure that passengers experience no disruption on that day.

Actually, it's difficult to find anything from that video that wasn't a bare-faced lie.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

With Thameslink offering 8tph now to a much wider set of destinations with interchange available at several London ML stations along with Crossrail at Farringdon imminently who wants to be dumped at Victoria.

It was great when it started but the world has moved on and it needs to go the stock can be put to better use today.

Remember also Gatwick is a hub for short haul LCC now and those passengers don't have hoards of luggage that long haul generated.

 

[62484GlenLyon]

With Thameslink offering 8tph now to a much wider set of destinations with interchange available at several London ML stations along with Crossrail at Farringdon imminently who wants to be dumped at Victoria.

It was great when it started but the world has moved on and it needs to go the stock can be put to better use today.

Remember also Gatwick is a hub for short haul LCC now and those passengers don't have hoards of luggage that long haul generated.

Indeed, so GTR should drop the pretence of a superior service by abolishing the GX brand and run everything as Southern or Thameslink as appropriate.

 

[yorkie]

We are getting into speculation territory though; I am sure we already have threads for this...

Edit: indeed we do:

• The future of Gatwick Express
• Abolish Gatwick Express?
• Could Gatwick Express be abolished?

 

[zero]

It has lots and lots of airport buses, which is how someone who didn't want to pay the premium fare would go - I did. Unless you are staying very close to the Airport Express station, to use the airport check-in you'll be using a taxi to and from the station, so another "premium" option - otherwise there's little point to it other than checking in bags in advance, or as a novelty.

Yes, and you can also take a bus (or buses) from Victoria to Gatwick. Before Oyster was valid on trains and when I was poor, I would take "free" buses to Redhill (having a bus pass or reached the daily cap) then it was £2 to Gatwick on Metrobus. There are also NatEx coaches. Not the same as a train that goes from the same station to the same station which costs double the price of another train because of some paint on the outside, and is arguably in breach of legal agreements.

In Hong Kong you can take buses or the MTR to the in-town check in, the MTR is free when connecting to the AEx at least the last time I checked. A taxi is only useful if you are late or can't be bothered to handle luggage.

Actually if you want to make a premium/standard comparison, the HK buses branded CityFlyer (A prefixes) go to the airport for 1.5x-2x the price of the E buses which have a small detour via cargo areas/airline offices but otherwise operate on broadly the same routes. If you are over 65, you can take the E buses for $2 compared to the $40+ of the A buses.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But these offer something extra for the extra money e.g. Oslo, Vienna.

It is like a hotel offering Executive Rooms for higher prices that are exactly the same as standard rooms.

Or TOCs offering First Class that's either exactly the same as Standard (GTR) or inferior to it (WMT 350s and the forthcoming 730s)?

 

[Class800]

You mean for an extra 2 mins, the Brighton fasts are on average 29 mins Gatwick Airport to Victoria including a stop at East Croydon. In the 2019 timetable GatEx took 31 mins non-stop!

There could be a case under the Trade Descriptions Act if an 'Express' is not faster than the non-express named service? However legal cases get messy and I stay out of them for that reason

 

[Bletchleyite]

There could be a case under the Trade Descriptions Act if an 'Express' is not faster than the non-express named service? However legal cases get messy and I stay out of them for that reason

Apart from that the Trades Descriptions Act was repealed a long time ago (though similar provisions exist in other laws), the "man on the Clapham omnibus" definition of an express train is simply one that doesn't stop at all stations. It doesn't, and it serves Gatwick, thus the description is wholly accurate.

 

[yorkie]

Yes, and you can also take a bus (or buses) from Victoria to Gatwick. Before Oyster was valid on trains and when I was poor, I would take "free" buses to Redhill (having a bus pass or reached the daily cap) then it was £2 to Gatwick on Metrobus.

How long did that take?

There are also NatEx coaches.

I see these go via Heathrow; I doubt many people use them for a London Victoria to Gatwick Airport journey as the journey time is several times longer than the train!

Not the same as a train that goes from the same station to the same station which costs double the price of another train because of some paint on the outside, and is arguably in breach of legal agreements.

I completely agree. I think DfT/GTR got complacent and assumed that refunding people who complained would avoid any legal issues, but that looks to be wishful thinking now.

I'm still not aware of anyone who has stated on this forum that they have been charged an excess/penalty/new ticket, when in posession of a brand restricted fare, and who requested a refund, having had that request denied.

I would therefore urge people to consider using such fares on the Gatwick Express, and if charged, put in a refund request (I will be happy to help with the wording of this) and if it is refused, a refund would still be possible if the legal case proceeds.

There could be a case under the Trade Descriptions Act if an 'Express' is not faster than the non-express named service? However legal cases get messy and I stay out of them for that reason

Apart from that the Trades Descriptions Act was repealed a long time ago (though similar provisions exist in other laws), the "man on the Clapham omnibus" definition of an express train is simply one that doesn't stop at all stations. It doesn't, and it serves Gatwick, thus the description is wholly accurate.

How does the Trade Descriptions Act protect consumers?

The CPA are one of the top consumer protection agencies in the UK. We've put together a explaination for how the Trade Descriptions Act protects consumers.

www.thecpa.co.uk

Although the Trade Descriptions Act 1968 is technically still valid, it has been largely superseded by the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPRs). The CPRs built on the Trade Descriptions Act by including specific wording about false endorsements and other pressure or aggressive sales tactics.

There is no real need to dispute the use of the word "express" which is subjective; see the following thread for more information regarding the claim:

Collective competition claim against Govia Thameslink Railway

This press release hit the newswires yesterday: COLLECTIVE COMPETITION CLAIM AGAINST GOVIA THAMESLINK RAILWAY FOR OVERCHARGING RAIL PASSENGERS ON BRIGHTON MAINLINE SINCE OCTOBER 2015 London 6 July 2021 – An application to commence an opt-out collective action (“Claim”) was launched in the...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Class800]

Apart from that the Trades Descriptions Act was repealed a long time ago (though similar provisions exist in other laws), the "man on the Clapham omnibus" definition of an express train is simply one that doesn't stop at all stations. It doesn't, and it serves Gatwick, thus the description is wholly accurate.

express but not faster... Seems misleading to me for sure. And not accurate.

 

[yorkie]

express but not faster... Seems misleading to me for sure. And not accurate.

That's an argument over semantics which is probably best done in a separate thread. It may or may not be a misleading term, but it is irrelevant to the case against GTR.

 

[Bletchleyite]

express but not faster... Seems misleading to me for sure. And not accurate.

They are not claiming it is faster.

 

[Fincra5]

That's an argument over semantics which is probably best done in a separate thread. It may or may not be a misleading term, but it is irrelevant to the case against GTR.

DfT and the Airport want the "Premium" service...

 

[BrianB]

Not shown as such on GTR train brand timetable updates currently

work in progress, will appear online asap, hopefully by this weekend

 

[omnicity4659]

Edinburgh Airport on the tram is another "tourist tax"/rip-off. The fare to Newcastle Airport on Metro doesn't appear to have a premium.

Newcastle Airport is in Zone C (the same as the coast & Sunderland), when the previous stop around half a mile away is in Zone B. 70p difference in single and £1 more for a day ticket.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

work in progress, will appear online asap, hopefully by this weekend

Presumably call the fast Brightons a Gatex service then they can charge more? Or are the terminators coming back?

 

[717001]

Press release this morning:

Gatwick Express returns for spring to support airport recovery

Gatwick Express will resume a non-stop, seven-day-a-week service from Sunday 3 April to support the recovery of Gatwick Airport and the South East economy

www.mynewsdesk.com

PRESS RELEASE - 16 MARCH 2022 06:00

Gatwick Express returns for spring to support airport recovery​

Gatwick Express will resume a non-stop service from Sunday 3 April to support the recovery of Gatwick Airport and the South East economy.
Services were first suspended on 30 March 2020 as the pandemic took hold and passenger numbers at the airport tumbled. Numbers have now increased and are expected to surge still further with the removal of all travel restrictions on 18 March.
Stephen MacCallaugh, General Manager, Gatwick Express, said:
“We’re absolutely delighted to bring back our non-stop Gatwick Express service from Sunday 3 April as we look forward to a busier summer season including for international travel.
“With more passengers now returning to Gatwick by rail and the South Terminal reopening, now is the time to get our service running again to support the airport and the economic recovery in the South East.”
Gatwick Airport railway station is also being rebuilt to improve accessibility, reduce passenger congestion and cut delays for commuters and leisure travellers using the Brighton Mainline. It will be finished next year.
Emma Rees, Head of Real Estate and Surface Access, London Gatwick Airport, said:
“The return of Gatwick Express is great news and we’re really looking forward to the completion of the upgraded railway station. People are flying from Gatwick in ever-increasing numbers and excellent rail links which have a dedicated service specifically for airport passengers are a vital element of our recovery and our link into central London and beyond.”
The service is timetabled to run seven days a week but weekend engineering work will affect this and passengers are urged to check ahead at nationalrail.co.uk.
ends

Notes to editors

Gatwick Express services were suspended on 30 March 2020 as the pandemic took hold and passenger numbers at the airport tumbled. They resumed on weekdays only on 12 December 2021 before being curtailed again two weeks later due to Christmas engineering work and then the impact of the Omicron variant of Covid.

Passengers at the airport are now returning in greater numbers which will increase still further with the opening of the South Terminal. Gatwick Express will now return to support the recovery of the airport and South East economy.

From 3 April 2022 Gatwick Express will operate with two Gatwick Express services running non-stop between Gatwick Airport and London Victoria. The service previously ran with four trains an hour but the ongoing upgrade of Gatwick Airportstation means there are not enough platforms available to accommodate them all.

• The service is timetabled to run seven days a week but weekend engineering work will affect this and passengers are urged to check ahead at nationalrail.co.uk.
• Mondays to Saturdays inclusive, all Gatwick Express trains will be timetabled to run non-stop between London Victoria and Gatwick Airport, then will run through non-stop to Brighton.
• As in the past, peak-time weekday services will also call additionally at Haywards Heath, Burgess Hill, Hassocks and Preston Park.
• On Sundays, trains will run between Gatwick Airport and London Victoria only.

Gatwick’s importance to the economy

• Pre-Covid, Gatwick was the single biggest driver of economic growth in the region, delivering £2.7 billion of economic activity and 71,000 direct and indirect jobs
• As a gateway to the UK for 5.5 million overseas visitors each year before the pandemic, it was estimated that visitors through Gatwick spent 9.7million nights in the South East including seaside towns such as Brighton, bringing a significant economic boost to local hotels, visitor attractions, restaurants and shops
• Gatwick Airport station is being rebuilt to improve accessibility, reduce congestion and cut delays for commuters and leisure travellers alike using the route
• The station upgrade will improve accessibility and the punctuality of trains passing through as well as create space for more passengers
• The project is being managed by Network Rail in partnership with the Department for Transport and Govia Thameslink Railway. Gatwick Airport Ltd and Coast to Capital Local Enterprise Partnership are co-funding the project with £37 million and £10 million respectively. The project is being delivered by Costain.

 

[riceuten]

More importantly, it saved being on a train packed with "local" traffic from East Croydon and elsewhere, which is the real point of running services non-stop to Gatwick.

It's obscene when there are rammed other TSGN services that GatEx trains often worked 3/4s empty.

 

[Minstral25]

It's obscene when there are rammed other TSGN services that GatEx trains often worked 3/4s empty.

Precisely - GatEx is an anachronism

 

[riceuten]

Precisely - GatEx is an anachronism

Just so some "important" businessman doesn't need to share his carriage (!) with the hoi polloi

 

[Sussex Ben]

It's obscene when there are rammed other TSGN services that GatEx trains often worked 3/4s empty.

Probably a subject for a different thread (indeed I believe old threads have already discussed this), however it could largely be resolved by removing the fare differential, followed by removal of Gatwick from departure boards at Victoria for semi-fast Southern services as this forces people towards GX. Slightly harder to enforce in the up direction though, however that is probably less of an issue.

 

[43066]

Unfortunately, the original reasons for the Gatwick Express being introduced have been eroded over the years to the detriment of the service. This is particularly so with the introduction of the 387s.

The biggest one being that London Gatwick has gone from being like a mini Heathrow, with many full service transatlantic flights, to mostly LoCos and charter airlines serving bucket and spade destinations. In years gone by business travellers would have been able to expense tickets and the Gatwick Express would have served a similar market to the Heathrow Express now.

Virtually the only people travelling on it these days will be those who don’t realise you can take a Thameslink or a Southern service for far less money, with a journey time a matter of minutes longer (the vast majority won’t be aware that GTR operate all three brands, and that the tickets can technically be used interchangeably, of course).

 

[flitwickbeds]

There are few major airports worldwide that don't do that sort of thing. Do your research and save a packet.

Tees-side Airport Express, anyone?