GBRf order another 5 66 locos

[hurricanemk1c]

The Class 66 bodyshell doesn't meet current crashworthiness criteria. This will be the end for new Class 66s

 

[Emblematic]

The Class 66 bodyshell doesn't meet current crashworthiness criteria. This will be the end for new Class 66s

That can't be right. There's no 'transition scheme' for safety standards - new kit either meets the standards or fails - if it fails it can't go into service. The current standard (GMRT2100 issue 5) has been in force since 2012, and was largely unchanged from issue 4 from 2010.

 

[hurricanemk1c]

From Modern Railways, July 2014 article on 66752:

"Any locos built after 31 December 2014 would need to meet Category IIIb emissions standsa and EMD says it cannot fit such a low-emission 710 engine in the existing Class 66 bodyshell. The possibility of putting a low-emission Caterpillar engine into a '66' body has been looked at, but the current Class 66 design will not meet recent, more stringent, crashworthiness tests" (my bold)

Fitting a different engine changes the safety case. And the last previous new Class 66 was built in 2008, so issue 4 wasn't in force

 

[Ash Bridge]

The Class 66 bodyshell doesn't meet current crashworthiness criteria. This will be the end for new Class 66s

I could be wrong here , but isn't the criterior for crashworthiness regarding locomotives more concerned with the driving cab structures rather than the bodyshell?

 

[thetangoman]

From Modern Railways, July 2014 article on 66752:

"Any locos built after 31 December 2014 would need to meet Category IIIb emissions standsa and EMD says it cannot fit such a low-emission 710 engine in the existing Class 66 bodyshell. The possibility of putting a low-emission Caterpillar engine into a '66' body has been looked at, but the current Class 66 design will not meet recent, more stringent, crashworthiness tests" (my bold)

Fitting a different engine changes the safety case. And the last previous new Class 66 was built in 2008, so issue 4 wasn't in force

What about the "NEW" 66's that GBRF have just taken delivery of. Surely they were built after 2008

 

[Emblematic]

They have built 23 class 66 locomotives since 2012, three more coming with new powerplants on order/engine delivered prior to cutoff at end 2014. This brings it to the maximum of 26 new engines allowed under the transition arrangements, with the final two using the loophole of a pre-existing engine that has already been in use. I'm sure all 28 of these meet group standards for safety, and equally sure they will be the last (save the possibility of further wrecks being rebuilt with salvaged parts.)

 

[paulclass43]

I have heard drivers call them turtles lol and weirdly I can see that

Yeah I can see where "Turtle" comes from. I call them "Milkfloats" because of their sound. That CAT engine is pretty quiet and I'm assuming what I hear is the AC traction motor, and to me they sound jump like a Milkfloat. I've only ever heard one in the flesh and it made the sound. If you watch some of the YouTube videos of Class 68's hauling stone from Mountsorrel then you can hear the "Milkfloat" hum clearly.

I hope they can make the Class 68 stage 3b compliant, fingers crossed. I believe that the future of freight is going to be Fast, Light, and Smart BO-BO like these. There's been an over-reliance on heavy CO-CO designs for along time namely the 66. But that was lack of technology. Hopefully now the technology exists for a BO-BO to match and/or exceed a 66 in pulling power then we'll see more come along in the near future. Of course there's still gunna be a market for CO-CO locos on the very heaviest trains but since Intermodal is the fastest growing sector of railfreight and the fact that to keep up with demand and expectations of customers and the demand for paths on contested lines, Intermodal is going to have to move at 100mph soon, within the next decade I can see 66's been unsuitable for Intermodal Work and relegated by locos such as the 68.

Does anyone know if a 100mph flat wagon is in development yet? W H Davis Sl45 or VTG ecofret. I can see a 100mph of either been very popular.

 

[GB]

Would track and structures cope with that amount of tonnage at that sort of speed?

 

[CosherB]

With around 450-ish Class 66's produced since 1998, and a further 30 Class 70's, these will be the mainstay of UK freight haulage for the next 20 to 30 years. 30 Class 67's and 25 Class 68's aren't going to change that!

 

[paulclass43]

With around 450-ish Class 66's produced since 1998, and a further 30 Class 70's, these will be the mainstay of UK freight haulage for the next 20 to 30 years. 30 Class 67's and 25 Class 68's aren't going to change that!

Your assuming that the Class 68 is going to be the only BO-BO design to come about in the next decade? 20-30 years nah the industry won't wait around for them. If they do they'll lose hard earned business to road hauliers. It's not the Class 68 itself that is going to drive change, it will be the customer that do that, like they always have done and will continue to do so, and even 450 Class 66's aren't going to be able to prevent that. So unless a miracle occurs and a Class 66 is experimentally re-geared for 100mph running and is successful in going so then they aren't going to last long. The next decade is gunna be a very expensive one for FOC's. The simple fact is that railfreight needs to move faster, 75mph just about cuts it now, in ten years time that's going to be considered very slow. Think HAA hopper vs HTA hoppers they allowed more coal to be moved more quickly. Now just like the hoppers there will shortly be a demand for a wagon that maximises the carrying capacity for 4000 boxes, can carry 9ft 6inch boxes on not gauge cleared routes and can move at 100mph with a capable loco. A principal that has been demonstrated time and time again throughout the world is that you rather innovate and give the customer what they want or you lose out the to your competitors.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would track and structures cope with that amount of tonnage at that sort of speed?

It would be possible, but a 4 axle wagon would limit where you can operate at these kinds of speed. I reckon a 100mph wagon would have to be 6 axle development on an existing design. A bit radical here but common in Europe.

 

[HSTEd]

And yet every other attempt at high speed freight has failed miserably - just look at the Super-C.

75mph freight still allows next day delivery between any two points in the UK - there is little need to go faster.
And it causes all sorts of pathing issues as 100mph freight would certainly have to be on all the fast lines.

And 75mph freight on a proper run will beat road transport every time - especially since Hauliers are now required to travel at 90kph and no more.

 

[DownSouth]

And 75mph freight on a proper run will beat road transport every time - especially since Hauliers are now required to travel at 90kph and no more.

Assuming that the rail operator can get it to/from where the trains are loaded/unloaded efficiently.

A rail operator which requires clients work out their own transport to and from terminals is not trying hard enough to win business.

 

[Mag_seven]

Sheds, shed, sheds and yet more sheds. I am getting bloody sick of sheds. Thank god for 70's and 68's!

 

[D365]

Sheds, shed, sheds and yet more sheds. I am getting bloody sick of sheds. Thank god for 70's and 68's!

Thank god we haven't heard of any more spontaneous combustion incidents :P

 

[CosherB]

Your assuming that the Class 68 is going to be the only BO-BO design to come about in the next decade? 20-30 years nah the industry won't wait around for them. If they do they'll lose hard earned business to road hauliers. It's not the Class 68 itself that is going to drive change, it will be the customer that do that, like they always have done and will continue to do so, and even 450 Class 66's aren't going to be able to prevent that. So unless a miracle occurs and a Class 66 is experimentally re-geared for 100mph running and is successful in going so then they aren't going to last long. The next decade is gunna be a very expensive one for FOC's. The simple fact is that railfreight needs to move faster, 75mph just about cuts it now, in ten years time that's going to be considered very slow. Think HAA hopper vs HTA hoppers they allowed more coal to be moved more quickly. Now just like the hoppers there will shortly be a demand for a wagon that maximises the carrying capacity for 4000 boxes, can carry 9ft 6inch boxes on not gauge cleared routes and can move at 100mph with a capable loco. A principal that has been demonstrated time and time again throughout the world is that you rather innovate and give the customer what they want or you lose out the to your competitors.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


It would be possible, but a 4 axle wagon would limit where you can operate at these kinds of speed. I reckon a 100mph wagon would have to be 6 axle development on an existing design. A bit radical here but common in Europe.

I think you may be creating solutions for problems that don't exist.

1) I'm not assuming that the Clas 68 will be the last Bo-Bo, and have never said as much. Indeed, I'd expect another iteration of this loco going forward to satisfy the mixed-use demand for them. I'd expect far more investment, however, in the likes of the Class 88, with last-mile diesel engines.
2) I don't believe the freight industry will change over the coming years to such an extent that it will render the procurement policies of DBS, Freightliner, GBRf, Colas, DRS etc redundant and leave many hundreds of millions of pounds in strategic investment idle. Class 66's are here to stay for a long time.
3) Specifically, which customers are driving the change to higher speed rail freight traffic? As others have also said, there just isn't the demand for it (as far as us mere mortals know), so I'm interested in knowing the background to these assertions ..... and how on earth the network is going to handle it.

 

[Jamesb1974]

Your assuming that the Class 68 is going to be the only BO-BO design to come about in the next decade? 20-30 years nah the industry won't wait around for them. If they do they'll lose hard earned business to road hauliers. It's not the Class 68 itself that is going to drive change, it will be the customer that do that, like they always have done and will continue to do so, and even 450 Class 66's aren't going to be able to prevent that. So unless a miracle occurs and a Class 66 is experimentally re-geared for 100mph running and is successful in going so then they aren't going to last long. The next decade is gunna be a very expensive one for FOC's. The simple fact is that railfreight needs to move faster, 75mph just about cuts it now, in ten years time that's going to be considered very slow.

I think the move will be towards increased train lengths and network capacity, rather than outright speed. Don't forget, 75 mph is still 15 mph above the national motorway limit for a Large goods vehicle, or if you go over the industry standard of 53-56 mph, 19-22 mph more. A longer train, carrying more boxes is still going to transport more than a lorry, so I don't think the argument that customers are driving faster speeds really stacks up.

 

[HSTEd]

With spreading electrification I would expect EFMUs to take off before 100mph freight operations. (Electric Freight Multiple Units - on relatively simple container diagrams they have important benefits, and with 25kV making huge power outputs available they will be able to accelerate like anything).

 

[Jamesb1974]

With spreading electrification I would expect EFMUs to take off before 100mph freight operations. (Electric Freight Multiple Units - on relatively simple container diagrams they have important benefits, and with 25kV making huge power outputs available they will be able to accelerate like anything).

This isn't really my field of expertise, but could someone confirm or deny whether a freight train travelling at a higher speed generates more track forces than the same weight train travelling slower?

I suspect that (for example) a 1500t freight train travelling at 100 mph would give the track a far heavier pounding than a 1500t train travelling at 60 or 75mph.

 

[D365]

This isn't really my field of expertise, but could someone confirm or deny whether a freight train travelling at a higher speed generates more track forces than the same weight train travelling slower?

I suspect that (for example) a 1500t freight train travelling at 100 mph would give the track a far heavier pounding than a 1500t train travelling at 60 or 75mph.

As it's the same force applied over a shorter duration, I'd imagine the track deforms more. Without knowing much into the field either

 

[GB]

This isn't really my field of expertise, but could someone confirm or deny whether a freight train travelling at a higher speed generates more track forces than the same weight train travelling slower?

I suspect that (for example) a 1500t freight train travelling at 100 mph would give the track a far heavier pounding than a 1500t train travelling at 60 or 75mph.

I'd say it must do, otherwise we wouldn't have 3973HAW restrictions on certain parts of the network.

 

[Legzr1]

As it's the same force applied over a shorter duration, I'd imagine the track deforms more. Without knowing much into the field either

Not so much track deformation, more to do with impact to surrounding infrastructure - the 3973 haws mentioned above are almost always in areas with old/weak underbridges.

There's a formula somewhere explaining the exponential force increase with increased speed but it's been years since I've seen it - basically, keep it below 24t per axle and you're fine up to 60mph on most of the network.

 

[Jamesb1974]

Not so much track deformation, more to do with impact to surrounding infrastructure - the 3973 haws mentioned above are almost always in areas with old/weak underbridges.

There's a formula somewhere explaining the exponential force increase with increased speed but it's been years since I've seen it - basically, keep it below 24t per axle and you're fine up to 60mph on most of the network.

Cheers, I thought as much (explains the HAW forms). Which brings me full circle to why I asked in the first place. All this talk of 100 mph freight services would cost that much money to implement, that I think 75mph will be the top speed for a class 4 for a long time to come.

The amount of money saved by increasing freight speeds to 100 mph would be dwarfed by the outlay to upgrade the network to cope. I just can't see it happening.

 

[Chris125]

With spreading electrification I would expect EFMUs to take off before 100mph freight operations. (Electric Freight Multiple Units - on relatively simple container diagrams they have important benefits, and with 25kV making huge power outputs available they will be able to accelerate like anything).

More powerful locos and/or double heading is a far easier way to improve performance than trying to operate intermodals with multiple units - I can't see that being a workable idea given the inherent inflexibility and lack of room under a standard container flat.

Chris