GEML: Barrier to upgrade?

[TRIAR]

Can someone explain why, in 2017, we have the situation where the fastest morning peak train London -> Norwich (~115 miles) takes 1hr and 44min (with 2 stops), whereas the the similar London -> Bristol Parkway (~112 miles - also 2 stops) is 25mins quicker?

Both have 2 stops, both are HSTs, however the GEML has the benefits of electrification & flatter terrain. With electrification & Class 800s on their way, surely this differential will become even larger.

What is the underlying reason that makes improving the GEML so difficult?

 

[DasLunatic]

There are several reasons why the London-Bristol train is faster, namely:

- Higher linespeed (125mph v 100mph)
- Longer quadruple track section (the equivalent on the GEML would be quadrupling London to Colchester)

To increase GEML linespeed, you'd need to completely remodel and potentially move Chelmsford station (60mph around the station) to quadruple it, rebuild all the intermediate stations between Shenfield and Colchester at great cost, improve the OHLE, etc etc. The total cost of this would be in the high hundreds of millions, if not the billions.

 

[Z12XE]

And the most important factor - all the whinging and complaining from those who want the improvements about the weekends of rail replacement

Just like they are at the moment with the whole Shenfield/Crossrail/OLE renewals.

 

[AM9]

... Both have 2 stops, both are HSTs, ...

Really! The Norwich trains are Class 90s pulling MKIII coaches which as a train can do a maximum of 110mph, subject to linespeed restrictions. The HSTs are on the GWML and the only common factor is the use of MKIII coaches.

 

[TheEdge]

There are several reasons why the London-Bristol train is faster, namely:

- Higher linespeed (125mph v 100mph)
- Longer quadruple track section (the equivalent on the GEML would be quadrupling London to Colchester)

To increase GEML linespeed, you'd need to completely remodel and potentially move Chelmsford station (60mph around the station) to quadruple it, rebuild all the intermediate stations between Shenfield and Colchester at great cost, improve the OHLE, etc etc. The total cost of this would be in the high hundreds of millions, if not the billions.

Don't forget a replacement of Trowse Bridge and re-design of the junction. And all the half barrier crossings and foot crossings between Ipswich and Norwich. And freight congestion in both directions.

Oh, and a silly restrictive throat in Liverpool Street.

And Ipswich.

Of course also the single lead junction at Haughley Junction. And plently of flat junctions.

So its a minor job, easily done...

 

[TheEdge]

Both have 2 stops, both are HSTs, however the GEML has the benefits of electrification & flatter terrain.

No, it isn't flatter. The GWML was built with buckets of money thrown at Mr Brunel by the cities of Bristol and London so he had the option of just bulldozing through the landscape leaving it as straight and flat as possible, hence the regular large cuttings and embankments.

The GEML was built with less money and it shows with far less substantial earthworks. Trains drop into Ipswich noticeably towards the station which is nestled in the Orwell Valley, it then climbs the other side of the valley, summits, drops into the Stour Valley, stops at Manningtree, climbs out again, summits, drops into the Colne Valley, Colchester, climbs again. Then of course there is Brentwood Bank, which climbs from Harold Wood to Brentwood at gradients between 1:80 to 1:156 which is pretty steep. Its claimed in perfect conditions a train could coast over the summit of the bank and arrive into Liverpool Street without taking power again.

 

[Bald Rick]

.

What is the underlying reason that makes improving the GEML so difficult?

Apart from the signalling spaced for 100mph Max, the scores of level crossings, the OLE north of Chelmsford designed for 100mph max, the trains, the challenge of the timetable in squeezing in an intercity service, an intense outer suburban service and the busiest rail intermodal port in the country...

... the main 'underlying' reason is that most of Brunel's railway is built on rock, whereas most of the GEML is built on marsh or bog.

Nevertheless GA are contracted to deliver a few services from London to Norwich and v.v. in 1h30 from a couple of years time. Although there are at least 4 people on this forum who don't believe it will happen, or at least, won't happen without making several other train services slower to facilitate it.

 

[eastdyke]

Apart from the signalling spaced for 100mph Max, the scores of level crossings, the OLE north of Chelmsford designed for 100mph max, the trains, the challenge of the timetable in squeezing in an intercity service, an intense outer suburban service and the busiest rail intermodal port in the country...

... the main 'underlying' reason is that most of Brunel's railway is built on rock, whereas most of the GEML is built on marsh or bog.

Nevertheless GA are contracted to deliver a few services from London to Norwich and v.v. in 1h30 from a couple of years time. Although there are at least 4 people on this forum who don't believe it will happen, or at least, won't happen without making several other train services slower to facilitate it.

Make that at least 5. And add 'and make the timetable even less resilient in times of disruption'.

 

[jopsuk]

clearly what the whole thing needs is two extra tracks from Liverpool Street to Ipswich. Anyone got a few £billion handy?

 

[eastdyke]

clearly what the whole thing needs is two extra tracks from Liverpool Street to Ipswich. Anyone got a few £billion handy?

Make that to Haughley Junction for just a few $ more.

 

[yorksrob]

I remember seeing exactly the same issues being raised about the line on a documentary twenty-five years ago.

IMO they should forget about trying to run to Norwich in 1:30 (dream on) and concentrate on running a reliable, quality service with an InterCity ambience within similar to current timescales. Whether whatever replaces the mk3's will fulfill this task remains to be seen.

 

[eastdyke]

I remember seeing exactly the same issues being raised about the line on a documentary twenty-five years ago.

IMO they should forget about trying to run to Norwich in 1:30 (dream on) and concentrate on running a reliable, quality service with an InterCity ambience within similar to current timescales. Whether whatever replaces the mk3's will fulfill this task remains to be seen.

'Norwich in 90' was a political campaign, manna to (amongst others) estate agents and developers in Norwich. Only a very small percentage of journeys will ever be made in 90 minutes, after all one of the USP's for Norwich is 'how near, yet so far'. It's not many years since Norwich was first connected to anywhere by dual carriageway.

The users of the GEML would IMO be better served by a robust 20 minute interval service at around 110 minutes end to end.

The fact that we are in this apparent situation reflects badly on how 'The Industry' interacts with politicians.

 

[yorksrob]

'Norwich in 90' was a political campaign, manna to (amongst others) estate agents and developers in Norwich. Only a very small percentage of journeys will ever be made in 90 minutes, after all one of the USP's for Norwich is 'how near, yet so far'. It's not many years since Norwich was first connected to anywhere by dual carriageway.

The users of the GEML would IMO be better served by a robust 20 minute interval service at around 110 minutes end to end.

The fact that we are in this apparent situation reflects badly on how 'The Industry' interacts with politicians.

This rings very true.

 

[Alfie1014]

An inverse example of how congested the GE is happened this weekend. Yesterday (Saturday) we actually had a full service on the main line for the first time in many weeks, however the Southend Victoria branch was closed for engineering works beyond Shenfield. Passengers were bused to Shenfield to pick up main line and TfL Rail services which commenced running through again yesterday.

I was on the 10:05 Up from Clacton and after departing right time at Shenfield I became aware that we were making speedier progress than normal on the approach to Stratford arriving here slightly early, in comparision to almost always slightly late under normal circumstances. Right away to Liverpool Street to arrive 3 early again pretty unusual normally this horuly path gets in a minute or two late. The reason no Southend Vic service right in front of us from Shenfield, 20 mins start to stop with a Stratford stop. Not spectacular in modern terms but an example of the difference to a route almost at full capacity for much of the day normally.

Solution; come the revolution excile the Southend Vic services back to the Electric Lines (when they used to be in days of yore), and give the main lines back to the big boys, just joking!

 

[Z12XE]

Solution; come the revolution excile the Southend Vic services back to the Electric Lines (when they used to be in days of yore), and give the main lines back to the big boys, just joking!

That's almost right, what should have been happening was the train you were on should also be freeing up capacity - it should have gone into platform 5 at Colchester and terminated there. All change please, all change.

Leave the mainline capacity for the even bigger boys.

 

[DerekC]

GWML is not at full capacity and doesn't have a fast lines stop until Reading, which has just had £squillions spent on it to eliminate the bottleneck - so there's less interaction between fast and slow(er) services, so the timetable can be optimised to reduce journey time.

 

[43074]

GWML is not at full capacity and doesn't have a fast lines stop until Reading, which has just had £squillions spent on it to eliminate the bottleneck - so there's less interaction between fast and slow(er) services, so the timetable can be optimised to reduce journey time.

There might be less interaction between fast and slow services but both fast and slow lines are as intensively used on GWML, meaning that between London and Reading it is basically at full capacity... the timetable is skewed to provide longer journey times and more capacity over that section (e.g. when the HSTs were introduced London to Reading took 23 minutes, now it's 27), even if the mix of trains on fast/slow lines is more consistent.

The Didcot to Oxford section is in many ways comparable to the GEML between Shenfield and Colchester, albeit over a shorter distance - a mix of InterCity, XC and local passenger, as well as quite a bit of freight between Southampton, the Midlands & North West.

 

[Ianno87]

There might be less interaction between fast and slow services but both fast and slow lines are as intensively used on GWML, meaning that between London and Reading it is basically at full capacity... the timetable is skewed to provide longer journey times and more capacity over that section (e.g. when the HSTs were introduced London to Reading took 23 minutes, now it's 27), even if the mix of trains on fast/slow lines is more consistent.

The Didcot to Oxford section is in many ways comparable to the GEML between Shenfield and Colchester, albeit over a shorter distance - a mix of InterCity, XC and local passenger, as well as quite a bit of freight between Southampton, the Midlands & North West.

The point is that the GWML is full of trains all largely doing the same thing. Fast trains run on the Main Lines, Slow trains run on the Relief Lines, and that's about it. So no barriers to haring a train to Bristol Parkway with little in the way to slow it down (there is a bit of freight mixed in west of Didcot, admittedly)

Compare with the GEML which is a mish mash of services and stopping patterns, all sharing the same two tracks between Shenfield and Ipswich. With lots of intermediate places whose populations enjoy having trains stopping to serve them.

 

[dk1]

I remember seeing exactly the same issues being raised about the line on a documentary twenty-five years ago.

IMO they should forget about trying to run to Norwich in 1:30 (dream on) and concentrate on running a reliable, quality service with an InterCity ambience within similar to current timescales. Whether whatever replaces the mk3's will fulfill this task remains to be seen.

Norwich in 90 is quite easy & ive done it several times before. Shame about the other trains that get in my way

 

[tsangpogorge]

Would a faster journey time to Norwich not have a detrimental impact on the local economy? Places served by HS1 like Ashford are all but dormitory towns for London commuters with close to no middle and upper tax band jobs left in the local area also it just adds more strain to TfL services which are running above capacity during the peaks. Crossrail 2 is in the planning stage and Crossrail 3 has already been mentioned in passing, seems like we'll soon run out of practical solutions to overcrowding if commuter demand continues to increase which it will anyway once HS2 is built.

 

[ginger]

Norwich in 90 is quite easy & ive done it several times before. Shame about the other trains that get in my way

you mean mine! and the tens of thousands of people who actually pay for the railway? As opposed the 10% of ninties who "demand" preferential treatment......

And I used to live in Norfolk (love all East Anglian railways) so I get both sides of the argument......just took my 8 year old for his forst cab ride in one of the 101s I used to rise when I was a kid LOL.....he is hooked!!!

Alas the economics dictate (as they should) that the Essex commuters should get priority!

(Cue abuse LOL)

 

[RichW1]

I think we need to just forget about this being an Intercity line - the infrastructure and speeds are nothing of the kind. Accept it is a regional line, and you'll feel much better and less frustrated as I am now. By the time the new trains come in, I think a total reclassification for 2020 should be forthcoming - Anything less than 125mph being reached on part a route (whatever train you use) is just a regional express line. The time it takes on 100mph railways is not worthy of Intercity.

The Southwestern lines are already regional only trains and so Norwich will be too. Take GEML out and you have all other main lines capable of 125mph, and of 'Intercity' standard for a classic line with no high speed sections and lights on sticks railways.

It is worth mentioning though, that Diss should not be called at, nor Manningtree by Intercity trains, Stowmarket too. Ipswich to Norwich is flat, straight, and there is no land easier upon which to create fast trains, so there is no excuse except money stopping Ipswich to Norwich being 125mph stretch knocking off many minutes.

 

[captainbigun]

Ipswich to Norwich may be flat, that doesn't make the infrastructure cheap to maintain. Quite the opposite in fact.

Why would you invest in 125mph stock to run 45 miles or so at 125mph? Care to calculate the time saving over 100mph and re-think?

GEML is a regional route. Norwich is <10% of the market, this dictates priority, and that isn't Norwich in 90.

 

[GB]

Ipswich to Norwich is not what I would consider "flat".

 

[TheEdge]

It is worth mentioning though, that Diss should not be called at, nor Manningtree by Intercity trains, Stowmarket too. Ipswich to Norwich is flat, straight, and there is no land easier upon which to create fast trains, so there is no excuse except money stopping Ipswich to Norwich being 125mph stretch knocking off many minutes.

It doesn't matter how many times people say Norwich - Ipswich is flat and straight that doesn't make it true...

Diss is called at like it is for local traffic between Diss and Norwich, which is considerable. Manningtree however...

 

[eastdyke]

I think we need to just forget about this being an Intercity line - the infrastructure and speeds are nothing of the kind. Accept it is a regional line, and you'll feel much better and less frustrated as I am now. By the time the new trains come in, I think a total reclassification for 2020 should be forthcoming - Anything less than 125mph being reached on part a route (whatever train you use) is just a regional express line. The time it takes on 100mph railways is not worthy of Intercity.

The Southwestern lines are already regional only trains and so Norwich will be too. Take GEML out and you have all other main lines capable of 125mph, and of 'Intercity' standard for a classic line with no high speed sections and lights on sticks railways.

It is worth mentioning though, that Diss should not be called at, nor Manningtree by Intercity trains, Stowmarket too. Ipswich to Norwich is flat, straight, and there is no land easier upon which to create fast trains, so there is no excuse except money stopping Ipswich to Norwich being 125mph stretch knocking off many minutes.

Money would seem to be a quite satisfactory reason (not excuse!).

The GEML was largely built to contour. Between Ipswich and Norwich, the route rises slowly up the Gipping Valley to just beyond Stowmarket but the route is not straight. The valley is narrow (especially when eg compared with the Thames valley route of the GWML).

After Haughley the route is largely 'straight' but rises in and out of the minor (river) valleys before dropping into Norwich.

With statements like those above it would seem that you are not planning to stand for political office in East Anglia any time soon or for that matter providing advice to the local TOC on passenger revenue. No TOC will ever wish to eschew the revenue to be earned from passengers to/from Manningtree, Stowmarket and Diss.

It remains to be seen whether or not the small number of 'Norwich in 90' services will call at any of the places that you mention (I suspect not).

Perhaps, when the time comes, you would like to volunteer to break the news?

 

[RichW1]

Money would seem to be a quite satisfactory reason (not excuse!).

The GEML was largely built to contour. Between Ipswich and Norwich, the route rises slowly up the Gipping Valley to just beyond Stowmarket but the route is not straight. The valley is narrow (especially when eg compared with the Thames valley route of the GWML).

After Haughley the route is largely 'straight' but rises in and out of the minor (river) valleys before dropping into Norwich.

With statements like those above it would seem that you are not planning to stand for political office in East Anglia any time soon or for that matter providing advice to the local TOC on passenger revenue. No TOC will ever wish to eschew the revenue to be earned from passengers to/from Manningtree, Stowmarket and Diss.

It remains to be seen whether or not the small number of 'Norwich in 90' services will call at any of the places that you mention (I suspect not).

Perhaps, when the time comes, you would like to volunteer to break the news?

Well from Stowmarket to Norwich it's pretty flat - you would hardly describe that part of East Anglia as 'hilly' more it's hillocks or 'bumps in the ground' so no I won't be standing for this part of the world - there is not enough money to give it what it needs, and politicians will keep making excuses to not do the hard things that need doing.

 

[EssexGonzo]

you mean mine! and the tens of thousands of people who actually pay for the railway? As opposed the 10% of ninties who "demand" preferential treatment......

And I used to live in Norfolk (love all East Anglian railways) so I get both sides of the argument......just took my 8 year old for his forst cab ride in one of the 101s I used to rise when I was a kid LOL.....he is hooked!!!

Alas the economics dictate (as they should) that the Essex commuters should get priority!

(Cue abuse LOL)

Indeed. No abuse from here.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Essex and Suffolk commuters (and other travellers) are greater in number and travel from much more numerous population centres than Norwich.

Yes, Norwich is the East Anglian Regional Capital and is very lovely (genuinely, I love the place and my son loves UEA) but the Norwich to Liverpool Street line is mostly not about journeys from Norwich to Liverpool Street. It's the centres in between that provide the numbers.

 

[eastdyke]

Indeed. No abuse from here.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Essex and Suffolk commuters (and other travellers) are greater in number and travel from much more numerous population centres than Norwich.

Yes, Norwich is the East Anglian Regional Capital and is very lovely (genuinely, I love the place and my son loves UEA) but the Norwich to Liverpool Street line is mostly not about journeys from Norwich to Liverpool Street. It's the centres in between that provide the numbers.

But if you live in Norwich then it is about that journey. Politicians have been allowed to manoeuvre a very marginal and potentially inefficient expectation.

As I said earlier in the thread, the (meaning all) users of the GEML would IMO be better served by a robust 20 minute interval service at around 110 minutes end to end.

 

[GB]

Well from Stowmarket to Norwich it's pretty flat.

Um, no it isn't.