Geoff Marshall review of Go-Coach's Demand Responsive Transport (DRT) in Sevenoaks

[overthewater]

I think this is a extremely good idea, and could replace many awful and costly council tender routes, surely must be a lot cheaper to run this type of service with what people want, then than operating empty.

* Video:

There are several 'DRT' bus schemes running in the country - that's where you can order a bus using an App on demand, rather than having it scheduled to a timetable. The nice people down at Go Coaches down in Sevenoaks invited me down for the day to try out their service ... and ride on some buses, completely on demand!

 

[Busaholic]

Go Coaches really deserve to succeed, but the area is so affluent it'll always be a struggle. Having said that, if they can't make this work, no-one can.

 

[PeterC]

There are a number of factors that work against the success of DRT and there have been a lot of failures.

The only ones that I have known to run commercially have been to airports.

 

[LUYMun]

If this DRT scheme would have to work, major bus companies should try running it, and properly advertised (like GoCoach, well done them). Arriva has their Click, maybe Stagecoach and First should board the demand bus to see if it suits them.

Likewise, DRTs should be tested in many environments across the country, urban to rural, to see if this will really work with the public.

 

[anthony263]

Stagecoach are doing DRT now in the Rhondda Valley around Tonypandy and Gilfach Goch etc

 

[overthewater]

SPT has a services like this but I can't see the difference?

 

[edwin_m]

DRT was discussed at length recently here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/demand-responsive-transport-lessons-learned.205430/

 

[Bungle965]

Anyone who wishes to discuss the various merits/drawbacks of Demand Responsive Transport feel free to use the thread posted above.
This thread is for discussions regarding DRT in Sevenoaks.
Thanks

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I think this is a extremely good idea, and could replace many awful and costly council tender routes, surely must be a lot cheaper to run this type of service with what people want, then than operating empty.

* Video:

There is probably a good reason why all those buses are parked on the pavement, also on double yellows, but I can't quite think what it would be at the moment!

 

[duncombec]

There is probably a good reason why all those buses are parked on the pavement, also on double yellows, but I can't quite think what it would be at the moment!

From memory, that thumbnail shows outside their depot, which is on a dead-end road in an industrial estate, and the double-yellows are probably there to aid access to and egress from the bus depot!

 

[MotCO]

Go2 is financially supported by Kent CC which obviously helps its sustainability. The council previously supported Go-Coach's network, so the subsidy was just simply transferred. Kent CC must also be supporting it service-wise, so there is obviously a determination for it to succeed, despite other DRT services elsewhere biting the dust.

Roger French has also commented on Go2 https://busandtrainuser.com/2020/06/04/go2-going-steady/comment-page-1/#comment-20462. The owner of Go-Coach is a 'real' busman and engineer by background, and must obviously know the patch well, having developed the company from nothing to where it is 12 years later. The other nugget I picked up from Geoff's video is that Go Coach has a 100% first time MOT pass rate, which speaks volumes as to how this company presents itself. All buses are always in fleet livery. This company, and Go2, deserves to succeed.

 

[Busaholic]

Go2 is financially supported by Kent CC which obviously helps its sustainability. The council previously supported Go-Coach's network, so the subsidy was just simply transferred. Kent CC must also be supporting it service-wise, so there is obviously a determination for it to succeed, despite other DRT services elsewhere biting the dust.

Roger French has also commented on Go2 https://busandtrainuser.com/2020/06/04/go2-going-steady/comment-page-1/#comment-20462. The owner of Go-Coach is a 'real' busman and engineer by background, and must obviously know the patch well, having developed the company from nothing to where it is 12 years later. The other nugget I picked up from Geoff's video is that Go Coach has a 100% first time MOT pass rate, which speaks volumes as to how this company presnts itself. All buses are always in fleet livery. This company, and Go2, derserves to succeed.

There's a man who knows his subject. Interesting that two independent bus companies with this ethos have grown up close to each other's areas over the years, the first being Metrobus prior to Go-Ahead ownership.

 

[RogerOut]

My apologies I actually started a thread on this topic without realising this one already existed!

Having watched the video, it’s certainly an interesting idea, although time will tell if it’s successful or not. I believe other companies have tried this before. The difference is now with modern technology, it will easier to see how successful it is.
Does every journey have to Ben pre booked? I can imagine lots of confused people , particularly older people wondering where the bus is going.
Also how does it work with concessionary bus pass holders? Can they use their free pass?

 

[GusB]

My apologies I actually started a thread on this topic without realising this one already existed!

Having watched the video, it’s certainly an interesting idea, although time will tell if it’s successful or not. I believe other companies have tried this before. The difference is now with modern technology, it will easier to see how successful it is.
Does every journey have to Ben pre booked? I can imagine lots of confused people , particularly older people wondering where the bus is going.
Also how does it work with concessionary bus pass holders? Can they use their free pass?

I change the thread title to include "Go-Coach" after you posted your thread as it could be easy to miss.

From what I saw in the video, everything has to be booked via their system, but they provide three ways to do this:

• Via the smartphone app
• Calling the booking line
• In person at the travel shop - the assistant there will enter the booking onto the system for you

You indicate whether you're paying by card or cash when you make your booking, although I can't remember what the case was for concessionary passes - I'd imagine it'd just be the same as using it on a scheduled point-to-point service. There's no reason why other organisations couldn't be allowed access to the booking software, for example at health centres or at the customer service desk in supermarkets - essentially anywhere where there are likely to be people waiting to go somewhere.

It's certainly an interesting system, and one that could also work quite well with taxi companies if smaller vehicles were required. I can't speak for all Local Authorities, but ride sharing is catered for within the rules of my local council provided that each passenger knows when they book that they'll be sharing their car with someone else.

 

[RogerOut]

As mentioned, Sevenoaks is quite an affluent area. But Go- Coach from what I’ve heard seem like a good enough company, I’ve seen a fair amount on rail replacement jobs.
I do wonder if they will ever tender for any of the Orpington and Bromley area TFL routes, having said that they may prefer the Kent CC work.

 

[NorthOxonian]

One downside to the DRT approach is that presumably the Discovery day ticket (which is surprisingly well used for a multi-operator ticket) won't be valid on those routes. Therefore, if someone is travelling from the outskirts of Sevenoaks town to (for example) Tunbridge Wells, they may now have to pay more for their journey.

 

[GusB]

I think the key to this particular operation is that they're using a tailored software solution rather than some kind of manual-ish booking system. The people taking the bookings don't have to worry themselves about how the journeys are being allocated and can spend more time on customer interaction. The buses still appear to be going point-to-point to an extent, but each additional booking adds a little diversion here and there - this shouldn't be an issue as long as the passengers are aware of this and their journey isn't time-critical. If it is time-critical they could possibly be offered the option of a solo point-to-point journey, with a relevant premium on the fare while taking into account the relevant discount the passenger would have with a pass. This would essentially be like a taxi journey, and could quite easily be operated by an actual taxi instead of a bus.

It's blurring the lines between different modes of transport, but maybe that's not a bad thing. Perhaps "blended" is a better word - if you want a personal point-to-point service, you get charged extra, otherwise you need to accept that others will be sharing the vehicle with you and you may have to wait a little bit longer than you would had you booked a regular taxi.

 

[RJ]

The owner of Go-Coach is a 'real' busman and engineer by background, and must obviously know the patch well, having developed the company from nothing to where it is 12 years later. The other nugget I picked up from Geoff's video is that Go Coach has a 100% first time MOT pass rate, which speaks volumes as to how this company presents itself. All buses are always in fleet livery. This company, and Go2, deserves to succeed.

He's a good man - helped me out when I first started with my buses and becoming an operator. I'd thoroughly recommend the services of The Bus Doctor and wish Go Coach every success with the scheme!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's certainly an interesting system, and one that could also work quite well with taxi companies if smaller vehicles were required.

The same system was being trialled in MK by ViaVan themselves using 9 seater Mercedes "minibuses" which is probably a better fit. It wasn't really working, though (it was basically acting as a cheap taxi service, with only one passenger at a time, because journeys weren't naturally matching up), and I think they knocked it on the head for COVID.

The software itself does seem to work, it's the concept that's an issue.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

For the convenience of the viewer, I attach some Google shots of demand responsive public transport in Nairobi, Kenya.

Bus services in the city used to be well regulated, running to fixed routes and timetables. For a while they were owned by Stagecoach, having been owned by United Transport (Red & White etc) since the 1920's.

Then politicians intervened. Regulation and monitoring declined substantially. Matutu (minibuses) and Boda Boda (motorbikes) became the norm. In theory, all routes require registration. In practice, operators run when they like, where they like, however they like. There are no fixed routes, there is no list of services nor map of routes, times of operation (frequency or first/last) are not fixed, fares double when it rains, criminal cartels/gangs are involved. I would not like to rely on 'public' transport in Nairobi.

Recently some attempts have been made to regularise matters, with variable results.

Many African cities are the same.

Pray that we do not go down this route in the UK. I prefer my buses scheduled and regulated, thanks all the same.

Attached pictures:
12 Central bus station: The top half is the 'formal' bus station, the lower half the 'matutu' terminal.
Koja bus terminal 4: A close look on Google Streetview reveals this used to be a proper bus station.
Station terminal 3: outside the central railway station.
KBS 04: the successor to United / Stagecoach - Kenya Bus Services

 

[Typhoon]

You indicate whether you're paying by card or cash when you make your booking, although I can't remember what the case was for concessionary passes - I'd imagine it'd just be the same as using it on a scheduled point-to-point service. There's no reason why other organisations couldn't be allowed access to the booking software, for example at health centres or at the customer service desk in supermarkets - essentially anywhere where there are likely to be people waiting to go somewhere.

English National Concessionary Travel Scheme Passes (or ENCTS passes) will be accepted through the app and by telephone for travel on our Go2 service upto 8 miles, any journeys longer than 8 miles will be required to pay a fare.

Kent County Council Young Person Travel Saver and 16+ Travel Saver will be accepted through the app and by telephone for travel across our Go2 network.

From http://www.go2now.co.uk/?page_id=82

 

[MotCO]

As mentioned, Sevenoaks is quite an affluent area. But Go- Coach from what I’ve heard seem like a good enough company, I’ve seen a fair amount on rail replacement jobs.
I do wonder if they will ever tender for any of the Orpington and Bromley area TFL routes, having said that they may prefer the Kent CC work.

I've wondered about that as well, considering that they also operate out of the former LT bus garage at Swanley, which First also used to operate their Orpington network.

Three things against this though. Firstly, don't they have to be on TfL's 'approved list', not that I would see that as being a particular problem. Also there is much bureaucracy involved in conforming to TfL's contract conditions. Secondly, Go-Coach and their owner know the Sevenoaks patch very well - do they know the Orpington or Bromley patch so well? Thirdly, would they be able to afford the capital investment required? I think I'm right in thinking that all new single deckers need to be electric buses, so Go-Coach would either need to invest in new electric buses and their infrastructure, or source a number of compliant second-hand single deckers. Would it stretch the company too much?

 

[Typhoon]

One downside to the DRT approach is that presumably the Discovery day ticket (which is surprisingly well used for a multi-operator ticket) won't be valid on those routes. Therefore, if someone is travelling from the outskirts of Sevenoaks town to (for example) Tunbridge Wells, they may now have to pay more for their journey.

Sevenoaks to T Wells - Arriva 401(Sun) or 402. Discovery should be accepted on these buses.

Go-Coach really only links with the outside world from Sevenoaks northwards (Orpington & Swanley - Discovery not valid there), South (Tonbridge via Sevenoaks Weald - use Arriva 401/ 402) and West (to Westerham where you can catch a Southdown bus). The latter would be the main problem. There is one journey that almost gets to Tunbridge Wells but that is a school bus.

There is no mention of Go2 on the Discovery Ticket page as being excluded but that could be because it is relatively new.

It might be possible to develop DRT north of Sevenoaks but Arriva might wish to defend their patch - it would be risky!

 

[route101]

SPT has a services like this but I can't see the difference?

Are you thinking of Mybus or dial bus?

 

[route101]

SPT has a services like this but I can't see the difference?

Are you thinking of Mybus or dial bus?

 

[RogerOut]

I can actually see why an operator like Go coach might want to steer clear of London routes. Firstly, dead running to and from the depot.
Secondly all the regulations like green
buses, electric, low emissions etc etc.
Thirdly having a dedicated Ibus controller.

As a company does anyone know what these guys are like to drive for??

 

[Busaholic]

I've wondered about that as well, considering that they also operate out of the former LT bus garage at Swanley, which First also used to operate their Orpington network.

Three things against this though. Firstly, don't they have to be on TfL's 'approved list', not that I would see that as being a particular problem. Also there is much bureaucracy involved in conforming to TfL's contract conditions. Secondly, Go-Coach and their owner know the Sevenoaks patch very well - do they know the Orpington or Bromley patch so well? Thirdly, would they be able to afford the capital investment required? I think I'm right in thinking that all new single deckers need to be electric buses, so Go-Coach would either need to invest in new electric buses and their infrastructure, or source a number of compliant second-hand single deckers. Would it stretch the company too much?

A possible fourth reason. A report on the company in CBW magazine about three years ago revealed that a few drivers living in the Greater London area who had worked as drivers on TfL services had chosen what was for them the less stressful job of driving in N.W. Kent, allied to less unsocial hours of operation.
It is noticeable that Go-Coach has made no attempt to operate a successor to the 402 into the Greater London area, which armchair planners without recent knowledge of operating conditions might have thought tempting:I know the 431 to Orpington was 'resurrected' for some offpeak journeys in very small part replacement, but I'm discounting that as it doesn't have its own PVR.

 

[Typhoon]

A possible fourth reason. A report on the company in CBW magazine about three years ago revealed that a few drivers living in the Greater London area who had worked as drivers on TfL services had chosen what was for them the less stressful job of driving in N.W. Kent, allied to less unsocial hours of operation.
It is noticeable that Go-Coach has made no attempt to operate a successor to the 402 into the Greater London area, which armchair planners without recent knowledge of operating conditions might have thought tempting:I know the 431 to Orpington was 'resurrected' for some offpeak journeys in very small part replacement, but I'm discounting that as it doesn't have its own PVR.

402 never seemed to be well used when I saw it in the Bromley area. No use of Oyster, did not seem to feature on any TfL publicity, decent rail alternative. I notice Go-Coach's 3, the minimal replacement, is not one of the routes Go-Coach is bringing back later this month.

 

[MotCO]

it doesn't have its own PVR.

Does it work off the Halstead contract?

 

[Pat1105]

Go’s DRT service is effectively a take on Uber. As mentioned, Sevenoaks is an affluent area and from what i’ve seen, people in affluent areas tend to use taxis/private hires if they don’t use the car. Maybe the appeal of a click and go service would appeal in more affluent areas? We shall see...

On the whole, I think Geoff made an excellent video here. Although, I think he is better suited to making videos about the tube/rail etc. I must admit, I was slightly annoyed when he called a solo a “minivan.”