German Rail in decline ?

[Richard Scott]

You've highlighted one of the issues in that for a lot of these sorts of journeys there isn't any choice other than anytime fares, particularly if multiple TOC's are involved.

Know in danger of heading off topic but does split ticketing help?

 

[yorksrob]

Know in danger of heading off topic but does split ticketing help?

Sometimes, but oftentimes not.

 

[Beebman]

The Riedbahn (Line Frankfurt-Biblis-Mannheim) will be closed for three weeks beginning of January. DB is doing preparatory work ahead of the 6 month closure that will take place later this year (when the line will be given a complete makeover). As the aternate routes (via Heidelberg/Darmstadt or Mainz/Worms) cannot accommodate all diverted services, adjustments were necessary: e.g. some trains curtailed to Mannheim instead of Frankfurt or like the mentioned ECs are cancelled.

The whole thing will be hell for the commuters as lots of regional services will be replaced by busses to make room for long distance trains (Replacement service map).

The 3 weeks in January are a bit of trial run as more or less the same service patterns (for both trains and bus services) that will come into effect during the closure later this year will be run.

Local TV report (in German):

English translation:

Until January 22nd, not a single train will run between Mannheim and Frankfurt: This is the preparatory work for the complete closure from July to December. There will be a first interim review on Tuesday.

At 1:20 in the video it says that there's 13 rail replacement bus routes using 150 buses with 1,000 journeys per day.

 

[The Prisoner]

Having just come back from some time in Cologne travelling out to Wuppertal and Dusseldorf whilst there I have to say German ticketing is confusing - you can buy a ticket from Cologne to Dusseldorf from the DB ticketing machine going out travelling on VRS, but have to go to the VRS one coming back - the DB one wouldn't sell it at Dusseldorf.

The ticket on the Schwebebahn in Wuppertal (appreciate this isn't DB) needed validating in an unmarked orange machine as did random other tickets, despite being bought from machines (the Schwebebahn ticket inspector did let us off and manually validate the ticket when he could have charged us 60 Euros penalty fare each - I get the impression this was a regular occurrence).

We weren't there long enough to get the 49 Euros Deutschland ticket (which is a great idea).

Frequencies, quality of train and a largely 24 hour service excellent though.

 

[geoffk]

Aviva, always have used em. But you have to add travel disruption (which includes other disruption as well as strike), and adds 50% to premium.

A good point. I've been using Staysure and will be going to Switzerland via Eurostar, Brussels and through Germany, in May. Not sure if they do travel disruption though.

 

[johncrossley]

Having just come back from some time in Cologne travelling out to Wuppertal and Dusseldorf whilst there I have to say German ticketing is confusing - you can buy a ticket from Cologne to Dusseldorf from the DB ticketing machine going out travelling on VRS, but have to go to the VRS one coming back - the DB one wouldn't sell it at Dusseldorf.

The complexity here is that Cologne is in a different tariff region (VRS) to Wuppertal and Dusseldorf (VRR). Luckily tariff regions overlap in Germany and (as you have noticed) VRS have a machine in Dusseldorf even though it is outside their region. For the most part, the German fare system is good as you pay from zone to zone, meaning that you can use any mode of transport and you don't have to pay extra to travel on from the railway station.

It is usually easier to buy tickets using the app in Germany, as it works out the zones for you, and is sometimes cheaper than ticket machines as well. The VRS website shows the fare from Cologne to Dusseldorf to be 14.10 EUR (Preisstufe 5) but cheaper as "HandyTicket" at 13.67 EUR.

Within the wider state of NRW, there is now a new type of app ticket (eezy) which is priced like the Netherlands OV-Chipkaart fare system, as the pricing is not done on zones but using a base fare + distance x rate calculation like in the Netherlands. This can be advantageous for long distance trips, particularly across tariff regions where the alternative would be two tickets. It works by checking in and out at the start and end of the journey like the Swiss EasyRide ticket.

The VRR site quotes a fare of 9.90 using an eezy ticket between Cologne and Dusseldorf. This is just from station to station. There is daily (32.70 EUR) and monthly (at the 49 EUR Deutschland ticket price) capping with eezy as well as long as all your trips are within the state of NRW.

 

[The exile]

Having just come back from some time in Cologne travelling out to Wuppertal and Dusseldorf whilst there I have to say German ticketing is confusing - you can buy a ticket from Cologne to Dusseldorf from the DB ticketing machine going out travelling on VRS, but have to go to the VRS one coming back - the DB one wouldn't sell it at Dusseldorf.

Unless things have changed, Duesseldorf isn’t in the VRS (it’s VRR - the boundary being somewhere near Leverkusen, IIRC) - neither is Wuppertal. You can travel to Ddorf from cologne on a vrs ticket but you won’t be able to buy a vrs ticket in Ddorf.

 

[duesselmartin]

Although VRS and VRR does have an overlapping fare structure to Düsseldorf.
As to ticket machines, regional authorities such as VRR tender out who sells regional tickets hence the confusion with DB and non DB machines.

 

[nwales58]

Having just come back from some time in Cologne travelling out to Wuppertal and Dusseldorf whilst there I have to say German ticketing is confusing ...

Definitely not Germany in decline - the thread title - the Verkehrsverbund have been around for decades and are one of the really good things about the country.

Wouldn't we like through ticketing across all modes and operators in a region? Yes, it's complicated until you know an area, but any large zonal system is, and cross-region boundaries is often a single ticket unlike say Merseyside+anywhere. Only way to make simpler is contactless tap on+off with capping but you still need comprehensive all-operators all-modes backend to make it work.

It's a massive plus for using public transport. Once you have a single/day/month+ season you travel by any route within those zones.

Contrast with going from Headingley to Hillsborough. Pay 3 times (OK, only once if you pick up the tickets from a railway station) and why do I have to pick a train before I know whether in the next hour alone it's 5.90 6.80 or 20.20???

 

[doc7austin]

With the Deutschlandticket on hand -> you do not need to worry about all those Verkehrsverbünde und zones.

The introduction of the Deutschland is clear sign that Germany's railways are not in decline.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

With the Deutschlandticket on hand -> you do not need to worry about all those Verkehrsverbünde und zones.
The introduction of the Deutschland is clear sign that Germany's railways are not in decline.

I think the "decline" headline is to do with crumbling infrastructure and declining punctuality, rather than the ticketing offer.
DB themselves have a long list of lines/districts where infrastructure improvements are urgently needed.
Like most countries which have invested heavily in new/high speed lines, classic infrastructure has been neglected.
Germany's railway finances are also in deep trouble, exacerbated by inflation/recession.

 

[AdamWW]

I think the "decline" headline is to do with crumbling infrastructure and declining punctuality, rather than the ticketing offer.
DB themselves have a long list of lines/districts where infrastructure improvements are urgently needed.
Like most countries which have invested heavily in new/high speed lines, classic infrastructure has been neglected.
Germany's railway finances are also in deep trouble, exacerbated by inflation/recession.

And of course cheaper tickets potentially reduce the money available to address such decline.

 

[doc7austin]

I think the "decline" headline is to do with crumbling infrastructure and declining punctuality, rather than the ticketing offer.

Have a look at DB infrastructure 30 years ago. Compare that with today - infrastructure is much better.

Like most countries which have invested heavily in new/high speed lines, classic infrastructure has been neglected.

There were tons of investments done in the classic infrastructure in the last 30 years - just have a look at the improvements in East Germany.

Germany's railway finances are also in deep trouble, exacerbated by inflation/recession.

The finances were in shambles 35 years.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And of course cheaper tickets potentially reduce the money available to address such decline.

While the Deutschlandticket is cheap, ICE services very much aren't, their Flexpreis isn't quite as ridiculous as our Anytimes but it's not far off at times.

 

[AdamWW]

While the Deutschlandticket is cheap, ICE services very much aren't, their Flexpreis isn't quite as ridiculous as our Anytimes but it's not far off at times.

No they aren't, though this is of course modified by the fact that anyone can get a railcard for 50% off these. Admittedly it costs quite a bit more than the £30 we charge in the UK but quite a lot less than you'd pay to run a car for a year I think.

 

[duesselmartin]

charges of DB InfraGo (former DB Netze) for using the network are one of the highest in Europe. Furthermore there is hardly a line nowadays which is not dispruted by some sort of engineering works.
As to the DeutschlandTicket, it does not affect DB's income as operators of regional trains are paid per train and not per passenger.

 

[Richard Scott]

No they aren't, though this is of course modified by the fact that anyone can get a railcard for 50% off these. Admittedly it costs quite a bit more than the £30 we charge in the UK but quite a lot less than you'd pay to run a car for a year I think.

But that's not helpful for occasional travellers.
Friend of mine recently went from Berlin to Wernigerode and the price was ridiculous even on regional trains. There wasn't a cheaper option as both of us did the research and know a reasonable amount about travelling around Germany.
If part of a group or a resident then lots of options but as a single tourist it can be extremely expensive.

 

[Trainbike46]

But that's not helpful for occasional travellers.
Friend of mine recently went from Berlin to Wernigerode and the price was ridiculous even on regional trains. There wasn't a cheaper option as both of us did the research and know a reasonable amount about travelling around Germany.
If part of a group or a resident then lots of options but as a single tourist it can be extremely expensive.

It must have been less than €49, if it was more than that you could have just gotten the Deutschlandticket, so it can't have been that bad

 

[BahrainLad]

I did Wernigerode - Halle - Berlin last week, ticket booked three weeks in advance was €64 for First Class including 2 seat reservations on the ICE, and my daughter travelled for free. I thought less than £55 was very reasonable for 2h45 on trains compared to say the price for two of us to go London - Newcastle.

Edit: a quick check of the DB app shows that on Saturday morning (i.e. 5 days time away) you can go Berlin Hbf - Magdeburg - Wernigerode for €26.90 using a 'Regio120plus' ticket. I think that is also very good value.

 

[Richard Scott]

It must have been less than €49, if it was more than that you could have just gotten the Deutschlandticket, so it can't have been that bad

Was just under. It was a weekday and didn't appear to be any cheaper options by booking in advance.

 

[The exile]

Have a look at DB infrastructure 30 years ago. Compare that with today - infrastructure is much better.


There were tons of investments done in the classic infrastructure in the last 30 years - just have a look at the improvements in East Germany.


The finances were in shambles 35 years.

While I accept that I only had brief holiday contact with German railways 30 years ago, I was a resident and regular user both 35 and 25 years ago. The western network then was fairly old-fashioned and clunky but it was reliable. Of course delays and cancellations happened, but they tended to be of the immediate, unavoidable sort and the knock on effect was minimal. There was plenty of slack in timetables, (more than) adequate staffing and rolling stock - all of which helped recover delays (but obviously at an unsustainable price). The years of rationalisation and “market forces” have taken their toll.
Inevitably- any comparison between the infrastructure of DR in 1994 and now is going to show today in a positive light (assuming the line in question has actually survived)

 

[Richard Scott]

I did Wernigerode - Halle - Berlin last week, ticket booked three weeks in advance was €64 for First Class including 2 seat reservations on the ICE, and my daughter travelled for free. I thought less than £55 was very reasonable for 2h45 on trains compared to say the price for two of us to go London - Newcastle.

Edit: a quick check of the DB app shows that on Saturday morning (i.e. 5 days time away) you can go Berlin Hbf - Magdeburg - Wernigerode for €26.90 using a 'Regio120plus' ticket. I think that is also very good value.

It may take 2hr45 mins but I doubt it's anywhere near the distance? Certainly isn't even close on comfort with a reasonable amount of time spent on a class 648 unit!!! Not exactly the most comfortable trains.

 

[BahrainLad]

It may take 2hr45 mins but I doubt it's anywhere near the distance? Certainly isn't even close on comfort with a reasonable amount of time spent on a class 648 unit!!! Not exactly the most comfortable trains.

Fair point although it seemed to be a 1648 (not a 648) which is perhaps some sort of improved version? It had a small but comfortable First section with leather/ish seats, 2-1 seating and wooden tables. Certainly no less comfortable than a Voyager, or a 180.

 

[Richard Scott]

Fair point although it seemed to be a 1648 (not a 648) which is perhaps some sort of improved version? It had a small but comfortable First section with leather/ish seats, 2-1 seating and wooden tables. Certainly no less comfortable than a Voyager, or a 180.


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It was one I those but afraid not a patch on a 180 or Voyager and I'm no fan of either. Only thing in its favour is that the performance is pretty good.
To be honest have always found regional units in Germany are not particularly good (shame as ICE trains amongst the best long distance trains). At least these are better than a 425 but that's not hard.

 

[doc7austin]

While I accept that I only had brief holiday contact with German railways 30 years ago, I was a resident and regular user both 35 and 25 years ago. The western network then was fairly old-fashioned and clunky but it was reliable. Of course delays and cancellations happened, but they tended to be of the immediate, unavoidable sort and the knock on effect was minimal. There was plenty of slack in timetables, (more than) adequate staffing and rolling stock - all of which helped recover delays (but obviously at an unsustainable price).

There is a difference between the (West) German rail network in the early 1990s and the network today.
The number of regional trains (esp. in urban areas) has significantly increased in the last 30 years.
And unfortunately, the current infrastructure cannot handle so much traffic.

Yes, 30 years you had a lot of redundancy in the system. However, esp. in the regions you would find that no regional trains would operate at all on a Sunday.
That is much different today.

 

[The exile]

There is a difference between the (West) German rail network in the early 1990s and the network today.
The number of regional trains (esp. in urban areas) has significantly increased in the last 30 years.
And unfortunately, the current infrastructure cannot handle so much traffic.

Yes, 30 years you had a lot of redundancy in the system. However, esp. in the regions you would find that no regional trains would operate at all on a Sunday.
That is much different today.

Very true - though worth pointing out that with very few exceptions that the infrastructure carrying that increased traffic is still more generously provided than in the uk!

 

[Richard Scott]

Very true - though worth pointing out that with very few exceptions that the infrastructure carrying that increased traffic is still more generously provided than in the uk!

Geography of Germany helps though as there are many largish cities spread around than one big one with a few largish ones, some of which are quite close together as in UK.
To be honest regional services in Germany have generally been fine although frequency was poor when I started going 20 years ago. Frequency has increased in recent years as demand as grown but still usually one train per hour on many routes. IC trains seem to be the ones that suffer most from poor timekeeping.

 

[nwales58]

Not resident there but I used DB quite often for work between the late 1980s and 2005. My recollections, which could be poor, are that it was ultra-reliable apart from international trains until around 1995 after which the standard joke at the start of meetings was already DB: 10 bis 15 Minuten später. Rapid traffic growth and underinvestment was then kicking in (in the west, ex-DDR was a different story obviously).

My post-2010 leisure use feels like a progressive decline in reliability, admittedly concentrated in the Ruhr and longer distance down to Basel, München, Wien. I started planning for worst case 2 hour delays about 2015, from memory. Pre-2005 that was inconceivable because it would have made finishing work in Ulm or Kassel and getting back to northern england same night impractical.

 

[johnnydoe]

It's a German problem. They refuse to speed money on infrastructure until the economy starts to tank. Then the investment happens, the economy recovers and a few decades down the line they again refuse to invest in their infrastructure and the economy starts to tank... Repeat again and again. Currently it doesn't help that the FDP are economic illiterates.

It's a government funding issue and ultimately the public's fault for voting for parties that seem to think you should underinvest in much needed infrastructure.

 

[FormerBritInMe]

It's a German problem. They refuse to speed money on infrastructure until the economy starts to tank. Then the investment happens, the economy recovers and a few decades down the line they again refuse to invest in their infrastructure and the economy starts to tank... Repeat again and again. Currently it doesn't help that the FDP are economic illiterates.

It's a government funding issue and ultimately the public's fault for voting for parties that seem to think you should underinvest in much needed infrastructure.

Sadly, refusing to spend money on infrastructure seems to be a problem in many places besides Germany - the UK (the constant HS2 project cutbacks) and the sad state of passenger railways here in North America being examples.