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I'd personally have settled for revenue neutral given the benefits, but it seems quite obvious by the magnitude of the increases (and savings on Delay Repay) that the change on LNER was considerably revenue positive.
The Treasury wouldn't have agreed to it any other way; this is why, as imperfect as the current system is, further change must be resisted at all cost. The government simply cannot be trusted to 'reform' things in a sensible and reasonable manner. Sadly, worse is probably still to come.
Unfortunately the Single Leg Pricing is being rolled out in the expanded contactless area with a massive fare increase compared to the LNER trial, which includes:
Unfortunately the Single Leg Pricing is being rolled out in the expanded contactless area with a massive fare increase compared to the LNER trial, which includes:
c2c has issued a press release: Rail operator c2c is pleased to announce the introduction of a new and simplified fares and ticketing model from Sunday 3 December. In preparation for the launch of contactless pay as you go across its entire rail network, c2c is introducing a new and...
www.railforums.co.uk
Single leg pricing generally means:
Abolish Off Peak, resulting in hitherto shoulder peak journeys requiring Anytime fares or
Abolish Super Off Peak (potentially including cheap fares at evenings and/or weekends and/or in the middle of the day), resulting in a price increase at those times to Off Peak
and also:
Increase the proportion of journeys which require Anytime fares and/or
Increase the cost of a return journey compared to a single in some or many cases.
What the DfT won't allow us to have is the current range of fares, which enable cheap return journeys to be made at certain times, and for cheap returns to continue to be cheap and be valid at the range of times they are currently.
Therefore any calls for single leg pricing, under the current regime, are a call for fare increases for many passengers, until/unless the current policy changes.
Therefore any calls for single leg pricing, under the current regime, are a call for fare increases for many passengers, until/unless the current policy changes.
I prefer to say that I support single leg pricing (particularly this version of it where return fares at one of the levels still exist at double the single) and consider fare increases for some users as acceptable collateral damage for the benefits of a genuinely simpler and fairer fares system.
People here like, Martyn Lewis style, finding bargains, be they loopholes or supercheap Advances or splits. Simplification removes those bargains, making "canny" users pay less. But I'd rather a simpler system where everyone pays fairly and a degree isn't needed to understand the system.
People here like, Martyn Lewis style, finding bargains, be they loopholes or supercheap Advances or splits. Simplification removes those bargains, making "canny" users pay less. But I'd rather a simpler system where everyone pays fairly and a degree isn't needed to understand the system.
Unfortunately it's a widely-used, intended fare (weekend super off-peak) being removed in the current contactless expansion.
Maybe the post-pandemic change of travel pattern (revenue loss from commuting and crowding on weekend trains) has forced such a change to balance the books.
I must admit, reading the headlines for Project Oval, I'd assumed it was some sort of Oyster extension, however it seems to be just another Government fleecing exercise.
The introduction of evening peak fares is particularly underhand and stupid as it will make it more difficult for people to plan leisure journeys (the sort the railway's relying on for half of its revenue) but then again, what else would we expect
I’ve been warning people on this forum for years that this is what would happen.
I’m not against the rollout of contactless over a wider area but I am against fares increases via the back door, which is what this will be.
Sadly, when it launches it’ll be lauded as a simplification, what passengers want etc. There will be no mention of good value fares that have been withdrawn.
Super Off Peaks on the south WCML are useful to only a very limited number of people. I think removing them and reducing the Off Peak in price a bit (as is the plan I believe) is the right move overall. And if the evening is only Anytime out of London as it seems it is, then that seems reasonable too, steering people away from busier trains. I always had mixed views on the three-step fares we have at the moment, which LM introduced maybe 10 years ago.
The one I do see as a problem is cross London journeys, which really need to be restricted only on the relevant bit rather than on boarding both trains. Which would be easy to do with just one additional restriction code which only restricted boarding at a London terminal.
Super Off Peaks on the south WCML are useful to only a very limited number of people. I think removing them and reducing the Off Peak in price a bit (as is the plan I believe) is the right move overall. And if the evening is only Anytime out of London as it seems it is, then that seems reasonable too, steering people away from busier trains. I always had mixed views on the three-step fares we have at the moment, which LM introduced maybe 10 years ago.
The one I do see as a problem is cross London journeys, which really need to be restricted only on the relevant bit rather than on boarding both trains. Which would be easy to do with just one additional restriction code which only restricted boarding at a London terminal.
The approach has generally been to reduce the number of routes involving other TOCs, specifically Avanti West Coast and East Midlands Railway. If only they'd do single fare pricing it wouldn't matter, though, as you could buy a single via your preferred route in each direction. Some of the issues it causes are because only LNER (and soon the South East commuter TOCs) are doing it.
Simplification removes those bargains, making "canny" users pay less. But I'd rather a simpler system where everyone pays fairly and a degree isn't needed to understand the system.
Those who find it too complicated to understand the concept of a cheaper fare at weekends, evenings or other less busy times, have the option to buy Anytime tickets if they want the simplicity that entails. That does not mean everyone should be forced to pay more.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
I’ve been warning people on this forum for years that this is what would happen.
I’m not against the rollout of contactless over a wider area but I am against fares increases via the back door, which is what this will be.
Sadly, when it launches it’ll be lauded as a simplification, what passengers want etc. There will be no mention of good value fares that have been withdrawn.
Indeed. The people who call for the abolishment of good value fares tend not to be average users but tend to be people with well-paid work-from-home jobs who make unaverage journeys, on the basis that fares need to be simple and more expensive for the benefit of other people.
Those who find it too complicated to understand the concept of a cheaper fare at weekends, evenings or other less busy times, have the option to buy Anytime tickets if they want the simplicity that entails. That does not mean everyone should be forced to pay more.
That is in essence an "idiot tax", and I'm strongly opposed to such approaches. The railway should be simple to use for everyone, not just people who can understand complex fare structures.
Yes, that means people who save money by scouring for good value tickets will lose. As I said, it's acceptable collateral damage to make the railway and its fare structure simple and accessible for all users.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Indeed. The people who call for the abolishment of good value fares tend not to be average users but tend to be people with well-paid work-from-home jobs who make unaverage journeys, on the basis that fares need to be simple and more expensive for the benefit of other people.
This change is near enough cost-neutral for me. Slight increase on a London work day trip, decrease on some other trips, most notably when spending more than one day away.
There's nothing "unaverage" about a peak day return to London or a Saturday leisure day trip. They are by far the two largest use-cases for the south WCML local services outside of those on season tickets who are not affected either way by this. The former has increased very slightly in price, the latter is about two quid cheaper from Bletchley. Sundays and evenings have gone up about a fiver, to be fair to you, but these are less common use-cases than the ones that have gone down - clearly demonstrated by the existence of the Super Off Peaks to start with!
The people who call for the abolishment of good value fares tend not to be average users but tend to be people with well-paid work-from-home jobs who make unaverage journeys, on the basis that fares need to be simple and more expensive for the benefit of other people.
That is in essence an "idiot tax", and I'm strongly opposed to such approaches. The railway should be simple to use for everyone, not just people who can understand complex fare structures.
Having Anytime, Peak and Super Off Peak isn't really "complex" but if you are arguing against that, the inevitable result is that fares will rise.
It tends to be big businesses that opt for more flexibility than they need, making people pay for a more expensive tier (e.g. Off Peak instead of Super Off Peak) is more likely to result in deterring people on tighter budgets from travelling by train.
Yes, that means people who save money by scouring for good value tickets will lose. As I said, it's acceptable collateral damage to make the railway and its fare structure simple and accessible for all users.
Do you have any evidence that more people use the train when the fares structures are simple?
Have the introduction of fares such as Super Off Peak resulted in a reduction in people travelling, due to a loss of accessibility (e.g. cheap weekend tickets on GTR, cheap evening tickets in the West Midlands etc)?
This change is near enough cost-neutral for me. Slight increase on a London work day trip, decrease on some other trips, most notably when spending more than one day away.
There's nothing "unaverage" about a peak day return to London or a Saturday leisure day trip. They are by far the two largest use-cases for the south WCML local services outside of those on season tickets who are not affected either way by this. The former has increased very slightly in price, the latter is about two quid cheaper from Bletchley. Sundays and evenings have gone up about a fiver, to be fair to you, but these are less common use-cases than the ones that have gone down - clearly demonstrated by the existence of the Super Off Peaks to start with!
While you may not see an increase in the cost of a day return on a Saturday, the abolishment elsewhere of Super Off Peak products would result in an increase for others.
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Just observation of the sort of arguments we usually get (and indeed are happening in this thread) which attempt to justify the cost of a same-day return at the weekend, on the basis of 'simplicity' being more important.
If you ask the people who are on tight budgets if they want the cheaper fares to be abolished, for the sake of simplicity, I doubt they would say yes.
If you ask people who choose not to travel by train why they go by car, the usual answer is the high cost of fares more than anything else (assuming that there are viable services operating).
Much of the focus of the Rail Review so far has rightly been on existing passengers. Meeting their needs and ensuring they are at the heart of the railway is a key requirement. Over the past 20 years rail passenger journeys in Great Britain have more than doubled. Despite this, and as stated by...
www.transportfocus.org.uk
The top five reasons for not using rail at that time were: • Cost (31 per cent of respondents)
• Too much hassle/takes too much organising (18 per cent)
• Total time taken for the door-to-door-journey (18 per cent)
• Total time taken for the rail journey (15 per cent)
• Car is more convenient (10 per cent)
It doesn't break down how much hassle is deemed to be the hassle of choosing from a range of products, but even if 100% of hassle was attributable to that (which I very much doubt!) it would still be way less than cost as the primary consideration.
Putting fares up, for the sake of a "simpler" structure, is not a sensible solution.
The appearance of the changes on the south WCML are of a revenue neutral change. (The annual increase is coming in March instead of December now I believe?)
And yes, three step is complex and does confuse a lot of people - I remember trying to explain it to someone at a TVM at Bletchley (and that's without all the confusing and pointless TOC specific rubbish you get just one stop north). Really simple is what we used to have on Merseyrail - "before 0930 is peak". Though to do that in this case would require a VERY high Anytime Day Single.
Anytime and Off Peak fares may not rise by a penny, but by extending the peak period, that is an effective price rise for most people, even if there is no rise 'on paper'.
The appearance of the changes on the south WCML are of a revenue neutral change. (The annual increase is coming in March instead of December now I believe?)
Yes it sounds like your line has got off lightly, but even then, how do you know changes are actually "revenue neutral"? It's based on modelling. And if passenger numbers go up (which they really should be doing anyway) there is no easy way to know if it happened because of the changes to fares.
If you ask people if they want simpler fares, without any caveats, they will always say yes. If you ask if they want to pay more, then it's a no.
And yes, three step is complex and does confuse a lot of people - I remember trying to explain it to someone at a TVM at Bletchley (and that's without all the confusing and pointless TOC specific rubbish you get just one stop north).
Really simple is what we used to have on Merseyrail - "before 0930 is peak". Though to do that in this case would require a VERY high Anytime Day Single.
Yep by all means do that. It means more splitting is required to bring the cost down, typically after the first station which is called at, after 0930. But some people would say that is too complex. Everyone has their own idea of "simple".
Anytime and Off Peak fares may not rise by a penny, but by extending the peak period, that is an effective price rise for most people, even if there is no rise 'on paper'.
Evening peak restrictions away from London are not an effective price rise for "most people" or even close to it. It's a price rise for people doing midweek day trips who can't adjust their travel times to either return before 1600 or after 1900, which from my experience is going to be, other than during half term, hardly anybody.
Unlike Northern's setup, they don't even hit people doing evening trips into London.
The majority of those travelling on evening peak timed trains are obvious business travellers and commuters, you can tell by looking at them, they're wearing business clothing and carrying what look like laptop bags. Leisure travellers in the SE avoid the evening peak because it's grim, even if the price isn't higher.
We've had evening Off Peak restrictions on the south WCML before, and apart from a bit of confusion when they came in they've not been a huge issue.
Yep by all means do that. It means more splitting is required to bring the cost down, typically after the first station which is called at, after 0930. But some people would say that is too complex. Everyone has their own idea of "simple".
Evening peak restrictions away from London are not an effective price rise for "most people" or even close to it. It's a price rise for people doing midweek day trips who can't adjust their travel times to either return before 1600 or after 1900, which from my experience is going to be, other than during half term, hardly anybody.
My main use of rail outside Zone 1-6 weekdays are leisure journeys after work or weekend journeys.
After the fare change is implemented the fare I need to pay, for a journey between Clapham Junction and Sunnymeads after work as an example, will rise from £12.70 for an off-peak day return, to £16.10 as I will need an Anytime out and Off-Peak return.
Even the Off-Peak Day Return itself, now having an evening peak restriction, has raised to £13.20, for a Saturday trip there, unlike the c2c equivalent where they have decreased in price. And the Sunday Out will be withdrawn as well.
So it's the majority of leisure trips having a price increase, the benefit going to part time commuters who can use an Anytime out, off-peak back if they stay in London for entertainment after work.
c2c has issued a press release: Rail operator c2c is pleased to announce the introduction of a new and simplified fares and ticketing model from Sunday 3 December. In preparation for the launch of contactless pay as you go across its entire rail network, c2c is introducing a new and...
www.railforums.co.uk
Single leg pricing generally means:
Abolish Off Peak, resulting in hitherto shoulder peak journeys requiring Anytime fares or
Abolish Super Off Peak (potentially including cheap fares at evenings and/or weekends and/or in the middle of the day), resulting in a price increase at those times to Off Peak
and also:
Increase the proportion of journeys which require Anytime fares and/or
Increase the cost of a return journey compared to a single in some or many cases.
What the DfT won't allow us to have is the current range of fares, which enable cheap return journeys to be made at certain times, and for cheap returns to continue to be cheap and be valid at the range of times they are currently.
Therefore any calls for single leg pricing, under the current regime, are a call for fare increases for many passengers, until/unless the current policy changes.
You've pretty much highlighted why I've been against single leg pricing from the very start. It is just going to make rail travel even more expensive, with the removal of off peak and super off peak (evening out/Sunday out - eventually) tickets.
If anything, the cost of rail transport should be more reasonably priced to encourage people to use the train more, not even more expensive.
The Government can seemingly find the money to subside the "£2 bus fare" but no money to keep rail fares reasonable.
People here like, Martyn Lewis style, finding bargains, be they loopholes or supercheap Advances or splits. Simplification removes those bargains, making "canny" users pay less.
Not sure how you think 'canny' people will pay less if bargains are removed. Unless of course, you are referring to people who reduce their amount of rail travel once the bargains are no longer available.
c2c has issued a press release: Rail operator c2c is pleased to announce the introduction of a new and simplified fares and ticketing model from Sunday 3 December. In preparation for the launch of contactless pay as you go across its entire rail network, c2c is introducing a new and...
www.railforums.co.uk
@Bletchleyite, do you think that should scraped as its not being simple if someone can get cheaper prices if they remember to book in advance and others cannot if they are simply not aware of them?
One has to know to book in advance and they have to make sure they use C2C unless they can use any booking site. If they can use any site, are C2C making things less simplified by giving the impression you can only book direct with them?
Super Off Peaks on the south WCML are useful to only a very limited number of people. I think removing them and reducing the Off Peak in price a bit (as is the plan I believe) is the right move overall.
Currently, the Off Peak Day tickets set by WMT, as is common generally, have no PM peak restrictions. In the case of WMT the PM peak was removed only four years ago im exchange for a rise of about 20%. The application of very heavy PM peak restrictions more than takes back for the 7% price cut.
Furthermore the SWR Sunday tickets are specifically valid by any train on Sundays for good commercial reasons. SWR used to apply time restrictions on Sundays on their Super Off Peak Day tickets, but removed the restrictions for simplicity and to make the service more attractive. The price rises created for Sundays will be large.
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The majority of those travelling on evening peak timed trains are obvious business travellers and commuters, you can tell by looking at them, they're wearing business clothing and carrying what look like laptop bags. Leisure travellers in the SE avoid the evening peak because it's grim, even if the price isn't higher.
I'm afraid I don't think you know what you're talking about here. The 1856 from London is going to be very poorly loaded, as it doesn't serve Watford Junction and the price cliff will be huge. For London to Bletchley, the 1923 does serve Watford Junction and will cost less than half as much (£23.90 for the former vs £10.50 for the latter). What do you think is going to happen?
And before you make another of your ideas regarding moving the Watford Junction stops around or making them pick up only, please remember that these are simply not realistic. Nor should they be, as they're the tail wagging the dog.
The majority of those travelling on evening peak timed trains are obvious business travellers and commuters, you can tell by looking at them, they're wearing business clothing and carrying what look like laptop bags. Leisure travellers in the SE avoid the evening peak because it's grim, even if the price isn't higher.
Just because a majority of people travelling in the evening peak are commuters, doesn't mean that a huge peak restriction in the evening won't be a complication and a barrier to leisure travellers.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
c2c has issued a press release: Rail operator c2c is pleased to announce the introduction of a new and simplified fares and ticketing model from Sunday 3 December. In preparation for the launch of contactless pay as you go across its entire rail network, c2c is introducing a new and...
www.railforums.co.uk
@Bletchleyite, do you think that should scraped as its not being simple if someone can get cheaper prices if they remember to book in advance and others cannot if they are simply not aware of them?
One has to know to book in advance and they have to make sure they use C2C unless they can use any booking site. If they can use any site, are C2C making things less simplified by giving the impression you can only book direct with them?
The cost of the £2 bus fare subsidy is a fraction compared to the subsidies paid to the railway, with the current fares, let alone more money to make rail fares 'reasonable', whatever that may mean.
I'm afraid I don't think you know what you're talking about here. The 1856 from London is going to be very poorly loaded, as it doesn't serve Watford Junction and the price cliff will be huge.
That's a Birmingham service. You're correct in saying my view is that these services shouldn't be crammed full of Watford passengers. And as a result of this change this one won't be, and will thus be attractive to people going to MKC and beyond, whose fares are not (presently*) affected by this.
The 1909 MKC stopper may get busy with Watford passengers, yes, but I don't recall that presently being a super-busy one. So as long as they don't run it as a 4 car it'll be fine; perhaps it'll be the one to make up to 12. In a few years it'll be 10.730 anyway.
So I see your general point but for these specific two trains I don't agree that there'll be a problem.
* MKC will be in phase 2, but beyond won't, and this train will carry a LOT of passengers beyond MKC.
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Just because a majority of people travelling in the evening peak are commuters, doesn't mean that a huge peak restriction in the evening won't be a complication and a barrier to leisure travellers.
Outside of school holidays, there isn't that much short distance weekday leisure travel. The MKC stoppers are VERY quiet during the day on weekdays (unlike the Birminghams and Crewes). Evenings out to London (which probably constitutes most weekday leisure travel) aren't affected as the evening restriction is only from London, unlike in Northernland where it's both ways (which I agree is bad).
School holiday trips are a bit of a problem here I'd agree, but there are options - a half term special offer could be put in, for instance, for paper tickets, like LM used to do with that "getaway" type rover ticket.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
One has to know to book in advance and they have to make sure they use C2C unless they can use any booking site. If they can use any site, are C2C making things less simplified by giving the impression you can only book direct with them?
I don't think Advances should exist at all for journeys within the Project Oval area. They add confusion, offer a poor discount on what are relatively cheap fares anyway, they are used by relatively few people, and overall offer basically no benefit at all other than for bargain hunters, who aren't the priority at all, much as some here won't like that.
That's a Birmingham service. You're correct in saying my view is that these services shouldn't be crammed full of Watford passengers. And as a result of this change this one won't be, and will thus be attractive to people going to MKC and beyond, whose fares are not (presently*) affected by this.
I don't think Advances should exist at all for journeys within the Project Oval area. They add confusion, offer a poor discount on what are relatively cheap fares anyway, they are used by relatively few people, and overall offer basically no benefit at all other than for bargain hunters, who aren't the priority at all, much as some here won't like that.
Yep people on a tight budget who are otherwise at risk being lost to rail aren't a priority; it's better for them to go by car, and just rely on income from people who have no real choice but to pay the high fares.
And of course, it's simple if savvy people buy Advances for a longer journey, and finish short
At the end of the day, there is only one way to get a truly simple fare structure that is also fair, affordable for everyone, and does not deter anyone from travelling by train, but that is not what we are going to get, because it would require more investment/funding, which is not going to be forthcoming in the forseeable future.
So, we're left to argue over whether or not changes, which predominantly appear to affect those passengers who are on the tightest of budgets and are at most risk of being lost to rail (which I personally think is wrong, but others are entitled to disagree), are positive or negative overall; there is no 'correct' answer to that, and we'll just have to agree to disagree!
offering 40% off the standard Off-Peak Return fare – by buying Online advance tickets direct from c2c three or more days before travel.
One has to know to book in advance and they have to make sure they use C2C unless they can use any booking site. If they can use any site, are C2C making things less simplified by giving the impression you can only book direct with them?
That phrase by c2c is poorly worded - the discounted tickets are Off-Peak Day Returns (including Railcard-discounted issues) purchased in advance through their website/app only, not Advance tickets themselves. Furthermore, the discount is limited to journeys within the c2c network (so those paying for Travelcards or cross-London journeys do not benefit), but you can board any valid service on the day you specify.
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