getting rid of return tickets

[Bletchleyite]

You've misunderstood. The point is that the price for the 1856 is over double to Bletchley, and about double to Leighton Buzzard.

So? The vast majority of people on a Birmingham semifast are not travelling to either of those two stations. And of the ones that are, on a weekday, most of them will just be using Anytime Day Returns or Travelcards on expenses, or are on season tickets, neither of which are affected by any of this.

I've largely stopped using them in favour of the stoppers because they're rammed full of people from the West Midlands on their supercheap tickets.

The 1913 was a problem when the evening restrictions existed before but only because it was a 4 car. Once they managed to extend it to 8 it ceased being a problem.

 

[Starmill]

That's a Birmingham service. You're correct in saying my view is that these services shouldn't be crammed full of Watford passengers.

The 1923 is too. And it will be "crammed full" of Watford Junction, Leighton Buzzard and Bletchley passengers.

Perhaps we make the 1923 fast to Wolverton, to spread capacity, so people going to Northampton aren't crammed full of Bletchley passengers, those from London to Leighton Buzzard and Bletchley can go on... a rail replacement bus?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2023 ==

So? The vast majority of people on a Birmingham semifast are not travelling to either of those two stations.

Sorry you haven't got a clue what you're talking about here.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2023 ==

I've largely stopped using them in favour of the stoppers because they're rammed full of people from the West Midlands on their supercheap tickets.

Great news for everyone else using them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 1923 is too. And it will be "crammed full" of Watford Junction, Leighton Buzzard and Bletchley passengers.

It won't be crammed full of Watford Junction passengers because they'll take the 1906, which is the first unrestricted train. They aren't going to somehow hang back another 15 minutes.

There aren't enough Bletchley/Leighton pax doing leisure trips to London on weekdays to cram anything full.

This situation has existed before - the three step thing is only a few years old. We can therefore observe what it did, and in my experience the *only* thing it did was to make the 4-car 1913 too busy, but extending it to 8 solved the problem. Stick 12 on (by dropping the last peak one to 4 if it's going to be that quiet, then drop it off at NMP and put it back in where you want) and there'll be no problem at all.

Perhaps we make the 1923 fast to Wolverton, to spread capacity, so people going to Northampton aren't crammed ull of Bletchley passengers, those from London to Leighton Buzzard and Bletchley can go on... a rail replacement bus?

That's just beyond hyperbolic.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2023 ==

Sorry you haven't got a clue what you're talking about here.

How often do you travel between Bletchley and Euston at peak/shoulder peak times, given that your location is stated as Bolton?

 

[Starmill]

That's just beyond hyperbolic.

It's called a joke

How often do you travel between Bletchley and Euston at peak/shoulder peak times, given that your location is stated as Bolton?

More frequently than you given you use the stoppers and not the fast according to your previous posts. I didn't base it on that anyway, I based it on the origin destination matrix, but you're clearly not going to listen so...

This situation has existed before - the three step thing is only a few years old. We can therefore observe what it did, and in my experience the *only* thing it did was to make the 4-car 1913 too busy, but extending it to 8 solved the problem. Stick 12 on (by dropping the last peak one to 4 if it's going to be that quiet, then drop it off at NMP and put it back in where you want) and there'll be no problem at all.

No it isn't. Price wasn't over double at one train's gap previously.

It won't be crammed full of Watford Junction passengers because they'll take the 1906, which is the first unrestricted train. They aren't going to somehow hang back another 15 minutes.

Again they definitely will because that one is already even more overcrowded and because it takes slightly longer. It's only 9 mins apart at Watford Junction.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2023 ==

There aren't enough Bletchley/Leighton pax doing leisure trips to London on weekdays to cram anything full.

I think you're a couple of years out of date. Try to get this service on a Tuesday, or Thursday evening in February and see what it's like.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No it isn't. Price wasn't over double at one train's gap previously.

It was actually worse than that. Before the three-step singles were asymmetric, which meant pairing singles didn't save you a lot of money. Thus if you wanted to go into London at lunchtime and return in the evening peak you'd get stung for an Anytime Day Return despite only going peak in one direction. Now with single-fare pricing you can mix and match as appropriate, this will lessen, not accentuate, the effect.

Again they definitely will because that one is already even more overcrowded and because it takes slightly longer. It's only 9 mins apart at Watford Junction.

Then it'll be spread between the two. Most people take the first train out.

Seriously, the 1906 and 1923 at 12-car and there will be no problem at all, most likely there'll be empty seats in the front coach. The 1906 will be 10.730 in time anyway.

And don't forget that as I said a lot of Leighton/Bletchley passengers on weekdays are on seasons, and this is unlikely to change. They are totally unaffected by this. If I recall the break even point for a monthly is about 3 days. Outside of school holidays (for which, as I said, some sort of special offer fares may be appropriate) there aren't huge swathes of leisure passengers from stations south of MKC travelling home in the evening peaks, because most people are at work.

 

[Starmill]

It was actually worse than that. Before the three-step singles were asymmetric, which meant pairing singles didn't save you a lot of money. Thus if you wanted to go into London at lunchtime and return in the evening peak you'd get stung for an Anytime Day Return despite only going peak in one direction. Now with single-fare pricing you can mix and match as appropriate, this will lessen, not accentuate, the effect.

I'm sorry but I'm not going to look the fares up from 2018 if you're not, but this is still mistaken because the discount wasn't aa big as 56% for one train and because more capacity was available then.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm sorry but I'm not going to look the fares up from 2018 if you're not, but this is still mistaken because the discount wasn't aa big as 56% for one train and because more capacity was available then.

More capacity wasn't available then. The 1913, the train which was the biggest problem, was four car.

 

[87015]

Even LNR show the 1909 and 1923 as purple on their how busy is the trains matrix, which is 'leaves people behind' TWTh, for reference. Loads of the stoppers won't be 10-730 as they cycle through Plat 10 at Euston throughout both peaks, where they won't fit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even LNR show the 1909 and 1923 as purple on their how busy is the trains matrix, which is 'leaves people behind' TWTh, for reference. Loads of the stoppers won't be 10-730 as they cycle through Plat 10 at Euston throughout both peaks, where they won't fit.

Purple isn't "leaves people behind". It's "standing expected".

The only time I've ever seen a weekday evening LNR train leave people behind is when it's a 4-car or when there's been a cancellation, or when they're standing looking gormless at packed coaches by the platform entrance and too bone-idle to walk to the front or back (the back is the quietest bit of an 8 car in 8 or 11, nobody thinks to go down the ramp and back on themselves).

They will need to swap the platforming when the 730s take over the slows and put the 8 car Birminghams in 10 and the slows into 8/11, because they won't be using 5s in the peaks, that simply won't work.

 

[87015]

Purple isn't "leaves people behind". It's "standing expected".

The only time I've ever seen a weekday evening LNR train leave people behind is when it's a 4-car or when there's been a cancellation.

They will need to swap the platforming when the 730s take over the Trings and put the 8 car Birminghams in 10 and the Trings into 8/11, because they won't be using 5s in the peaks, that simply won't work.

I'm out, no point anyone else having an opinion regardless of daily use evidently.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm out, no point anyone else having an opinion regardless of daily use evidently.

I'm not sure that daily use gives you the experience to tell you that it isn't possible to use a platform other than 10 for the slows. The platforming will certainly change when the 5-car 730s take over the Tring/MKC services.

And I have never been unable to board an evening peak LNR train outside of disruption that wasn't 4-car. Ever. And I've been using the route for twenty years. I've chosen not to board some because I'd have to stand, but never been unable to board. Indeed, my record of getting a seat is very close to 100%.

 

[infobleep]

That phrase by c2c is poorly worded - the discounted tickets are Off-Peak Day Returns (including Railcard-discounted issues) purchased in advance through their website/app only, not Advance tickets themselves. Furthermore, the discount is limited to journeys within the c2c network (so those paying for Travelcards or cross-London journeys do not benefit), but you can board any valid service on the day you specify.

But why the 3 days?

 

[Edvid]

To be honest, I have no idea.

 

[yorksrob]

Outside of school holidays, there isn't that much short distance weekday leisure travel. The MKC stoppers are VERY quiet during the day on weekdays (unlike the Birminghams and Crewes). Evenings out to London (which probably constitutes most weekday leisure travel) aren't affected as the evening restriction is only from London, unlike in Northernland where it's both ways (which I agree is bad).

School holiday trips are a bit of a problem here I'd agree, but there are options - a half term special offer could be put in, for instance, for paper tickets, like LM used to do with that "getaway" type rover ticket.

It's not really good enough to say "oh well, it doesn't matter that we're making people's journeys more complicated, not that many leisure travellers will be affected outside of the school holidays" (is it acceptable to inconvenience lots of people during the school holidays ?)

We're told by the Government that they want to simplify fares, yet introducing an evening peak fare is doing the opposite.

 

[Mark J]

Super Off Peaks on the south WCML are useful to only a very limited number of people. I think removing them and reducing the Off Peak in price a bit (as is the plan I believe) is the right move overall.

You may not find super off peak a useful ticket, however many out there do - including myself.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not really good enough to say "oh well, it doesn't matter that we're making people's journeys more complicated, not that many leisure travellers will be affected outside of the school holidays" (is it acceptable to inconvenience lots of people during the school holidays ?)

We're told by the Government that they want to simplify fares, yet introducing an evening peak fare is doing the opposite.

There's nothing complicated about that aspect of it, it's very easy to understand and indeed was in place until the three step change a few years back.

You may not find super off peak a useful ticket, however many out there do - including myself.

I'm not saying nobody does (I in fact used one* last night), I'm just saying it isn't applicable to most people. Which is the point of it - it's a low headline fare with limited applicability due to the tiny validity window on weekdays and Saturdays.

* A £13 (capped NSE discount) Super Off Peak Day Single back to Bletchley, which would, from the change, have cost me just £10.50 (and because that's below the NSE cap I'd just have tapped in and out, not having to faff about trying to buy it while simultaneously rushing for the train). Not every present buyer of Super Off Peak tickets is disadvantaged...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2023 ==

As an aside on all this I note Chiltern are claiming returns will be abolished per LNER, but this isn't true, they'll still exist but at twice the singles...a bit poor that the social media teams haven't been properly briefed!

 

[Mark J]

I'm not saying nobody does, I'm just saying it isn't applicable to most people. Which is the point of it - it's a low headline fare with limited applicability due to the tiny validity window on weekdays and Saturdays.

On SWR 'Super off peak' are essentially the 'Evening Out' and 'Sunday Out' tickets.

'Evening out' being valid after Noon, Monday to Saturday.

'Sunday Out' at any time on a Sunday.

Saturday Evening Out and Sunday Out tickets can be cheaper than local £2 bus fares to nearby destinations - when a railcard is also used.

Earley to Bracknell (for example) is just £2.95 return on Saturday afternoons and Sunday. The return bus fare is £4.

 

[yorksrob]

There's nothing complicated about that aspect of it, it's very easy to understand and indeed was in place until the three step change a few years back.

Before the change, you didn't have to worry about when you caught the train back. Now you will

You should recognise that this is the fleecification of the fares system, not simplification

 

[Bletchleyite]

Before the change, you didn't have to worry about when you caught the train back. Now you will

Users of Super Off Peaks did.

You should recognise that this is the fleecification of the fares system, not simplification

Hardly. You can't do single fare pricing revenue neutrally without either evening restrictions or whacking the Anytime Day Single up by about a third on the assumption that nobody will ever buy one both ways. And single fare pricing is a requirement of the TfL contactless system.

 

[yorksrob]

Users of Super Off Peaks did.



Hardly. You can't do single fare pricing revenue neutrally without either evening restrictions or whacking the Anytime Day Single up by about a third on the assumption that nobody will ever buy one both ways. And single fare pricing is a requirement of the TfL contactless system.

Users of ordinary cheap day returns (I suspect the vast majority of leisure travellers in the South East area) didn't.

If they're not prepared to change anything without adding unnecessary complications in people's plans, they shouldn't bother at all and wait until there's someone else in charge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Users of ordinary cheap day returns (I suspect the vast majority of leisure travellers in the South East area) didn't.

The south WCML does not have "ordinary cheap day returns". It has a three step system of slightly overpriced Off Peak and low priced but very heavily restricted Super Off Peak. There isn't a standard default, you have to check which is applicable to any given trip.

 

[yorksrob]

The south WCML does not have "ordinary cheap day returns". It has a three step system of slightly overpriced Off Peak and low priced but very heavily restricted Super Off Peak. There isn't a standard default, you have to check which is applicable to any given trip.

That's quite different from a lot of the NSE area, including in my experience, most of the Southern Region

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The south WCML does not have "ordinary cheap day returns".

Suppose it depends on how you define "the south WCML". Off Peak Day returns (CDRs) certainly seem to be available from Milton Keynes Central / Bletchley. Also from Long Buckby / Northampton and Wolverton on the Northampton loop. But not from Rugby, which is more than 80 miles out from Euston.

 

[jon81uk]

On SWR 'Super off peak' are essentially the 'Evening Out' and 'Sunday Out' tickets.

'Evening out' being valid after Noon, Monday to Saturday.

'Sunday Out' at any time on a Sunday.

Saturday Evening Out and Sunday Out tickets can be cheaper than local £2 bus fares to nearby destinations - when a railcard is also used.

Earley to Bracknell (for example) is just £2.95 return on Saturday afternoons and Sunday. The return bus fare is £4.

Don't think you can really compare the cost with a railcard when that involves a £30 upfront commitment, therefore for many people the train fare won't be as low as you state.

 

[greyman42]

You may not find super off peak a useful ticket, however many out there do - including myself.

I used super off peak returns on the ECML and they were great value with lots of availability.

 

[miklcct]

I used super off peak returns on the ECML and they were great value with lots of availability.

I am a regular user of super off-peak day returns on the Thameslink route. A such ticket between West Hampstead Stations and Brighton undercuts a ticket between London and Brighton where there is no interavailable super off-peak day return, and it provides the maximum flexibility of which London terminals one can use as it comes with a Maltese Cross, including Victoria, Blackfriars, London Bridge, St Pancras, and all of the three West Hampstead stations on the Jubilee, Thameslink and Overground can be used.

It will be sad to see this good value ticket goes once Brighton gets contactless in phase 2.

 

[David Goddard]

Disturbed by the loss of flexibility which has come about following the removal of longer distance (ie not "Day" returns on this route. With the return ticket, the outward leg was valid for two (OP) or five (Anytime) days, and the return within a month, so allowing break(s) of journey en-route, as long as each leg was completed in those times, which also provided flexibility if the customer's plans changed at short notice (such as take a week in Scotland but now need to call in on Granny in York for a few days on the way home). With singles, this time period is slashed to a much shorter period and this flexibility is lost, so multiple tickets (again set to the days shown) would be required, and if plans change then further purchases would be needed, with the appropriate exchange fees levied as well.

 

[miklcct]

Disturbed by the loss of flexibility which has come about following the removal of longer distance (ie not "Day" returns on this route. With the return ticket, the outward leg was valid for two (OP) or five (Anytime) days, and the return within a month, so allowing break(s) of journey en-route, as long as each leg was completed in those times, which also provided flexibility if the customer's plans changed at short notice (such as take a week in Scotland but now need to call in on Granny in York for a few days on the way home). With singles, this time period is slashed to a much shorter period and this flexibility is lost, so multiple tickets (again set to the days shown) would be required, and if plans change then further purchases would be needed, with the appropriate exchange fees levied as well.

Under single leg pricing the intention is to always buy the ticket just before travel (with the exception of Advance tickets).