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Glasgow to Edinburgh 1960 to present

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Justin Smith

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I have been doing a bit of research on Edinburgh to Glasgow times since dieselisation, but cannot find a TT for the 1960 to 1971 (Class 126 DMUs), can anyone fill in the blank ? And/or check my stats ?

1958 to 1972 - Class 126 DMUs (2 power cars to one trailer, 1200hp) - 70mph max - fastest time ????
1975 to 1980 - 2 x Class 27s + 6 MkIIs - 90mph max - 45 to 47 mins with 2 stops (my 1975 TT also lists some non stops in 43 min ! )
1980 to 1990 - Class 47 + 6 MkIIIs + 1 MkII DVT - 100mph max - 48min with 3 stops (1987 TT)
1990 to 2000 - Class 158s - 90mph max - 50 min with 3 stops (1998 TT)
2000 to 2018 - Class 170s - 100mph max - 49 min with 3 stops (2018 TT)
2018 on - Class 385s (elec) - 100mph max - 48 min with 5 stops (current Scotrail TT pdf Online)

A few observations, it hasn't got much faster has it, albeit there is now far more services that make more calls and still do it in 48 min.
I was able to do this research fairly quickly using my old TTs, how will future historians do the same when it's all (temporary) Online ?
What were the times in the era steam ?
 
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Cheshire Scot

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1958 to 1972 - Class 126 DMUs (2 power cars to one trailer, 1200hp) - 70mph max - fastest time ????
1975 to 1980 - 2 x Class 27s + 6 MkIIs - 90mph max - 45 to 47 mins with 2 stops (my 1975 TT also lists some non stops in 45 min ! )

I recall the standard DMU timing circa 1970 was 55 mins calling Falkirk High and Haymarket on the xx.00 from either end, whilst the xx.30 ran via Falkirk Grahamston and also called Lenzie and Croy and Polmont and Linlithgow taking around 70 mins. In earlier years there may have been some calls at stations which subsequently closed such as Dullater and Manuel.

My recollection is initially 2x27 timing was 43 mins with Haymarket only (xx.00 from either end), 45 mins with Falkirk High added (xx.30) with some added time for extra peak stops - an hourly Edinburgh to Stirling was introduced to serve Linlithgow Polmont and Grahamston connecting with a new Grahamston to Glasgow to serve Croy and Lenzie.

The initial timetable had no recovery time (Engineering allowance / 'box' time - for TSRs) but this was added fairly quickly (the initial timings had been frequently bettered in service).

I have no knowledge of steam timings but stops were added (and more frequent stops) in the cl170 and 385 eras.
 
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hexagon789

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I have been doing a bit of research on Edinburgh to Glasgow times since dieselisation, but cannot find a TT for the 1960 to 1971 (Class 126 DMUs), can anyone fill in the blank ? And/or check my stats ?

1958 to 1972 - Class 126 DMUs (2 power cars to one trailer, 1200hp) - 70mph max - fastest time ????
1975 to 1980 - 2 x Class 27s + 6 MkIIs - 90mph max - 45 to 47 mins with 2 stops (my 1975 TT also lists some non stops in 45 min ! )
1980 to 1990 - Class 47 + 6 MkIIIs + 1 MkII DVT - 100mph max - 48min with 3 stops (1987 TT)
1990 to 2000 - Class 158s - 90mph max - 50 min with 3 stops (1998 TT)
2000 to 2018 - Class 170s - 100mph max - 49 min with 3 stops (2018 TT)
2018 on - Class 385s (elec) - 100mph max - 48 min with 5 stops (current Scotrail TT pdf Online)

A few observations, it hasn't got much faster has it, albeit there is now far more services that make more calls and still do it in 48 min.
I was able to do this research fairly quickly using my old TTs, how will future historians do the same when it's all (temporary) Online ?
What were the times in the era steam ?
1956 to 1971 was the Swindon 79xxx series InterCity DMUs, these did not survive long enough to gain TOPS Class numbers.

Original service pattern was hourly, with some infils by trains from England such as the Queen of Scots.

Journey time was originally one hour mostly, by the early 1960s it was usually 1 or two stops and 55-60 mins, by the late-1960s a half-hourly pattern as outlined by Cheshire Scot was established. Linespeed was 75mph, but the 79xxx were nominal 70mph max.

1971-1980 was the 27s push-pull on a rake of six specially equipped Mk2Z. These had their vacuum tread brakes replaced with a two-stage air disc brake system and also through 27-way multicore cabling and through Blue Star control air pipes.

90mph running was authorised, the line being resignalled to permit this. Schedules were cut to 43 mins Haymarket only or 45 Falkirk and Haymarket.

Reliability issues meant that soon 2 and later 4 mins recovery time was added.

From 1979 into 1980, the 47/7 and Mk3 push-pull sets with converted Mk2F DBSO driving trailers were introduced.

These were originally permitted 95mph max, but were still run on 90mph Class 27 schedules at 47-49 mins.

After reliability had been proved, the schedules were cut in May 1982 to 44 (working time 43.5)- 47 mins.

100mph running was officially authorised in May 1984, with the Schedules tightened to the fastest ever 42 mins Haymarket only or 45 mins with Falkirk High stop.

In May 1985, it was decided the business case for calling at Falkirk twice an hour was more logical than skipping it with every second train. So a regular 45 min journey with both trains calling Falkirk High and Haymarket was established.

In May 1986, it was decided to call alternate trains additionally at Polmont or Linlithgow, journey time now 48 mins.

This pattern lasted into 158 days.

In 1990, the 158s were due to arrive but delays saw redeployed 156 units cover until late in the year, the 47/7 push-pulls having been phased out in April/May.

Journey time was now 50 mins, and that lasted until the 170s were introduced in 1999 and the 15 min frequency established.

Winter 1999 timetable, 15 min frequency with 170s introduced, original pattern was all trains calling Falkirk and Haymarket, two trains additionally at Linlithgow and one each additionally at Croy or Polmont. Journey time 48 mins.

At some point in the early 2000s, it briefly reverted to half-hourly due to training issues compounded by strikes.

From Winter 2002 though it was back to every 15 mins, but with the now familiar pattern of Croy, Falkirk, Haymarket or Falkirk, Polmont, Linlithgow, Haymarket as stops.

Then we get into electrification and 385 territory.

The steam era was a bit slower, though the LNER made a special point of making up specific trainsets for the captive services on the route, it was considered an important route even then. There wasn't a set pattern, you might have called it approximately hourly but it wasn't at set departure mins every hour. Journey time was 58-77 mins depending on stops (1939 LNER timetable).
 

RT4038

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I recall the standard DMU timing circa 1970 was 55 mins calling Falkirk High and Haymarket on the xx.00 from either end, whilst the xx.30 ran via Falkirk Grahamston and also called Lenzie and Croy and Polmont and Linlithgow taking around 70 mins. In earlier years there may have been some calls at stations which subsequently closed such as Dullater and Manuel.

My recollection is initially 2x27 timing was 43 mins with Haymarket only (xx.00 from either end), 45 mins with Falkirk High added (xx.30) with some added time for extra peak stops - an hourly Edinburgh to Stirling was introduced to serve Linlithgow Polmont and Grahamston connecting with a new Grahamston to Glasgow to serve Croy and Lenzie.

The initial timetable had no recovery time (Engineering allowance / 'box' time - for TSRs) but this was added fairly quickly (the initial timings had been frequently bettered in service).

I have no knowledge of steam timings but stops were added (and more frequent stops) in the cl170 and 385 eras.
In 1962/3 Winter timetable, the Diesel sets were timed at 55min (only 1 stop at Haymarket) [only 1 or 2 trains per day] or 60 mins with two stops (Haymarket and either Falkirk High or Polmont)
 

Ken H

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Here is a page from the 78/79 BRTT. It would have been the Cl 27 push pulls then.Page_1191.jpg
 

hexagon789

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Was the 0435 Edinburgh to Glasgow Queen Street (non stop) the West Highland line sleeper?
The 1978-9 PTM shows it as being formed NAV ex-Liverpool St, BFK+TSO. The BFK/TSO go forward from Queen Street on the 1255 to Oban.
 

Taunton

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The 2x27 was introduced in May 1971. The 79xxx dmus which had run it since the late 1950s were withdrawn on that day and never ran again, although they were still around quite a while later - I saw them dumped in the Up sidings at Polmadie, covered in snow, going to a New Years 1974 party.

The timings in that timetable extract above have been eased out - in the early 1970s it was 39 minutes nonstop Queen Street to Haymarket nonstop, and 41 minutes with the Falkirk High stop, then another 4 minutes on to Waverley. My guess is the public times have been eased out by the late 1970s, but the actual running (and potentially the working timetables) stayed the same.

I did a few notes on the line in the early 1970s a while ago, here :

 

Cheshire Scot

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Was the 0435 Edinburgh to Glasgow Queen Street (non stop) the West Highland line sleeper?
Yes, but
The 1978-9 PTM shows it as being formed NAV ex-Liverpool St, BFK+TSO. The BFK/TSO go forward from Queen Street on the 1255 to Oban.
By '78 the FW sleeper was coming from Euston (via Mossend) (but the 04.35 would still be required to run providing connections both from ECML to Glasgow and from Edinburgh to Fort William).

The NAV from Liverpool St would be a surviving vehicle from the one time 17.12 Colchester to Glasgow Queen St - a couple of coaches and quite a lot of vans although most of the vans were detached in Edinburgh where it attached the FW portion to go through to Queen St although for some years the FW ran independently from Edinburgh to Fort William daily in the summer, and latterly only on Saturday mornings in summer when weekend strengthening meant it was formed of 6 vehicles from Kings X + one attached Edinburgh.

Once the Colchester had ceased running (at least as a passenger train (circa 71?)) the 04.35 typically had just the Fort William section plus a BSK Edinburgh to Mallaig (although not advertised as through to Mallaig) plus the odd van (such as the one from Liverpool St). As it left from a West End bay it could be quite annoying having enjoyed sole use of a compartment in the BCK on the ECML to find EDB to GLQ passengers joining that coach which was on the blocks at Waverley rather than walk up to the probably empty BSK on the front.
 
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hexagon789

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Yes, but

By '78 the FW sleeper was coming from Euston (via Mossend) (but the 04.35 would still be required to run providing connections both from ECML to Glasgow and from Edinburgh to Fort William).

The NAV from Liverpool St would be a surviving vehicle from the one time 17.12 Colchester to Glasgow Queen St - a couple of coaches and quite a lot of vans although most of the vans were detached in Edinburgh where it attached the FW portion to go through to Queen St although for some years the FW ran independently from Edinburgh to Fort William daily in the summer, and latterly only on Saturday mornings in summer when weekend strengthening meant it was formed of 6 vehicles from Kings X + one attached Edinburgh.

Once the Colchester had ceased running (at least as a passenger train (circa 71?)) the 04.35 typically had just the Fort William section plus a BSK Edinburgh to Mallaig (although not advertised as through to Mallaig) plus the odd van (such as the one from Liverpool St). As it left from a West End bay it could be quite annoying having enjoyed sole use of a compartment in the BCK on the ECML to find EDB to GLQ passengers joining that coach which was on the blocks at Waverley rather than walk up to the probably empty BSK on the front.
I had a feeling it was the sleeper path in earlier years and I'd forgotten about the previous Colchester working.

It's often quite remarkable some of the workings that used to exist.
 

Strathclyder

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The 2x27 was introduced in May 1971. The 79xxx dmus which had run it since the late 1950s were withdrawn on that day and never ran again, although they were still around quite a while later - I saw them dumped in the Up sidings at Polmadie, covered in snow, going to a New Years 1974 party.
Not a complete set granted, but didn't a couple vehicles from the former E&G sets move over to Ayrshire? I know of at least one Intermediate Driving Motor Brake Second vehicle (79088) that made such a move. Here it is at Kilwinning in June 1977 (from eastbank.org.uk).

UK1831.jpg
 

Speed43125

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Not a complete set granted, but didn't a couple vehicles from the former E&G sets move over to Ayrshire? I know of at least one Intermediate Driving Motor Brake Second vehicle (79088) that made such a move. Here it is at Kilwinning in June 1977 (from eastbank.org.uk).
According to Wikipedia, it was 4 vehicles in total.
 

Irascible

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1971-1980 was the 27s push-pull on a rake of six specially equipped Mk2Z. These had their vacuum tread brakes replaced with a two-stage air disc brake system and also through 27-way multicore cabling and through Blue Star control air pipes.

Any idea what happened to the carriage sets after replacement? seem quite handy given braking performance but obviously a bit non-standard.
 

Ken H

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Any idea what happened to the carriage sets after replacement? seem quite handy given braking performance but obviously a bit non-standard.
I think they were scrapped. They were knackered after the hard use on E&G
 

Big Jumby 74

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1971-1980 was the 27s push-pull on a rake of six specially equipped Mk2Z. These had their vacuum tread brakes replaced with a two-stage air disc brake system and also through 27-way multicore cabling and through Blue Star control air pipes.
This brings back fond memories, especially as these were my first experience of 27's North of the border. A slightly sideways question: other than exams or failures, how many days were a set pair of locos kept with the same 6 Mk 2Set, as a 'unit' effectively? Presumably they were detached from the sets for refuelling at HA?
 

Magdalia

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Yes, but

By '78 the FW sleeper was coming from Euston (via Mossend) (but the 04.35 would still be required to run providing connections both from ECML to Glasgow and from Edinburgh to Fort William).

The NAV from Liverpool St would be a surviving vehicle from the one time 17.12 Colchester to Glasgow Queen St - a couple of coaches and quite a lot of vans although most of the vans were detached in Edinburgh where it attached the FW portion to go through to Queen St although for some years the FW ran independently from Edinburgh to Fort William daily in the summer, and latterly only on Saturday mornings in summer when weekend strengthening meant it was formed of 6 vehicles from Kings X + one attached Edinburgh.

Once the Colchester had ceased running (at least as a passenger train (circa 71?)) the 04.35 typically had just the Fort William section plus a BSK Edinburgh to Mallaig (although not advertised as through to Mallaig) plus the odd van (such as the one from Liverpool St). As it left from a West End bay it could be quite annoying having enjoyed sole use of a compartment in the BCK on the ECML to find EDB to GLQ passengers joining that coach which was on the blocks at Waverley rather than walk up to the probably empty BSK on the front.
The Colchester-Glasgow ceased in May 1971, coincident with the switch from DMUs to class 27 push and pull on the Edinburgh-Glasgow service. Colchester is a garrison town and a lot of the passengers using it would have been armed forces on leave. 3S38 Liverpool Street-Edinburgh vans was the remnant of the Colchester-Glasgow, utilising the same path at least as far as Peterborough.

The Fort William sleeper switched from Kings Cross to Euston in May 1976. From Kings Cross it was a portion off an Aberdeen train. It attached to the 0600 Queen Street-Mallaig except on summer Fridays when it was a heavier train and ran as a separate train from Edinburgh, arriving at Fort William about 90 minutes earlier. More Fort Willam carriages from Kings Cross on summer Fridays meant fewer carriages in the Aberdeen portion, which was sleepers only on summer Fridays.

By moving within the train, until 1971 it used to be possible to go all the way from Colchester to Mallaig without stepping out onto the platform.
 

delt1c

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Any idea what happened to the carriage sets after replacement? seem quite handy given braking performance but obviously a bit non-standard.
Initially the coaches were transferred to the Eastern region
 

Magdalia

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Not a complete set granted, but didn't a couple vehicles from the former E&G sets move over to Ayrshire?
Motor Brake Second 79088, Motor Second 79168, and Trailer Firsts 79470 and 79479.

79470 was still in traffic in 1980, though by that time 79168 was dumped at Ayr Depot with no bogies.

Many withdrawn units survived a long time before scrapping. 7 motor cars languished at Ely for many years before being scrapped at Snailwell.
 

Cheshire Scot

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The Fort William sleeper switched from Kings Cross to Euston in May 1976. From Kings Cross it was a portion off an Aberdeen train. It attached to the 0600 Queen Street-Mallaig except on summer Fridays when it was a heavier train and ran as a separate train from Edinburgh, arriving at Fort William about 90 minutes earlier. More Fort Willam carriages from Kings Cross on summer Fridays meant fewer carriages in the Aberdeen portion, which was sleepers only on summer Fridays.
Seated passengers for Aberdeen travelled on a relief train 10 minutes ahead of the main train.

By moving within the train, until 1971 it used to be possible to go all the way from Colchester to Mallaig without stepping out onto the platform.
An interesting 'fringe benefit' -I wonder how many (if any) did!
 

Taunton

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Not a complete set granted, but didn't a couple vehicles from the former E&G sets move over to Ayrshire? I know of at least one Intermediate Driving Motor Brake Second vehicle (79088) that made such a move.
Interesting notes. I think the four vehicles that carried on in Ayrshire (for quite some years) had been there before the E&G sets were withdrawn. I believe they needed some mechanical changes, because although both types were coded White Circle for coupling, they were apparently not compatible with one another (nor either with the similar Western Region Class 120 units - quite why Swindon built three different types of controls is not apparent). There were more cars than needed for the E&G operation, and they turned up on various lesser services, generally just in a 3-car formation. These could not be made from a 6-car E&G set without shunting, for the latter were formed with two full driving cab motor cars at the ends, two with intermediate side cabs right behind, and two trailers in the middle.

There was apparently quite some civils work done in 1956 before their introduction (just like there was in 1971 before the 2x27 push-pull started), to allow a speeding-up, but I've never seen details of what was done. The Railcar site has an extended description of the 79xxx cars operation here :


... where we find, from 1957 : "an innovation was the service of afternoon tea in the first and second class accommodation throughout the train. Trays with tea, toast, toasted tea cakes, bread & butter, cakes and pastries were taken to passengers by an attendant."

I can't quite see that happening on the afternoon emus nowadays - can you ?!
 
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hexagon789

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According to Wikipedia, it was 4 vehicles in total.
Sounds about right.

Any idea what happened to the carriage sets after replacement? seem quite handy given braking performance but obviously a bit non-standard.
One set minus BSO was kept by the Scottish Region as spare and used with a DBSO as required, it was used initially as an emergency spare set when the Mk3s were being introduced. From 1982 it went on a Glasgow-Perth/Dundee stopper circuit, in 1983 it was switched to Edinburgh minus the FK.

In 1984 the set, with FK again was used on the Fridays Only low-cost Edinburgh-Inverness "Jacobite" as it had no permanently booked work anymore. It remained a hot spare to the Mk3 sets at all times though.

From 1986 the TSOs were used to extend two Mk2 push-pull to six coaches when push-pull operations were expanded to Edinburgh-Aberdeen.

The other vehicles went to the ER and often turned up in Transpennine workings. They kept their air disc-brakes until withdrawn.

I think they were scrapped. They were knackered after the hard use on E&G
On the contrary, they went on to many more years of service!

Initially the coaches were transferred to the Eastern region
Bar 4 TSO and 1 FK

Motor Brake Second 79088, Motor Second 79168, and Trailer Firsts 79470 and 79479.
By then Trailer Composites when transferred, the Ayrshire batch had had all the full Firsts downgraded to compos by about 1970.





Interesting notes. I think the four vehicles that carried on in Ayrshire (for quite some years) had been there before the E&G sets were withdrawn. I believe they needed some mechanical changes, because although both types were coded White Circle for coupling, they were apparently not compatible with one another (nor either with the similar Western Region units - quite why Swindon built three different types of controls is not apparent). There were more cars than needed for the E&G operation, and they turned up on various lesser services, generally just in a 3-car formation. These could not be made from a 6-car E&G set without shunting, for the latter were formed with two full driving cab motor cars at the ends, two with intermediate side cabs right behind, and two trailers in the middle.
The 79xxx cars were designed at a time when what became Yellow Diamond was the "standard" electrical system so they had control wiring to that spec. When the Ayrshire 126 cars came along Blue Square was the current standard so they were wired to that standard.

Neither could of course multi with either if those control types as they used a unique control air system that was individual to each power car.

The two batches were modified to allow each to work together very early on, there are records of mixed sets in operation before the full Ayrshire service commenced.

One usual 3-car set was on Edinburgh Princes St-Shotts-Glasgow Central. There was at least once such diagram replaced a Class 100 Gloucester set from about 1959 after passenger complaints over the quality of rolling stock on the Shotts route!

Usually a Trailer First as no catering was provided but Trailer Buffet Firsts did appear and on occasion with catering crew. Six-car sets seem to have become more usual after a few years on the Shotts route, but formed in the traditional Power Cars sandwiching a Trailer formation rather than the E&G arrangement of two power cars each and and two trailers in the middle.

Other places the 79xxx cars visited included - Stirling, Oban on Loch Land Cruises, Dundee and the Fife Circle, though I believe only Stirling and Falkirk Grahamston ever had regularly book 79xxx workings.
 

nw1

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I have been doing a bit of research on Edinburgh to Glasgow times since dieselisation, but cannot find a TT for the 1960 to 1971 (Class 126 DMUs), can anyone fill in the blank ? And/or check my stats ?

1958 to 1972 - Class 126 DMUs (2 power cars to one trailer, 1200hp) - 70mph max - fastest time ????
1975 to 1980 - 2 x Class 27s + 6 MkIIs - 90mph max - 45 to 47 mins with 2 stops (my 1975 TT also lists some non stops in 45 min ! )
1980 to 1990 - Class 47 + 6 MkIIIs + 1 MkII DVT - 100mph max - 48min with 3 stops (1987 TT)
1990 to 2000 - Class 158s - 90mph max - 50 min with 3 stops (1998 TT)
Was it definitely 3 stops throughout this period, and the 1980s? My one and only Edinburgh-Glasgow trip was in 1993 (158 era) and recall stops at Haymarket and Falkirk High - was there another stop? I do remember the line as a whole had few small stations, so presumably little in the way of local services.
 

hexagon789

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Was it definitely 3 stops throughout this period, and the 1980s? My one and only Edinburgh-Glasgow trip was in 1993 (158 era) and recall stops at Haymarket and Falkirk High - was there another stop? I do remember the line as a whole had few small stations, so presumably little in the way of local services.
Yes, from May 1986 until September 1999 it was 3 stops -

Falkirk High and Haymarket plus one of either Polmont or Linlithgow.
 

Cheshire Scot

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I do remember the line as a whole had few small stations, so presumably little in the way of local services.
There were Edinburgh to Stirling/Dunblane, Glasgow to Stirling/Dunblane (and in some years to Perth but not sure what year (s)) and Glasgow to Falkirk Grahamston services which stopped at Linlithgow and Polmont and at Bishopbriggs, Lenzie and Cory
 

hexagon789

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There were Edinburgh to Stirling/Dunblane, Glasgow to Stirling/Dunblane (and in some years to Perth but not sure what year (s)) and Glasgow to Falkirk Grahamston services which stopped at Linlithgow and Polmont and at Bishopbriggs, Lenzie and Cory
The two-hourly Glasgow-Perth (the remnants of the previous two-hourly Glasgow-Dundee) went in May 1983 when they were re-routed to Edinburgh.

In May 1984, that was also changed and the spotty, mostly peak only Edinburgh-Perth via Fife service became the norm (there was one random 1125-ish Edinburgh-Perth returning to Glasgow QS outside the peak services via Fife and the Inverness trains via Stirling) until Sprinterisation and the re-routing of all Edinburgh-Inverness ScotRail services via Fife again.
 

Taunton

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Was it definitely 3 stops throughout this period, and the 1980s? My one and only Edinburgh-Glasgow trip was in 1993 (158 era) and recall stops at Haymarket and Falkirk High - was there another stop? I do remember the line as a whole had few small stations, so presumably little in the way of local services.
In the 1970s 27x2 push-pull era, the trains left either end at 00 and 30 past the hour, being followed soon after by a Met-Cam local which did the intermediate work, then turned off from both directions halfway at Falkirk, heading for Stirling etc, just before being caught up by the next express. Normally this worked very well. Arriving into the major termini the reverse applied, the stopper arriving shortly before each express. It was a notably busy line, with a lot of freight as well. Coal trains from the Ayrshire collieries to the new Longannet power station in Fife, provided with nothing more than two Class 20, were a particular challenge to thread through.
 
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