Glasgow to Edinburgh 1960 to present

[hexagon789]

Also regarding the 47s, IIRC there were 10 47/7s to run the service? Presumably the push-pull only needed 4 diagrams (as I would guess it would be possible to turn them around in 10 minutes) in which case they had quite a few spare locos! Presumably as the locos were 'thrashed' there was a relative high chance of failure.

Markedly different from the contemporary railway!

12 originally for five circuits (4 in permanent traffic, and one stabled hot spare at Eastfield that worked over on a morning peak extra). Another 4 locos were converted in 1984 to allow all Glasgow-Aberdeen to become push-pull in May 1985 adding three circuits. Edinburgh-Aberdeen also became push-pull from May 1986, but there were only two return internal trips on that route, other services being through HSTs to/from London/Leeds or LHCS XC, that added one circuit.

In May 1987, the Mk2 circuits were modified so that some swapped destinations at Aberdeen. A set from Glasgow might work back to Edinburgh for example.

47713 burnt out in 1988 and 47497 was converted to 47717 to replace it.

So 17 locos were converted in total. 12 existed 1979-84, 4 extra appeared in 84/5, one burnt out in 1988 and another was converted to replace it. There were never more than 16 in existence at any one time.

 

[QJ]

Taunton. At the time of my travels on an Ayrshire coal train freight trains hauled by class 20s had to have a brake van for the guard to ride in.

IIRC guards were not allowed to ride in the cabs of class 20s until a modification to the braking system was made to allow the guard to apply the brakes in an emergency without touching any of the driving controls. Once the mod. was made BVs on MGRs could be done away with.

I don’t know for sure how the coal trains were tripped to the power stations. It may explain why these trains were staged at Townhill / Millerhill etc if other motive power (such as ssc fitted class 26s?) took over the last part of the journey to the power station leaving the 20s (given how many of them there were) for the long distance donkey work.

I don’t recall the train I was on being looped other than the stop at Cadder Yard to change crews and locos. All perfectly fitted in between the passenger services. I do remember 40027 hammering past at Cadder heading for Dundee or Aberdeen whilst we were waiting to proceed back onto the main line.

I caught the 0435 train from Waverley to Queen Street a few times during the periods I spent travelling around Scotland. I also recall a couple of non push pull rush hour services between the two cities I caught a few times (steam heat class 47s usually I think).

There was also the Summer Saturday Scarborough service from Glasgow that was any old chuck out from ED to Edinburgh where (once the loco had been detached and moved out of the way) a class 08 shoved the stock from Glasgow onto the back of coaches further up the platform to which the forwarding loco (usually a class 40) was already attached. This train warranted a relief to cater for the weeks when everyone working in the factories and shipyards went on holiday at the same time. Many a class 25 or class 37 haulage was enjoyed on these workings including a rather sick 25.0 on one occasion (loss of power when trying to get any speed going).

As people say it must have been fun fitting all these passenger and freight trains in the timetable.

 

[Taunton]

The 1973-ish magazine article on the coal trains, written I think by Derek Cross, well-known Ayrshire enthusiast and photographer, went right through with the Class 20s via Alloa to the Longannet discharge. The emptied wagons were then worked forward to Townhill.

The E&G did have various oddball workings, I recall, end-1971, a football excursion from Glasgow of tatty Mk 1s, hauled by a single Class 27, coming into Haymarket. It was the last train I ever saw still in the old BR maroon livery, which was otherwise extinct by that time.

 

[Harvester]

What happened to the Mk3 coaches after the 47/7s moved on to Waterloo-Exeter, and the DBSOs Liverpool St-Norwich services. Did they get incorporated into the WCML hauled stock formations?

 

[hexagon789]

What happened to the Mk3 coaches after the 47/7s moved on to Waterloo-Exeter, and the DBSOs Liverpool St-Norwich services. Did they get incorporated into the WCML hauled stock formations?

Yes, that was where they came from and that was where they went. The ScotRail Mk3s were the last to be refurbished, retaining the original 72 seat TSO configuration the longest, IC had to lend ScotRail some of its own allocation towards the end to free up the ScotRail Mk3s for refurbishment.

The unique Composites were done last, some went back to being full Firsts, but iirc 4 were converted to standards - you could tell then apart from the usual TSO vehicles by the fact they only had 74 seats instead of 76 after refurbishment.

 

[43096]

Yes, that was where they came from and that was where they went. The ScotRail Mk3s were the last to be refurbished, retaining the original 72 seat TSO configuration the longest, IC had to lend ScotRail some of its own allocation towards the end to free up the ScotRail Mk3s for refurbishment.

The unique Composites were done last, some went back to being full Firsts, but iirc 4 were converted to standards - you could tell then apart from the usual TSO vehicles by the fact they only had 74 seats instead of 76 after refurbishment.

12169-172 were the four converted from 11908/09/10/22. 11905/06/07 reverted to 11005/06/07.

 

[hexagon789]

12169-172 were the four converted from 11908/09/10/22. 11905/06/07 reverted to 11005/06/07.

I think 69-72 later became TSOD with disabled toilets from ~1992 or so?

 

[Strathclyder]

12 originally for five circuits (4 in permanent traffic, and one stabled hot spare at Eastfield that worked over on a morning peak extra). Another 4 locos were converted in 1984 to allow all Glasgow-Aberdeen to become push-pull in May 1985 adding three circuits. Edinburgh-Aberdeen also became push-pull from May 1986, but there were only two return internal trips on that route, other services being through HSTs to/from London/Leeds or LHCS XC, that added one circuit.

In May 1987, the Mk2 circuits were modified so that some swapped destinations at Aberdeen. A set from Glasgow might work back to Edinburgh for example.

47713 burnt out in 1988 and 47497 was converted to 47717 to replace it.

So 17 locos were converted in total. 12 existed 1979-84, 4 extra appeared in 84/5, one burnt out in 1988 and another was converted to replace it. There were never more than 16 in existence at any one time.

Was much the same story with the DBSOs, with 14 Mk2s total converted, but the most that existed at any one time is 13 (9706 of course being written off after the Polmont accident in July 1984, with 9714 being converted to replace it).

 

[hexagon789]

Was much the same story with the DBSOs, with 14 Mk2s total converted, but the most that existed at any one time is 13 (9706 of course being written off after the Polmont accident in July 1984, with 9714 being converted to replace it).

9714 was also the only disc braked one in the second batch. 9711-13 having tread brakes.

 

[Justin Smith]

I was reading through back issues of Milepost (Quarterly journal of the Railway Performance Society) and found an article on the newly introduced (at that time) class 170s on the SR by Sandy Smeaton who lists the following booked times for Glasgow to Edinburgh with 3 stops :

1967 - Class 120 DMU - 59mins
1975 - Two Class 27s + 6 - 47.5mins
1986 - Class 47 + 6 - 48mins
1996 - Class 158 DMU - 50min
2000 - Class 170 DMU - 48min

Amounts of built in recovery time may vary !

 

[hexagon789]

I was reading through back issues of Milepost (Quarterly journal of the Railway Performance Society) and found an article on the newly introduced (at that time) class 170s on the SR by Sandy Smeaton who lists the following booked times for Glasgow to Edinburgh with 3 stops :

1967 - Class 120 DMU - 59mins
1975 - Two Class 27s + 6 - 47.5mins
1986 - Class 47 + 6 - 48mins
1996 - Class 158 DMU - 50min
2000 - Class 170 DMU - 48min

Amounts of built in recovery time may vary !

1967 has the wrong traction. 120s were Aberdeen-Inverness, the E&G used 79xxx Swindon InterCity DMUs (which never received TOPS numbers), which were very similar to the 126s used in Ayrshire bar certain detail differences.

I don't know where 3 stops comes in for 1975, even the peak service was no more than two. Still 43/45 mins with no recovery time in 1975. 2 mins added 1977, a further 2 mins in 1978.

1986 would be 47/7 + load 5 Mk3/2F DBSO set. The sets were specifically shortened to load 5 and the FOs converted to COs in 1986 to improve performance. It was found that performance with 3 stops could be maintained with 6 on, so sets mostly reverted during 1987.

2000 would be the original 15-min frequency pattern:

XX:00 Falkirk High, Linlithgow, Haymarket
XX:15 Croy, Falkirk High, Haymarket
XX:30 Falkirk High, Linlithgow, Haymarket
XX:45 Falkirk High, Polmont, Haymarket

A brief reversion to 30-mins in 2001/2 due to driver shortages(!), then in 2002/3 it became the familiar pattern with Croy and Polmont getting half-hourly services.

 

[Justin Smith]

RPS milepost 21.5 (Oct 2000) has an article by Martin Robertson on Glasgow to Edinburgh from the 1960s to 2000.
Logs for 42 runs are published and points of interest include the fact the Swindon DMUs rarely went above 70mph, and many didn't even make 70mph.
One or two logs for the with C27s went up to 94mph, and one non stop run from Glasgow to Haymarket in Aug 1973 making it in 36min 5sec, an average of over 76mph start to stop.
One run in July 1984 with a C47 + 6 made 105mph on level track and got to Haymarket non stop in 34min 33 sec, an average of over 80mph start to stop.

 

[Bevan Price]

Martin Robertson has just done another article on Glasgow - Edinburgh in the July 2022 issue of RPS Milepost, covering up to electrification. That article prompted me to look back to some old timetables. In Summer 1961, although there were mostly hourly departures from each end, plus extras in most hours, the intermediate stopping pattern was anything but regular interval. Almost everything called at Haymarket - with no other intermediate stops, those train mostly took 55 minutes. Other trains called at one or more of Falkirk High, Polmont or Linlithgow; each additional stop typically added about 3 to 5 minutes to the overall journey time. Other smaller stations, some now closed, also received occasional calls by the Glasgow / Edinburgh semi-fasts, and there was one daily train each way that called at almost all of the intermediate stations. The smaller stations also received calls from other irregular services, such as the Glasgow to Fife direct service.

The Sunday services all ran via Falkirk Grahamston, also called at Linlithgow & Haymarket; these were mostly hourly, but with some 2 hour gaps, and took about 75 minutes. No other intermediate stations were open on Sundays. I think that at least some were operated by Metro Cammell 3 car sets (later Class 101).