Glasgow to Paisley, 3rd line?

[Callum]

Not sure if this has been asked (I'm a newbie, and this is my first post, hi) but does anybody know if the plans for the 3rd line between Glasgow (Shields Road) and Paisley are still going ahead.

I know it was part of G.A.R.L, however the new platforms in Central were still built, and I'm sure I read somewhere the extra line would still be built... Can anyone help?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Hi and Welcome!

Yes, that much is still going ahead, but the spur to the Airport is not.
There's a bit more info on this thread.
The new platforms in Glasgow Central are completed and operational. Work on Gilmour Street Station is about to begin.

 

[Callum]

Thank you DaveNewcastle

 

[4SRKT]

Why does the world need a third line between Glasgow and Paisley?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'd be happy to respond, 4SRKT, but it would be really helpful to know if you're asking this after having read the problems with capacity on this stretch, the arguments for funding debated and contested in government, the proposal for dealing with the problem in NR's 2007 RUS, the proposed service patters to the SW of Scotland through that route and the conflicts with non passenger services there.
Or if you have not read all or any of these?

(I'm not trying to trip you up 4SRKT, but I would need to know. I could waste a lot of time cutting and pasting answers to your question which you know, or else providing justification of its relevance post-GARL cancellation which you hadn't assessed). Please advise.

 

[CarterUSM]

What are the proposals regarding services to the south west of Scotland davenewcastle? I must admit, i haven't even given them a though with regards to this. Stranraer getting its proper routing back would be an improvement anyway.

 

[rail-britain]

Stranraer getting its proper routing back would be an improvement anyway

Proper routing?
There has been little change since electrification

This has been an ongoing issue at Transport Scotland, the lack of "suitable" connections with the ferries has been disappointing
Part of the issue is the amount of time it takes to put the train timetable in place and sadly the ferry companies create their own
A number of measures are being put into place for the next timetable, however the original requests for two new rail services has been refused

However with the ferry terminal closing in 2014 the future of the line between Girvan and Stranraer is unknown
The discussions I have heard are that the line will remain open for a period of 12 months with regular customer surveys conducted during the first four months (hmm, winter season so can't see the loadings being very high!)

Moving on to the Glasgow South electrification and there is concern that the direct Glasgow - Kilmarnock - Carlisle service may be dropped, in favour of a Ayr - Kilmarnock - Carlisle service

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Why does the world need a third line between Glasgow and Paisley?

What are the proposals regarding services to the south west of Scotland davenewcastle?

Perhaps the best place to read forcast demands of the suburban traffic at Glasgow Central is NR's Rail Utilisation Strategy (RUS) 2007.
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/rus%20documents/route%20utilisation%20strategies/scotland/scotland%20rus.pdf

Its never wise to extract data out of context, but I think the following quote stands on its own okay, tho this para. is concerned with defining the challenge and only hints at the solution.

4.2.5 Route 26: Strathclyde and South West Scotland

4.2.5.1 Future overcrowding problems
The Strathclyde and South West Scotland Route comprises the local Glasgow suburban rail network and the south western lines to Stranraer and Gretna Jn. The Route also serves a number of freight facilities, the most significant of which are at Mossend and Coatbridge.
Tables 11 shows the predicted load factors over the RUS period and, for comparison with the SPA, the load factors that the model predicts will be reached by 2026 where load factors reach at least 70 percent before 2016. In our analysis of base year crowding we saw that load factors of over 70 percent during the three hour peak resulted in modelled loadings of 100 percent during the high-peak hour. We have modelled the one hour peak load factors on these service groups using the same passenger preferences for time of arrival at their destinations and the same seated capacities as are observed in the base year (2004/05).
There are a number of corridors which will see load factors exceed 70 percent by the year 2016. Of these the following corridors are predicted to have overcrowding.

South East – Lanark/Motherwell
The model predicts that crowding will worsen slightly on this route, although no intervention will be required within the timescales of this RUS.

Edinburgh – Glasgow Central via Shotts
The model predicts that crowding will worsen slightly on this route. Standing is predicted to begin, as modelled in the base year, only in the final stages of the journey.

Kilmarnock/Barrhead/East Kilbride – Glasgow Central
The model predicts a slight worsening of passenger overcrowding on these routes by 2016 with load factors increasing by two to three percent. The load factors on trains originating at East Kilbride are predicted to increase more than those on trains running from Kilmarnock/Barrhead.

Ayrshire – Inverclyde
The model predicts an improvement in load factors between the base year and 2016, although severe overcrowding is still likely to occur and will be further exacerbated by 2026. However we expect that Glasgow Airport Rail Link (GARL) will relieve some overcrowding between Glasgow and Paisley.

And tables 11 and 12 from the same document. (click to enlarge).

And this para:

Gap 23: Glasgow/Paisley/Ayrshire route capacity is insufficient to meet demand.

23.1 Recast stopping pattern
Of the current eight off-peak passenger trains per hour on this corridor, six run non-stop between Paisley and Glasgow with the other two calling at the three intermediate stations. It is proposed to revise this to two services (probably to and from Ayr) running non-stop with the other six calling at one of the intermediate stations. This would balance out the differential in timings of passenger and freight services over the corridor, thereby creating a more resilient timetable as well as better spreading the passenger load between Glasgow and Paisley. However discussions on the detailed timetable need to take place with Transport Scotland as funder and specifier of the franchise.

And

23.4 Additional peak trains between Ayrshire and Glasgow

This option considers the possibility of running additional peak trains on the Glasgow/Paisley/Ayrshire corridor. Analysis of the Glasgow/Paisley corridor indicates that at peak times there is no scope for the operation of additional trains without the construction of additional infrastructure (see option 24.2). Further analysis of the proposed Glasgow Airport Rail Link (GARL) is required to ascertain what additional capacity is available beyond that required for the GARL services.
Consultation responses produced a mixed view on this option but in general there was more support for the GARL option.

23.5 Additional peak trains between Paisley and Glasgow
This option proposes additional services on the Paisley corridor to aid capacity between Glasgow and Paisley. To deliver this, additional infrastructure consisting of a third bi-directional line between Shields and Paisley would be required. This would not provide relief to stations beyond Paisley and therefore would not address the whole gap. It would, however, provide additional capacity on the busiest part of the route with the option of improved connection into the bus service to Glasgow Airport.
Consultation responses were generally not in favour of this option.

Gap 23 Summary: Additional capacity will be created by recasting the timetable between Glasgow and Paisley and extending the services and a number of platforms to accommodate longer trains. As part of the signalling works renewal work on this corridor, options to create additional capacity are being considered.

Gap 24: Scottish Ministers’ aspiration to improve access to Glasgow Airport.
24.1 Additional trains between Paisley and Glasgow

If the infrastructure identified in option 23.5 was built then the additional peak trains could operate all day, connecting with a high frequency road or transit link to Glasgow Airport.

I do have to stress that the investment in the Airport Rail Link and the Shields-Paisley upgrade was the subject of continuing debate and scrutiny. Whatever our views, none of us can say it hadn't been thought through carefully enough!

It was the Scottish Government (and not Network Rail) who set the high forecast of growth of passenger numbers at Glasgow Airport. Even without the construction of the last mile of the Rail-Air link into the terminal, it is expected that shuttle busses will convey passengers to Paisley Gilmour Street in significant numbers, though I'm not aware that Transport Scotland has published a revised forecast for this since the Government cancelled the Airport rail link.

I hope this helps

 

[4SRKT]

I'd be happy to respond, 4SRKT, but it would be really helpful to know if you're asking this after having read the problems with capacity on this stretch, the arguments for funding debated and contested in government, the proposal for dealing with the problem in NR's 2007 RUS, the proposed service patters to the SW of Scotland through that route and the conflicts with non passenger services there.
Or if you have not read all or any of these?

(I'm not trying to trip you up 4SRKT, but I would need to know. I could waste a lot of time cutting and pasting answers to your question which you know, or else providing justification of its relevance post-GARL cancellation which you hadn't assessed). Please advise.

I could see its requirement when GARL was on the cards, but isn't the service just a progression of EMUs following one another down? Eight trains per hour ought to be accomodated on a double track main line, even if a couple of them serve the 3 intermediate stops.

I'm wasn't aware of the future plans, but DaveNewcastle's post is pretty informative.

 

[rail-britain]

Quite a bit has changed since that report (3 years ago, based on load figures from 2004/2005, in effect making it 5 years old)

Platform and passenger train lengthening commences from December 2010, to be extended from 2011

Coal trains in Ayrshire are expected to reduce in number from 2011, furthermore if the new power station is approved

Between Glasgow Central and Edinburgh, the local services now run at almost double the frequency
An offset will occur during 2010 and 2011 as the A2B route is established, East Coast will also remove their direct services

East Kilbride and Kilmarnock routes are due to be electrified, including platform lengthening
Additional Class 156 units will be used from the next timetable, primarily on Kilmarnock services
Once electrified platform lenghtening will allow trains of up to 8 coaches

As above, GARL no longer applies (due to be reviewed again 2012)
It has been proposed that some Inverclyde services do not operate beyond Paisley, the revised signalling and track layout will allow for this

 

[chic]

I could see its requirement when GARL was on the cards, but isn't the service just a progression of EMUs following one another down? Eight trains per hour ought to be accomodated on a double track main line, even if a couple of them serve the 3 intermediate stops.

I'm wasn't aware of the future plans, but DaveNewcastle's post is pretty informative.

The third rail allows overtaking as there are inverclyde services stopping at cardonald and the hillington stations to get bypassed.

Certainly it may have made more sense with GARL, but it's a very busy route between Paisley and Glasgow and certainly the capacity with the longer carriages of the 380's as well as the extra carraige and greater seating numbers on the 334's will make a big difference, the ability to run a tighter headway and have stoppers getting 'passed' will make a big difference to current conditions.

Next few Sundays will see engineering possessions, I dunno the works being done.

 

[rail-britain]

The third rail allows overtaking as there are inverclyde services stopping at cardonald and the hillington stations to get bypassed.

Next few Sundays will see engineering possessions, I dunno the works being done

There is going to be a new timetable for Ayrshire services, once the PCI is completed
Whilst Paisley Gilmour Street is closed, there will be a half-hourly Sunday service to Paisley Canal

 

[Maxfly]

Quite a bit has changed since that report (3 years ago, based on load figures from 2004/2005, in effect making it 5 years old)

Platform and passenger train lengthening commences from December 2010, to be extended from 2011

Coal trains in Ayrshire are expected to reduce in number from 2011, furthermore if the new power station is approved

Between Glasgow Central and Edinburgh, the local services now run at almost double the frequency
An offset will occur during 2010 and 2011 as the A2B route is established, East Coast will also remove their direct services

East Kilbride and Kilmarnock routes are due to be electrified, including platform lengthening
Additional Class 156 units will be used from the next timetable, primarily on Kilmarnock services
Once electrified platform lenghtening will allow trains of up to 8 coaches

As above, GARL no longer applies (due to be reviewed again 2012)
It has been proposed that some Inverclyde services do not operate beyond Paisley, the revised signalling and track layout will allow for this

Due when? the GBK line is way way way off getting any wires up tbh, 156's for next timetable...heard that for last 2 timetables and they still struggling for stock iirc so big if there tbh.

 

[CarterUSM]

There is going to be a new timetable for Ayrshire services, once the PCI is completed
Whilst Paisley Gilmour Street is closed, there will be a half-hourly Sunday service to Paisley Canal

Heard nothing about that surprisingly, it won't be particularly easy to man it on a sunday either.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Due when? the GBK line is way way way off getting any wires up tbh, 156's for next timetable...heard that for last 2 timetables and they still struggling for stock iirc so big if there tbh.

I'm just guessing, but i'm assuming that when the A-B project is up and running coupled with 158's on the Whifflets proper then there should be more 156's available. It's a tightrope just now with them if one fails. Though to ne fair, they're pretty reliable.

 

[rail-britain]

Due when? the GBK line is way way way off getting any wires up tbh, 156's for next timetable...heard that for last 2 timetables and they still struggling for stock iirc so big if there tbh

2014 to 2018, details will be available once the next franchise is in place, this electrification follows directly after Edinburgh - Glasgow QS, known in "The Office" as Glasgow South
This electrification pretty much ends Class 156 usage on Glasgow suburban lines
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Heard nothing about that surprisingly, it won't be particularly easy to man it on a sunday either

The timetable has just been put together and approved
Transport Scotland put the request in for the Sunday service, which FSR have managed to put together
However it doesn't run all day, only when Paisley Gilmour Street is closed

 

[CarterUSM]

2014 to 2018, details will be available once the next franchise is in place, this electrification follows directly after Edinburgh - Glasgow QS, known in "The Office" as Glasgow South
This electrification pretty much ends Class 156 usage on Glasgow suburban lines
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The timetable has just been put together and approved
Transport Scotland put the request in for the Sunday service, which FSR have managed to put together
However it doesn't run all day, only when Paisley Gilmour Street is closed

I've no doubt of that, but it will still have to rely on the goodwill of staff to do overtime, which won't be the easiest task at the moment.

 

[Maxfly]

2014 to 2018, details will be available once the next franchise is in place, this electrification follows directly after Edinburgh - Glasgow QS, known in "The Office" as Glasgow South
This electrification pretty much ends Class 156 usage on Glasgow suburban lines

Hmmm still reckon ye will be lucky, the video survery train went down the GBK about 2 months ago and on enquiry yep they were checking suitablity for putting up wires but that the GBK was very very far down the llist for who gets em first and that 10 years if very lucky may see the start of electrifying the line

I'm just guessing, but i'm assuming that when the A-B project is up and running coupled with 158's on the Whifflets proper then there should be more 156's available. It's a tightrope just now with them if one fails. Though to ne fair, they're pretty reliable.

Good point, would make sense. luckily enough with the better service they dont seem too jam packed now....wel not like they used to be lol Only get an occasional 6 car usually after a failure or when the ash cloud was dancing about the sky