GN Class 717

[jon0844]

The 313 seats are certainly a lot more comfortable, especially if going right down to Moorgate, don’t think I’d be able to handle the non-cushioned seats for that long...

It's interesting that when the 387s and the last of the 377s came with thin seats, we got the first moans about ironing board seats. That subsided a little until the 700s came, then picked up again.

That too died down and now you don't hear people moaning about the seats much. It only picked up (massively) when a few high profile people moaned to coincide with the introduction of 700 services on Great Northern. The thin seats were mentioned as if these were the first trains with 'ironing boards'.

Naturally, that died down too.

How is this on topic? Well, because looking online it seems there are very few moans about the seats on the 313s. Perhaps this is down to the fact the 313s were so old and were falling apart, compared to coming from a 365 or 387 (the 317s and 321s having gone long before) or that most people aren't really that bothered and only join in when someone else starts to moan.

As has been said before, with 313s offering a great service for those who board at Moorgate or WGC, but less so for those in between, the 717s are now making a real difference in allowing people to get on. These people never had seats in the first place, so aren't missing out. Chances are they're still not sitting down now - but they can at least breathe.

 

[Failed Unit]

People still detest the seats but no body cares. They know they have a captive audience.

I have heard people complain about how many people stand on the 717 compared to the 313. But that is probably down to the fact they have 100 less seats than the 313 equivalent.

To me the 717 are better than a kick in the crouch. But not much. Will still try for a 313 as any seat is better than no seat.

It just raises the question to why the tail industry thinks that declining standards is the only way.

 

[bramling]

It's interesting that when the 387s and the last of the 377s came with thin seats, we got the first moans about ironing board seats. That subsided a little until the 700s came, then picked up again.

That too died down and now you don't hear people moaning about the seats much. It only picked up (massively) when a few high profile people moaned to coincide with the introduction of 700 services on Great Northern. The thin seats were mentioned as if these were the first trains with 'ironing boards'.

Naturally, that died down too.

How is this on topic? Well, because looking online it seems there are very few moans about the seats on the 313s. Perhaps this is down to the fact the 313s were so old and were falling apart, compared to coming from a 365 or 387 (the 317s and 321s having gone long before) or that most people aren't really that bothered and only join in when someone else starts to moan.

As has been said before, with 313s offering a great service for those who board at Moorgate or WGC, but less so for those in between, the 717s are now making a real difference in allowing people to get on. These people never had seats in the first place, so aren't missing out. Chances are they're still not sitting down now - but they can at least breathe.

I’m not sure this forum is fully representative of widespread opinion on the 700s, for the simple reason that there’s the option to avoid the ironing board seats by way of using declassified first, which most if not all posters on here will know about, in contrast to the more typical user many of whom will be unaware of the declassification.

Indeed, one particular poster who is a strong supporter of the 700s went on record as stating he uses declassified first! Others on here such as myself simply plan around the 365 services, fortunately the timings of which generally suit me, or take the car when timings don’t suit. Other users such as another member of my household have already largely ditched the train altogether for various reasons.

I happened to go one stop on a 700 yesterday in standard class and heard someone comment to their companion “these seats are dire”. Not bad considering this is my first journey in standard on a 700 in a year!

 

[hwl]

Not so much a problem on these metro units but perhaps an unpopular opinion: I'd rather travel comfortably the vast majority if not every journey in my life and not fair well the very, very slim chance there's a crash than have comfort being an afterthought for every journey of my life. If the regulations were so dire, all old trains should've been stripped of their seating and replaced with the 'crash worthy' seats if they make that big a difference because safety of passengers should be paramount.



Agreed, a wide aisle is truly helpful and although fit outs may not be great for off peak or long distance travellers it's truly something special to see the way these Desiro cities can swallow up crowds with minimal fuss.

I do however agree the seats should be a few inches from the wall. If they were, that lack of space in-between the seats wouldn't be so much of an issue as someone by the window seat would be able to occupy their seat fully rather than be overhanging because the few inches by the wall can't be used as their arm is there instead.



Quite an interesting point of view which I agree with to some extent. I see modern walk through trains with wide aisles, poor legroom and slim seats (and few of them) as a gap fill measure. Until there's money to actually invest in the current infrastructure to a significant extent and make more of it. Perhaps even a drastic change in the way people work to relieve rush hour pressure will come first. Either way until those days come all we can do is put in less seats, cram in those extra people, shave off those few seconds at stations etc. Little things that add up to a significant amount, but those are the little things we're already doing and no more can really be done. What comes next when passenger demand on Thameslink outgrows the 700s running at 24tph? That's when infrastructure has been stretched and the only resolution is more of it. It's truly something for a 12 car train to be full. I understand ''gap fill" may not be the right term as the "gap" I describe is quite some time and money ever just becoming available to build another 3 lines is unrealistic but I hope I've somewhat gotten my point across.

I realise I've gone off topic now I apologise.

I suspect you are just to young to remember when there was a much higher on board casualty rate on the UK rail network.

Good modern seat design is now credited with saving lives and preventing serious injury.
The final straw for bad seat design (and non laminated glass) was Ufton Neffet and the RAIB and coroners reports.(The third of Great westerns bad HST crashes)
GWR fitted new seats to the HSTs soon afterwards (and laminated glass - Croydon and other trams should note...). Coupling requirements were also strenghtened. SWT fitted new seats and glass to the 455s, which is creditted with saving 3 lives in the flying cement mixer incident.
The 1970 and 80s plastic and fibre glass structure seats were found to structurally degrade and have laregly been replaced. Low backed seats were also found to increase casualty rates hence high backed. The low casualty rate at Greyrigg was judged to be becasue of the implementation of best practice on the Pendolinos.

The 700 contract has the option to retro fit LO style bench seating to deal with growth.

 

[Ethano92]

I suspect you are just to young to remember when there was much higher on board casualty rate on the UK rail network.

Good modern seat design is now credited with saving lives and preventing serious injury.
The final straw for bad seat design (and non laminated glass) was Ufton Neffet and the RAIB and coroners reports.(The third of Great westerns bad HST crashes)
GWR fitted new seats to the HSTs soon afterwards (and laminated glass - Croydon and other trams should note...). Coupling requirements were also strenghtened. SWT fitted new seats and glass to the 455s, which is creditted with saving 3 lives in the flying cement mixer incident.
The 1970 and 80s plastic and fibre glass structure seats were found to structurally degrade and have laregly been replaced. Low backed seats were also found to increase casualty rates hence high backed. The low casualty rate at Greyrigg was judged to be becasue of the implementation of best practice on the Pendolinos.

The 700 contract has the option to retro fit LO style bench seating to deal with growth.

Indeed I am too young, very informative thank you. Nevertheless I wasn't saying let's get rid of all regulations but as you've said, the retrofitted seats on 455s helped save lives. Those seats are very comfortable for the length of journey made on them, they're on my local line. Why do we need to go to the extent of the seats on 800s for example, those simply aren't adequate for journeys beyond say Swindon or Bristol parkway. Laminated glass makes complete sense and doesn't effect passenger comfort at all.

As for bench seating although that will increase capacity quite a bit, it's still just cramming those few more people in again rather than actual change meaning that everyone travelling outside of peak time ends up sitting on a literal metro train potentially as far as Brighton, Bedford, cambridge etc. That's pretty poor and I really don't see how we can genuinely accept that as a solution.

 

[hwl]

I’m not sure this forum is fully representative of widespread opinion on the 700s, for the simple reason that there’s the option to avoid the ironing board seats by way of using declassified first, which most if not all posters on here will know about, in contrast to the more typical user many of whom will be unaware of the declassification.

Indeed, one particular poster who is a strong supporter of the 700s went on record as stating he uses declassified first! Others on here such as myself simply plan around the 365 services, fortunately the timings of which generally suit me, or take the car when timings don’t suit. Other users such as another member of my household have already largely ditched the train altogether for various reasons.

I happened to go one stop on a 700 yesterday in standard class and heard someone comment to their companion “these seats are dire”. Not bad considering this is my first journey in standard on a 700 in a year!

The 700 first class seat is still the Fainsa Sophia Ironing board, just different cushions and headrest design also seen on IEPs.

PS: 6 years on Monday since I made the ironingboard April fool's joke...

 

[bramling]

The 700 first class seat is still the Fainsa Sophia Ironing board, just different cushions and headrest design also seen on IEPs...

One way or other, the 700 first seat isn’t too bad - at least for a medium-length journey, I’m. It sure I could quite tolerate London to Penzance. Personally I still find it a little too upright than my ideal preference, but still tolerable. The standard seats are terrible - not just the seats but the issue with the ducting and the cantilever getting in the way.

The Networker seats I find perfect for me, right down to the footrest opposite on the facing seats - never sure if this was actually a deliberate design feature or a design accident, but it works very well indeed.

 

[jon0844]

I’m not sure this forum is fully representative of widespread opinion on the 700s, for the simple reason that there’s the option to avoid the ironing board seats by way of using declassified first, which most if not all posters on here will know about, in contrast to the more typical user many of whom will be unaware of the declassification.

I wasn't referring to here though. Rather the comments on Facebook pages, Twitter etc.

People have plenty to moan about, but it seems the seats are rarely mentioned now. Perhaps backs have adjusted?

I find the seats to be quite firm, but supportive. However, I do where possible favour 'first class' seating. Often that's not possible as they're the more popular seats for obvious reasons (not just more padding, but more room, power sockets and tables).

The 717s at least have power sockets throughout, which is a nice bonus. I don't often need to charge a phone on a short journey, but it's nice to be able to give my laptop a boost sometimes.

The most uncomfortable seat I've sat in of late is standard class on a Eurostar e320. That actually gives me pain in the lower back that I don't think I've encountered on any seat, whether car, bus, coach or airplane.

 

[jon0844]

It just raises the question to why the tail industry thinks that declining standards is the only way.

You already know the reason. It's to move more people.

People using the tube every day are used to standing, and sadly more people on the outskirts of London are going to have to get used to that too. Most people just want to get on a train, especially with a lower service frequency than the tube.

Adding more services will at least spread the load so that on many occasions you'll have a chance of getting a seat, and standing will be reserved for when there's a cancellation and two trains have to fit into one. 700s have been a godsend for getting everyone on their way again.

Even last weekend when I was warned that my train was full and standing, as people were going into London for the people's vote march, everyone got on. Now, it's worth adding that the train wasn't as busy as made out, but it was still busy enough that had it been a 377 (this was at St Albans) before the 700s, especially a 4 or 8 car service instead of the 12 car train that turned up, a lot of people would have been left waiting 30 minutes for the next one*.

* Well, there was a stopper as an alternative, but we all know that many people are almost allergic to taking slow trains.

 

[Failed Unit]

I know this is old ground but great northern never suffered from severe overcrowding in normal service.

The times problems occurred didn’t need the 700s to resolve them.

Weekends - 8 car trains. Overcrowding solved. Even now. Run 2tph rather than 1 with 8 car trains would remove over crowding. But because of GTRs inability to plan. We won’t see 2tph at weekends until May.

The 717s are a capacity improvement on paper. But I wonder they will ever see the amount of passengers on board GTR claim. We have all gone if a lift with 8 people crammed in - but the notice claims it can take 10.

As I have said previously the LU stock on the metropolitan line offers comfort or space. Why couldn’t the use this as the base? The 717s are dreadful. But it is sad all the problems were known on the 700s but no improvements were implemented.

 

[Bald Rick]

PS: 6 years on Monday since I made the ironingboard April fool's joke...

Yes you haven’t been forgotten or forgiven for that! (We know where you live )

 

[Bald Rick]

I’m not sure this forum is fully representative of widespread opinion on the 700s

You’re quite right. The vast majority of passengers don’t give a toss. I can’t remember the last time I heard anyone complain about them on any 700 train on any route. Also, of the couple of hundred of people. I know who commute on 700 services, no one voices an opinion.

 

[Failed Unit]

You’re quite right. The vast majority of passengers don’t give a toss. I can’t remember the last time I heard anyone complain about them on any 700 train on any route. Also, of the couple of hundred of people. I know who commute on 700 services, no one voices an opinion.

I would dispute that. Seat comfort has declined on the last ORR survey compared to when the 317 / 321 / 365 ran the route. But then nearly every KPI dropped on great northern.

 

[hwl]

Yes you haven’t been forgotten or forgiven for that!

I still have the shirt but the iron needed replacing in the last year...
I'm still a big fan of them when well implemented, very good for posture, excellent Grab handle implementation for more comfortable standing just slightly let down by the choice of base cushion and some of the cloth choices have been dubious (all easily fixable)

(We know where you live )

And so does the board of Siemens AG

 

[Aictos]

The 717s are dreadful. But it is sad all the problems were known on the 700s but no improvements were implemented.

1. The Class 313s are far worse then the Class 717s for various reasons listed below:

No CIS system
Random PA announcements if you're lucky
Takes longer to accelerate from station stops
No Air Con
No Power Sockets
No Wifi
Unable to cater for large crowds ie being unable to board at times
Past their prime, ie they're 40 years old do you really expect them to continue for another 40 years?

2. The Class 717s are a massive improvement for various reasons listed below:

Proven CIS system with PA announcements
Quicker to accelerate from station stops
Air Con so more comfortable in both winter and summer as Class 313s have always had issues with this
Power Sockets, handy for the commute to work to charge up your phone if need be
Wifi which should be standard on any fleet
Easily be able to swallow large crowds without difficulty, the only issue is people still crowd around specific doors when there's multiple doors available
New so have the rest of their working life ahead of them.

3. You moan about no improvements, the Class 717 is a Metro design used to transporting large crowds of people from A to B as quickly and as reliably as possible indeed it's a welcome fact that they have wifi and power sockets when they could have just not had them in the first place.

4. You have stated numerous times about the lost 100 seats and that people who would have had a seat now have to stand; the fact remains that not can those people still board the Class 717s but those people who couldn't board the Class 313s because of how overcrowded they got, now actually can board their services even if they have to stand for 15 to 20 minutes which isn't the end of the world.

5. IF Govia went with the option of having LO style seating which would mean even less seats but far more standing space no doubt some people would be up in arms about it however most people would just get on with life and not make such a song and dance about it.

6. Like it or not the Class 717s are here to stay and the sooner the Class 313s get scrapped the better, maybe the cab end of a Class 313 could be used with Train Simulator to simulate in a museum how travel used to be like in much the same way that the London Transport Museum had these BVE Sims a few years ago.

 

[ijmad]

I would dispute that. Seat comfort has declined on the last ORR survey compared to when the 317 / 321 / 365 ran the route. But then nearly every KPI dropped on great northern.

And yet Thameslink, that runs a service which is now exclusively Class 700s (with the same seats), has an ORR comfort score that is middle-of-the-pack, beating Southern and Southeastern on comfort, with fewer people reporting being 'dissatisfied' with the seat comfort than SWR and London Overground.

Most people really aren't bothered by the seats.

Without wishing to sound unkind, I wonder if the demographic of this forum (which I suspect is male biased and nearing/over 40) is perhaps more sensitive to a lack of cushioning and knee pain issues than a member of the commuting public taken at random.

 

[Bald Rick]

I would dispute that. Seat comfort has declined on the last ORR survey compared to when the 317 / 321 / 365 ran the route. But then nearly every KPI dropped on great northern.

I don’t think you can dispute that I haven’t heard anyone complaining about seats on the 700s (whilst on the train) for. Long time, nor that any of the people I know who use the 700s have an opinion on the seats.

Unless that is that you have been following me around, and have heard people complain within my earshot, and/or you know all my friends too and they’ve been telling you a different story.

 

[DPQ]

Without wishing to sound unkind, I wonder if the demographic of this forum (which I suspect is male heavy and nearing/over 40) are perhaps more sensitive to a lack of cushioning and knee pain issues than a member of the commuting public taken at random.

Just to clarify do you mean Male Heavy as in mostly male, or do you mean Male and Heavy?

 

[Aictos]

And yet Thameslink, that runs a service which is now exclusively Class 700s (with the same seats), has an ORR comfort score that is middle-of-the-pack, beating Southern and Southeastern on comfort, with fewer people reporting being 'dissatisfied' with the seat comfort than SWR and London Overground.

Most people really don't care about the seats.

Yet most of the demographic views of this forum would always disagree with that even if facts are available and show them as in the demographic views to be wrong.

Funny though how Great Northern which runs the exact same trains as Thameslink which you've posted has a ORR score which beats two other TOCs in the Network South East area for comfort are deemed to be uncomfortable by the same minority residing here.

Surely the trains if they're fit for Thameslink with a decent score they're fine for Great Northern?

Without wishing to sound unkind, I wonder if the demographic of this forum (which I suspect is male heavy and nearing/over 40) are perhaps more sensitive to a lack of cushioning and knee pain issues than a member of the commuting public taken at random.

Maybe, I know there's some trains which I find the seating to be awful such as the seating fitted to the East Midlands Trains HSTs whereas the seating fitted to Great Western Railway is far more comfortable - each to their own though.

 

[ijmad]

Just to clarify do you mean Male Heavy as in mostly male, or do you mean Male and Heavy?

Hah, I meant mostly male. I changed it to 'biased'.

 

[Bikeman78]

Just a point of order, the seats on the GN 313s (apart from the three ex Silverlink units which retain their original seats) date from a refurbishment carried out by WAGN in the late 1990s.

Out of interest, are the seats fitted in the Southern 313s still compliant? These were fitted rather more recently, and don’t seem to attract too much criticism.

Personally, I’d rather have some of these older designs and take the risk on crashworthiness.

Correct me if I'm wrong but no class 313 carriages have been written off in 43 years. I'm way more likely to get killed cycling to the station; roughly 100 people per year are killed on bikes in the UK. Surprisingly, walking is slightly less safe than cycling.

 

[Bikeman78]

It's interesting that when the 387s and the last of the 377s came with thin seats, we got the first moans about ironing board seats. That subsided a little until the 700s came, then picked up again.

As has been said before, with 313s offering a great service for those who board at Moorgate or WGC, but less so for those in between, the 717s are now making a real difference in allowing people to get on. These people never had seats in the first place, so aren't missing out. Chances are they're still not sitting down now - but they can at least breathe.

The first trains I can think of with horrible seats are the early 1990s designs, 165, 166, 323, 465 and 466. The first new trains in the privatised era were a big improvement, e.g. 170, 175, 357. Getting back on topic, the best guide to the popularity of the 717s will be if off peak passenger numbers increase.

 

[JonathanH]

The first trains I can think of with horrible seats are the early 1990s designs, 165, 166, 323, 465 and 466.

Ironic that people have posted here about 365s having comfortable seats when you describe the same seat as being horrible.

Is the Networker seat worse than an 'Ashbourne' seat fitted to 150-156/319-322?

I'm sure people didn't like Inter City 70 seats when first fitted (and some still don't).

 

[Bikeman78]

Ironic that people have posted here about 365s having comfortable seats when you describe the same seat as being horrible.

Is the Networker seat worse than an 'Ashbourne' seat fitted to 150-156/319-322?

I'm sure people didn't like Inter City 70 seats when first fitted (and some still don't).

It's all relative. At the time I was used to units with springs in the seat bases. To be fair, I always found the 323s to be the worst; did/do they have thinner cushions? Are the Ashbourne seats the original seats in the classes you have listed? My biggest gripe with those is that they are too low.

 

[Bald Rick]

The worst rail seat I’ve ever been in was a Northern 156 from Preston to Windermere, I gave up after 10 minutes and stood. Then the airline seats in the original 150s, impossible for me to sit in. Then the sideways seats on the 378s. Then any of the low back seats from the 313s onwards. Then the seats in the 150s and 317s - 321s in bays.

As ever, it’s all opinion, of course.

 

[anamyd]

The worst rail seat I’ve ever been in was a Northern 156 from Preston to Windermere, I gave up after 10 minutes and stood. Then the airline seats in the original 150s, impossible for me to sit in. Then the sideways seats on the 378s. Then any of the low back seats from the 313s onwards. Then the seats in the 150s and 317s - 321s in bays.

As ever, it’s all opinion, of course.

Unrefurbished 156 with perished seat foam...?

 

[Bald Rick]

Unrefurbished 156 with perished seat foam...?

No, it was a seat I’d never experienced before. Possibly made in Hades.

 

[Failed Unit]

I don’t think you can dispute that I haven’t heard anyone complaining about seats on the 700s (whilst on the train) for. Long time, nor that any of the people I know who use the 700s have an opinion on the seats.

Unless that is that you have been following me around, and have heard people complain within my earshot, and/or you know all my friends too and they’ve been telling you a different story.

Fair point. I should have phrased that differently.

But I stand by my point that great northern passengers satisfaction is only going one way. Down.

Maybe Thameslink passengers being ground down.

It is of course also possible that people were so fed up the the failed timetable implementation they marked them down on everything when they filled in the survey.

But be careful - I am stalking you.

 

[Failed Unit]

No, it was a seat I’d never experienced before. Possibly made in Hades.

Maybe a “Richmond seat”. I actually find them the most uncomfortable seat on any train. They were also fitted to Northern’s 153s (originally on the east side) along with Scotrails 158s.

I have yet to go on a ScotRail 385. I understand they have purchased a higher quality padding for the seats thier compared to what GTR have.

 

[Failed Unit]

1. The Class 313s are far worse then the Class 717s for various reasons listed below:

No CIS system
Random PA announcements if you're lucky
Takes longer to accelerate from station stops
No Air Con
No Power Sockets
No Wifi
Unable to cater for large crowds ie being unable to board at times
Past their prime, ie they're 40 years old do you really expect them to continue for another 40 years?

2. The Class 717s are a massive improvement for various reasons listed below:

Proven CIS system with PA announcements
Quicker to accelerate from station stops
Air Con so more comfortable in both winter and summer as Class 313s have always had issues with this
Power Sockets, handy for the commute to work to charge up your phone if need be
Wifi which should be standard on any fleet
Easily be able to swallow large crowds without difficulty, the only issue is people still crowd around specific doors when there's multiple doors available
New so have the rest of their working life ahead of them.

3. You moan about no improvements, the Class 717 is a Metro design used to transporting large crowds of people from A to B as quickly and as reliably as possible indeed it's a welcome fact that they have wifi and power sockets when they could have just not had them in the first place.

4. You have stated numerous times about the lost 100 seats and that people who would have had a seat now have to stand; the fact remains that not can those people still board the Class 717s but those people who couldn't board the Class 313s because of how overcrowded they got, now actually can board their services even if they have to stand for 15 to 20 minutes which isn't the end of the world.

5. IF Govia went with the option of having LO style seating which would mean even less seats but far more standing space no doubt some people would be up in arms about it however most people would just get on with life and not make such a song and dance about it.

6. Like it or not the Class 717s are here to stay and the sooner the Class 313s get scrapped the better, maybe the cab end of a Class 313 could be used with Train Simulator to simulate in a museum how travel used to be like in much the same way that the London Transport Museum had these BVE Sims a few years ago.

You clearly have not travelled on a 717. The CIS doesn’t work on any of the journeys I have used.

Personally i don’t care about wi-fi and the majority of people can’t use the power points as they are standing. Seat back tables would be more useful in my opinion. Never seen anyone use the plugs.

Agree the air conditioning is an improvement.

No idea how you can comment on 4 when you don’t travel on the route. People are still getting left behind. In fact this never happened on the Gordon Hill - Moorgate trains. Maybe people looking out the new trains. But people still get left behind.

Reliable? We will see. The 700s still can’t match the 313s but they are getting closer.