Good/bad points about class 323s

[Blindtraveler]

Hi.

Over in trip reports and nastalgia theres a debate on the 323s, there good, there bad and there indifferent threatening to take over 4SRKT's very entertaining 2011 blog so as promised, starting/carrying on the discussion here, in its riteful place!

The story so far:

ivo doesnt like the units, (lm examples) at all, with particular hatred of

faulty floors
toilets
seats
and a number of other things and says the interesting traction motors sound weard. He does like the front end design

I dont find the seating on lm units cumfortable but love the traction motor noises.

Niether of us have used any of the northern units

Sprinterguy, defending in the read corner is overall pleased, has had no problems incl seats and bogs and his Mrs even likes the lm seat covers! Unsure if he's used northern units.

Ivo also doesnt like pasers and hates them even more than 323s. Dont know sprinterguys take on pasers but personally i like them.

Ok foalks, discuss!

P.S, if any of the above is inaccurate, would Ivo/Sprinterguy please post corrections below. Thanks

 

[Ivo]

The Opposition Retaliates...

323s are awful units. They make some of the weirdest sounds on the network (they sound like they belong in a 1970s video game), and those that aren't weird aren't interesting in the slightest; their seats are too low, uncomfortable, dirty, poorly looked after and cramped together; their toilets never work, or on the rare occasion that they do they haven't been treated; the floors and walls are extremely soft, extremely loose, and vulnerable to "flapping"; they are slow, and accelerate poorly as well; they have archaic interiors (slam doors between carriages when HSTs had automatics fifteen years earlier?); the doors are too close to the ends of the carriage for a suburban unit; and they are characterless and empty-feeling on the inside.

I accept that a couple of these points are down to LM (not been on a Northern one), but the vast majority are failures of the units/manufacturer. If all they could churn out was rubbish such as this is it any wonder the 323 was their last unit before closure? Is the front end really the only decent thing they could adorn these forsaken things with?

Even 142s are more enjoyable units to travel on than these sorry things. And 142s make most dislike units seem like marvels.

 

[dave_wm]

I'm going to have to stand in and defend the humble 323!

I would say the weird traction motor noises are what give them their character - otherwise they'd be as bland as any other modern suburban EMU.

The seats aren't too bad for the journey they were intended for - commuter runs up to about 40 minutes, and whilst I'll admit the floors are poorly maintained, I've never had any problems with the walls.

They're not particularly slow - 90mph top speed, and the acceleration isn't too shabby either. I seem to remember a Railway Magazine Practise & Performance article timing a number of different trains between Birmingham International and Hampton-in-Arden, and the 323 was very quick - it beat the (non-stop) HST to Hampton-in-Arden even though it had to make a stop there, and managed to reach something like 84mph in the under two miles between the stations!

The 323s are actually one of the most capacious units on the network - the 3 car 323 seats 284 people, more than a 4-car Class 357 with the same 3+2 seating!

All in all, I think they've served Birmingham well over the years, and done the job they were designed to do, and well.

 

[SS4]

I think they've done a good job since they were only ever designed as commuter trains to/from BHM.
They're certainly better than the bus!

 

[Ivo]

The 323s are actually one of the most capacious units on the network - the 3 car 323 seats 284 people, more than a 4-car Class 357 with the same 3+2 seating!

All in all, I think they've served Birmingham well over the years, and done the job they were designed to do, and well.

I accept all the other points, but I want to comment on these two specifically. 323s are too "capacious" (does such a word exist?) for their size. Their seats are too close together. There is no room. The door areas are too small. They even manage to make London "sardine" commuters look more like cod, with plenty of room to move around. I'm not going to defend 357s, but having used them more than every other unit out there (one would assume!), I can say their even their seating is slightly squashed in some instances, but the only real problem with a 357 is banging your legs on the table! This is one of the good things about 323s, but it comes at the cost of not having tables! How can anyone like 323s?

Mind you, they suit the more southerly of the two cities they serve; awful stock for an awful city!

 

[SS4]

Why would you want tables for a 20 minute journey?

 

[dave_wm]

How rude! :P

Yeah, wasn't too sure capacious is a word - I kind of made it up and hoped it existed...
I'll admit the 2+3 seats are too close together if you don't know the person sitting next to you, but except during very busy times, most people won't sit in the middle seat of a bay of 3 anyway! Its better than the soon-to-be replaced 150s on the Snow Hill lines which have rows of 3 rather than bays - you couldn't get to the middle seat if you wanted to!

I will admit the door areas are a bit small - that can cause delays on busy / late trains with a short time somewhere like New Street. And I will admit that in the rows of seats you can quite often (at 6'2") have your knees jammed against the seat in front, but there are far more bays anyway, so thats not normally a problem.

I suppose I like 323s because they're the workhorses of my local Cross-City line - they're absolutely fine for the job they do

(Admittedly, I wouldn't want to ride one on one of the routes they used to operate - all stations Birmingham to Liverpool)

 

[mumrar]

Gonna have to stand in and make a defence for the 323s. They're a fantasically reliable and fit for purpose designed unit. Their performance is light years ahead of what they replaced, their ability to accelerate from a stand up gradients is phenomenal.

The traction sound is far better than some, like the 319&321 headache inducing buzz which is loud enough to be Jordan's vibrator!

The seats are close to get people in, same for the allegedly small doors which fit my bicycle in the doorway no problem. A 6-car set can seat as many as an 8-car elsewhere with most journeys at busy times between 10-35 minutes.

They weren't meant to be HSTs, they're not designed to do New Street-London but they are perfect for what they do.

 

[Ivo]

Why would you want tables for a 20 minute journey?

To write on?

I love your new location by the way. But I digress, how many others will know of Mobius...?

(Admittedly, I wouldn't want to ride one on one of the routes they used to operate - all stations Birmingham to Liverpool)

They used to run Birmingham-Liverpool?! That just aids my case. Hideous units for short journeys, but for almost two hours! I can only put up with them on NWM Challenge days because (a) I have a strong will to win and (b) with the exception of Aston it usually doesn't involve two consecutive journeys, and even then they only last about 20 minutes anyway.

 

[Blindtraveler]

To write on?

I love your new location by the way. But I digress, how many others will know of Mobius...?



They used to run Birmingham-Liverpool?! That just aids my case. Hideous units for short journeys, but for almost two hours! I can only put up with them on NWM Challenge days because (a) I have a strong will to win and (b) with the exception of Aston it usually doesn't involve two consecutive journeys, and even then they only last about 20 minutes anyway.

so Ivo aint convinced yet then.

Just to pic up on acceleration - i'd never have made a flight once if it wasnt for it, 5 mins down at bhm but despite being all stations he went for it and got us to international dead on! Was late to bhm incidentally, thankyou what was then central trains! You delayed me with your 3 cars but only 2 working engines turbostar but your older unit did the job enspite of being late itself!

 

[4SRKT]

I have very little to contribute to this topic except a picture of a 323 when new next to one of the 305s they replaced at Manchester Piccadilly.

I remember when the 305s replaced the virtually identical 304s a couple of years earlier thinking "what was the point of that?"

 

[Ivo]

I seem to recall you saying that on Monday! If my experience with other 3xx slam door stock is anything to go by, the newer trains were a step back

 

[4SRKT]

I seem to recall you saying that on Monday! If my experience with other 3xx slam door stock is anything to go by, the newer trains were a step back

I don't know. Much as I enjoyed the novelty value of 308s in the Aire Valley well into the 21st Century, the 333s are a massive improvement in almost every conceivable way.

 

[lm321412]

Heres my view on them:

1) Their seats are OK for the short distances you generally travel on. They seats are fairly thin but compared with a similar unit (378?) they are much more comfortable.

2) The TVs that used to be on the units were extremely annoying. When working, they gave me a headache due to having poor speakers that were too loud and "tin" like

3) The London Midland livery is vile on these trains. The yellow light casing completely ruins the front of the train compared with Northerns which still have the black light casing. Minor difference but it does completely ruin the trains front.

4) They have good acceleration and replaced 116,117,121,122 units that were extremely slow, noisy and dirty. The stand-in 310/312s were very much of the same and the new units has ensured X-City has increased in growth and also reliability has improved compared to the First Generation Stock.

5) To say they are slow is rubbish. There is nowhere on Cross-City where there is capacity to do more than 90mph and the stop-start nature means their current 90mph limit is perfect.

6) I would say that London Midland need to improve the units by doing the following:

Public Information Screens
Automatic Announcements
Repaint the vestible areas
New seatbacks
New lighting as to what 323205 has

 

[Ivo]

Apologies in advance if any of this sounds harsh...

Heres my view on them:

1) Their seats are OK for the short distances you generally travel on. They seats are fairly thin but compared with a similar unit (378?) they are much more comfortable.

Not a fair comparison. 378s were designed with standing capacity in mind, so their seats are extremely poor. I'm not overly fond of 378s either, but they fit their job so much better.

2) The TVs that used to be on the units were extremely annoying. When working, they gave me a headache due to having poor speakers that were too loud and "tin" like

They used to have TVs?

3) The London Midland livery is vile on these trains. The yellow light casing completely ruins the front of the train compared with Northerns which still have the black light casing. Minor difference but it does completely ruin the trains front.

Agree wholeheartedly. I've seen enough CT 323 pictures to know they looked better before.

4) They have good acceleration and replaced 116,117,121,122 units that were extremely slow, noisy and dirty. The stand-in 310/312s were very much of the same and the new units has ensured X-City has increased in growth and also reliability has improved compared to the First Generation Stock.

Nothing wrong with a 310 or 312! Some of the best post-1960 EMUs out there.

5) To say they are slow is rubbish. There is nowhere on Cross-City where there is capacity to do more than 90mph and the stop-start nature means their current 90mph limit is perfect.

They always seem to accelerate slowly to me. It isn't so bad from, say, 0-30, but beyond there it is worthless.

6) I would say that London Midland need to improve the units by doing the following:

Public Information Screens Screens might be taking it a bit far.
Automatic Announcements Subject to how they sound, I agree.
Repaint the vestible areas Without fail.
New seatbacks Ditto.
New lighting as to what 323205 has Can't comment, but would probably disagree. Most modern lighting gives me migraines...

Once again, sorry if any of that sounds harsh.

 

[TomJ93]

I like the heaters and the sounds

 

[mumrar]

You're totally wrong as regards the acceleration. I worked these units for 11 years, alongside the 310s at the beginning, and despite dropping the 4th coach a 310 still wasn't close. Redditch to New Street used to be timetabled 55 minutes and now it is 35 minutes, that's nearly a 50% reduction.

If you thought 323s on the Liverpools were bad, you should have done a 310 - appalling is the only word.

Most of your gripes seem to be desperate attempts to find straws to cling on to, wanting a table is perhaps the stupidest one of the collection, as is saying that 304/305/308 to 323 was a backwards step. Most passengers aren't going to furiously self-pleasure on sight of a slam door, or hearing an old compressor noise. The DMUs and 3xx units these replaced were hell in winter, and generally had shutlines around the doors that a horse could make love to! What you as an occasional traveller, versus those of us who've travelled on the primary route for 20 years, thinks is largely irrelevant.

 

[SS4]

They used to have TVs?

Yes and they played the same 4 stories over and over all day - it got boring very fast

 

[mumrar]

Yes and they played the same 4 stories over and over all day - it got boring very fast

Now this is true, but no longer applies, so it's an improvement.

 

[Ivo]

I accept that I have less experience with them. But that aside, there isn't much more I can say that I haven't already said. I will admit that I never used a 310 on the Midland routes, but back home they never seemed to cause problems. They blended in perfectly with the 302s and 312s and ran well enough.

Call this stubborn if you will, but a tirade of opinions alone won't change my opinion. The same applied for Pacers, but then I found a route I like them on. And unless the same happens to 323s, I doubt my opinion will change.

If I'm honest though, saying what I think is irrelevant is a bit too harsh. I wouldn't say that kind of thing if I was the one with the large experience base (say if a 357 "virgin" turned up and started criticising them).

 

[Blindtraveler]

wel again, i dont use them daily, say, nearer 4 or 5 times a year. I have familly, friends and work all within a 50 mile radius of brum and bassing myself in a small hotel on woodend road, handy for gravelly hill I can, thanks to the 323s and the odd xc voyager achieve all of the above during a monday to Friday visit meaning that when i do use them its generally to bhm and back. I hated the tellies, agree they need pis but if it was me would re seat them entirely. Would 378 style seating work on these allowing for more standees? I heard the cross city route can in general handle a maximum of 6 coaches?

 

[WestCoast]

I haven't been on a LM 323 for a while, but I have traveled quite a bit on Northern examples.

I think the noise they make is interesting, sets them apart from other EMUs and reminds me of the Jubilee Line 1996 tube stock. They're good commuter stock, not really suitable for longer runs (such as Central Trains use on Birmingham - Liverpool runs) but for shorter, stopping routes such as Manchester - Crewe/Stoke-on-Trent they are well suited.

Although having said that, in Northern-land we're very grateful for anything other than a pacer or a 150!

 

[lm321412]

Apologies in advance if any of this sounds harsh...

4) They have good acceleration and replaced 116,117,121,122 units that were extremely slow, noisy and dirty. The stand-in 310/312s were very much of the same and the new units has ensured X-City has increased in growth and also reliability has improved compared to the First Generation Stock.

Nothing wrong with a 310 or 312! Some of the best post-1960 EMUs out there.

Once again, sorry if any of that sounds harsh.

Definately not too harsh and some of your comments do have relevance, however I completely disagree with this.

OK a 312 is nine years younger than a 310 and should of been in use a short while longer, possibly with door locking.

However, to say "Nothing wrong with a 310" is rubbish. If we had them out on the XCity today then it would be constant breakdowns, slower journey times as those asbestos ridden sheds would be life expired. At their time, they were an advancement, but to compare them as better than a 323 is absolute tripe.

Ok, I like 310s but I must state they are now comparison to a 323.

 

[junglejames]

Ivo, I can accept your opinion on most things here (even if it is exagerated), but not on the acceleration. They are not slow at all. They have very good acceleration.

Ive never been on the LM units. Only the Northern units. Do they both have the same seat type? Northerns have the same seats as the 165/166s. Not the most comfortable, but still a lot more comfortable than a lot of more modern stuff we have got.
Now comparing the Northern 323s only, as they are what i know, I would rather be on a 323 than those awful new 350s. That is what i call uncomfortable.

Birmingham to Liverpool is definitely more preferable on a 323.
Space wise, they are good. If you get a train that isnt busy, they are really spacious. Yes they could be looked after better, but thats down to the operator, and not the train.
I think the 323s are fantastic little trains, and do the job brilliantly, and are suitable for a lot more. All this stuff about bad floors and walls does seem a little bit exagerated to me.
Hey, id rather do Euston to Glasgow on a 323 than on one of those pretendotrains (thats a pendolino by the way).

Nowt wrong with the 323s. If i was in charge id have them running past Ivos house every day!!

 

[4SRKT]

way).

Nowt wrong with the 323s. If i was in charge id have them running past Ivos house every day!!

Could be good for a bit of a loco-hauled drag then, given where he lives!

 

[sprinterguy]

At this point I can only agree with the sentiments of the likes of dave wm and mumrar: The 323s are excellent suburban/commuter EMUs that are ably suited to the duties they are asked to perform day in, day out. They're very quick off the mark, which is perfect for the regular stop duties they're used on. I like the design of the seating: They're firm without being uncomfortable, and the slim line design of the chair means that you can fit a large number of seats into a carriage and still leave space for the passengers. They're usually smart and tidy inside, and I think Soho depot does a fantastic job of keeping them in good condition. Oh, and the traction noises really do add character to the units.

And for the record, I haven't had any experiences of travelling on the Northern 323s, and I'm a fan of Pacers: My formative years were spent deep in Pacer territory, and the UK railways would be less quirky without them!

 

[Ivo]

Could be good for a bit of a loco-hauled drag then, given where he lives!

Either that, or wait a few years Bath won't have wires until about 2016 remember; and you won't be able to put 3-car units down the LTS line (even if their seating capacity is a match for the 357).

I do like 350s, but after a while they get boring. Also, they do have the same hideous seating that is found on 165s (I actually prefer 143s to those things!). At least they don't have the hideous interior announcement things, as classically eluded to by Mojo in this post from last year:

Yes those displays
Are really annoying
Because they take
Ages to scroll
Between all the
Pieces of
Information.

 

[WestCoast]

And for the record, I haven't had any experiences of travelling on the Northern 323s, and I'm a fan of Pacers: My formative years were spent deep in Pacer territory, and the UK railways would be less quirky without them!

As I've said before, Pacers (specifically the 2-car 142s) are fine for a jolly but they can be so very miserable on packed commuter runs (they do substitute EMUs on routes into Manchester), a 323 is a distant dream...

I really don't see the problem with 323s actually.

 

[The Planner]

Nothing wrong with them, they keep time on 350 diagrams in the West Mids and have slightly better door cycles too.

 

[sprinterguy]

As I've said before, Pacers (specifically the 2-car 142s) are fine for a jolly but they can be so very miserable on packed commuter runs (they do substitute EMUs on routes into Manchester), a 323 is a distant dream...

I really don't see the problem with 323s actually.

I'm quite happy with Pacers even when the loadings are "comfortably full", but it's true that on a packed commuter run they could hardly be worse suited to the task.