Gospel Oak to Barking Line (GOBLIN) electrification

[ac6000cw]

I've often wondered why many of the platforms are so long on this line.
Does anybody know the historical reasons ?
I know there was previously a link with Kentish Town and St Pancras but presume this was a DMU operation.

Harringay Green Lanes for example has very long platforms.

The planting of stations to make them more attractive is such a good idea.

Once upon a time, the Midland Railway (later LMS) controlled/owned the LT&S line, so there were St Pancras <-> LT&S trains (including boat trains to Tilbury), and probably good business in day trips from north London to the seaside etc. which might have justified the long platforms. There used to be east to south connections in the Kentish Town area to allow these trains to run directly into St Pancras (removed many years ago - only the east to west connection remains today).

 

[marko2]

Harringay Green Lanes at one time served the Harringay Arena an Harringay Stadium (capacities of ~10,000 and 50,000 respectively). The site of these two is now the Arena retail park and Sainsbury's store.

The site is said to have been made ground formed using spoil from construction of the Piccadilly line

 

[Taunton]

I've often wondered why many of the platforms are so long on this line.

When dieselisation of this line first occurred the Derby-built 4-car units from the St Pancras-Bedford scheme were used. These were later replaced by shorter units more suited to the daily traffic of the time.

However, throughout the 1960s there were summer services from Kentish Town through Barking to Southend using these trains, made up to 8-car rakes. I presume these fitted in platforms along the way, so I'm not quite clear how it got to the stage that anything more than 2-car sets today required extensive civils.

 

[Bald Rick]

When dieselisation of this line first occurred the Derby-built 4-car units from the St Pancras-Bedford scheme were used. These were later replaced by shorter units more suited to the daily traffic of the time.

However, throughout the 1960s there were summer services from Kentish Town through Barking to Southend using these trains, made up to 8-car rakes. I presume these fitted in platforms along the way, so I'm not quite clear how it got to the stage that anything more than 2-car sets today required extensive civils.

Pretty sure there were seaside specials St P / Kentish Town to Southend.

 

[Taunton]

Pretty sure there were seaside specials St P / Kentish Town to Southend.

Yes, they appeared in the 1960s timetables, for summer weekends and even weekdays in August, stopping at all stations on the line, when they departed Kentish Town about 0930 presumably to use stock from commuter services.

Strangely the line seems never to have had service from St Pancras, even in steam days, apart from oddball services that seem just for operating convenience. Trains mainly departed from Kentish Town, and sometimes from a bit further out such as Cricklewood.

 

[Mikey C]

Is the chord linking the GOBLIN to Kentish Town going to be electrified?

When was the last time it was used for passenger service? I vaguely remember using it 15/20 years ago, as GOBLIN trains were diverted from Gospel Oak due to engineering work.

 

[duncanp]

The chord linking the GOBLIN to Kentish Town was lifted in the 1980s after the trains were diverted to Gospel Oak (1981) , and before the opening of the Thameslink tunnel. (1988)

The line which diverges from the GOBLIN after Upper Holloway eventually joins the Midland Main Line before West Hampstead. (see Google maps) I don't know whether this is going to be electrified, but it would make sense.

 

[colchesterken]

Holding back the tears. I remember the Saufend specials form I think Kentish Town,
We as a family in the late 50s used to get the 10.10 AM special from Wanstead park
calling at Woodgrange Park for a drink for the engine then a non stop trip to Benfleet and all stations to Southend they were often standing only. All us kids with buckets and spades, they were so long they had to make a double stop at Wanstead Park on the way back, must have been 8 coaches

When you look at how the line was run down prior to privatisation and in Silverlink days
it is great to see what has happened under TFL just goes to show if you put in the trains people will use them. A 15 min service under Silverlink was unthinkable !

 

[Taunton]

The chord linking the GOBLIN to Kentish Town was lifted in the 1980s after the trains were diverted to Gospel Oak (1981) , and before the opening of the Thameslink tunnel. (1988).

If you visit the offices of the major civils contractor Murphy's at Kentish Town (and I know we have many from a civils background on here who will have done so), their buildings are on the inside of that curve, and they bought the curve alignment and the land beyond for their car park and plant yard. You can still make out the curve alignment through the car park area.

 

[coppercapped]

Once upon a time, the Midland Railway (later LMS) controlled/owned the LT&S line, so there were St Pancras <-> LT&S trains (including boat trains to Tilbury),...

Wow! A blast from the past! About 1959 or 1960 I went on a school exchange trip to Sweden. We travelled by boat train from St. Pancras to Tilbury docks by a very slow train hauled by a 4F...! The ship departed in the late afternoon and took some 36 hours to reach Gothenburg arriving in the early morning.

My, that was a long time ago

 

[PeterC]

The Summer 1963 Eastern Region timetable doesn't show any through trains, just additional LT&S services starting or finishing at Barking. But an examination of table 18 reveals 4tph on Sunday mornings from Kentish Town to Barking but only 2 tph in the reverse direction. The frequencies reverse in the afternoons.

 

[Mikey C]

The chord linking the GOBLIN to Kentish Town was lifted in the 1980s after the trains were diverted to Gospel Oak (1981) , and before the opening of the Thameslink tunnel. (1988)

The line which diverges from the GOBLIN after Upper Holloway eventually joins the Midland Main Line before West Hampstead. (see Google maps) I don't know whether this is going to be electrified, but it would make sense.

Ah yes, I now have vague memories that the train I took might have started from Kentish Town, gone northbound for a short distance along the MML, before reversing through the chord in question to access the GOBLIN.

This might be nonsense, but I'm pretty certain it didn't start from West Hampstead

 

[edwin_m]

http://binged.it/25I6AMq

The link above shows the Ordnance Survey in the area of the connections. You can see the link where MML trains from West Hampsted and beyond diverge at Carlton Road Junction, readily visible from MML trains as a tunnel portal diverging to the north and another empty one in between which I presume was an extension of the fifth and sixth tracks that now finish just north of Kentish Town. In this area the trackbed of the curve from Kentish Town (the Murphy compound) is also visible in the building line.

The connecting curve runs alongside but below the Goblin until they converge at the fantastically named Junction Road Junction.

 

[hwl]

http://binged.it/25I6AMq

The link above shows the Ordnance Survey in the area of the connections. You can see the link where MML trains from West Hampsted and beyond diverge at Carlton Road Junction, readily visible from MML trains as a tunnel portal diverging to the north and another empty one in between which I presume was an extension of the fifth and sixth tracks that now finish just north of Kentish Town. In this area the trackbed of the curve from Kentish Town (the Murphy compound) is also visible in the building line.

The connecting curve runs alongside but below the Goblin until they converge at the fantastically named Junction Road Junction.

Shown nicely on Carto Metro:
http://carto.metro.free.fr/cartes/metro-tram-london/

 

[mr_jrt]

Any use?

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/find/#zoom=17&lat=51.5539&lon=-0.1472&layers=61&b=7&point=79.1472,40.7569

 

[jopsuk]

http://binged.it/25I6AMq

The link above shows the Ordnance Survey in the area of the connections. You can see the link where MML trains from West Hampsted and beyond diverge at Carlton Road Junction, readily visible from MML trains as a tunnel portal diverging to the north and another empty one in between which I presume was an extension of the fifth and sixth tracks that now finish just north of Kentish Town. In this area the trackbed of the curve from Kentish Town (the Murphy compound) is also visible in the building line.

The connecting curve runs alongside but below the Goblin until they converge at the fantastically named Junction Road Junction.

is junction road named after junction road junction?

 

[swt_passenger]

is junction road named after junction road junction?

Ah, a puzzle that I looked into a few years ago!

The answer can be found on the old OS maps website, it turns out that Junction Road was on the 1850 street plan, and actually pre-dates all the railways in the area.

I can't find where I read it at the moment, but I think the road dates from the very early 1800s, and was built as some sort of short cut to link two other roads. I'll see if I can have a better search...

This page on Hidden London dates it to 1813, built to connect Tufnell Park to Upper Holloway.
http://hidden-london.com/gazetteer/junction-road/

 

[RichmondCommu]

I've often wondered why many of the platforms are so long on this line.
Does anybody know the historical reasons ?
I know there was previously a link with Kentish Town and St Pancras but presume this was a DMU operation.

In the days of steam, services ran from St Pancras out towards the Essex coast so that might explain the longer platforms i.e. longer distances, longer trains, especially before the days of mass car consumption.

 

[Taunton]

In the days of steam, services ran from St Pancras

In a 1962 timetable the service was from Kentish Town. It was (roughly) hourly daytime and evenings, and half-hourly in the peaks and Saturday daytime. Nothing ran from St Pancras except a few very early services, quite possibly for staff usage. the last direct from St Pancras was at 0648 in the morning, and the service had long been like this.

Because the running time was 33 minutes, it just wasn't possible for the hourly service to be run with one set, there was a reasonably quick turnround at Barking but the train stood for 45 minutes at Kentish Town, despite which it obviously was just not worthwhile to extend it down to St Pancras.

Notably the running time, with the same intermediate stops, was better than the current timetable, which takes several minutes longer!

 

[Bald Rick]

.

Notably the running time, with the same intermediate stops, was better than the current timetable, which takes several minutes longer!

Willing to bet the dwell times today are the sole reason for that.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Willing to bet the dwell times today are the sole reason for that.

That sounds reasonable. I vaguely remember 20-30 years ago, trains would be pulling into stations and people would actually have opened the doors, and maybe even be getting off before the train had quite come to a stop. With hindsight that's pretty dangerous but was normal then - and obviously would speed up dwell times. Plus in those days on many trains (dunno about the GOBLIN stock) there would be doors along the whole length of each carriage (instead of the 2 double-doors per carriage on most of today's commuter stock) - which I think is today considered unacceptable because of train crash-worthiness issues (?) but would also have speeded up dwell times. I would hazard a guess most trains were less busy then too.

Today we've sacrificed a bit of speed in favour of a lot of safety (as well as more frequent services).

 

[Bald Rick]

That sounds reasonable. I vaguely remember 20-30 years ago, trains would be pulling into stations and people would actually have opened the doors, and maybe even be getting off before the train had quite come to a stop. With hindsight that's pretty dangerous but was normal then - and obviously would speed up dwell times. Plus in those days on many trains (dunno about the GOBLIN stock) there would be doors along the whole length of each carriage (instead of the 2 double-doors per carriage on most of today's commuter stock) - which I think is today considered unacceptable because of train crash-worthiness issues (?) but would also have speeded up dwell times. I would hazard a guess most trains were less busy then too.

Today we've sacrificed a bit of speed in favour of a lot of safety (as well as more frequent services).

More to the point, as recently as seven years ago I caught trains on that line where everyone could get a seat on a half hourly 2 car service, and at some stations passengers boarding or alighting numbered in single digits.

Not so now, with trains nearly twice as long and twice as frequent.

 

[Mikey C]

More to the point, as recently as seven years ago I caught trains on that line where everyone could get a seat on a half hourly 2 car service, and at some stations passengers boarding or alighting numbered in single digits.

Not so now, with trains nearly twice as long and twice as frequent.

Yes, having no passengers getting on and off really speeds up the service

The 172s still have quite a comfortable seating layout, I wonder if they had 378s type seats and larger standing areas whether boarding times might be quicker?

 

[87015]

Yes, having no passengers getting on and off really speeds up the service

The 172s still have quite a comfortable seating layout, I wonder if they had 378s type seats and larger standing areas whether boarding times might be quicker?

Pretty much 30 second dwells everywhere bar the odd peak call with 172s so won't get any quicker in the timetable. 710s might speed up some of the running times, but nothing there to save on dwell times.

 

[PeterC]

In the early 60s there was no through Southend service advertised. On Monday to Friday there were some Barking - Southend services but only enough Kentish Town trains arrived at Barking to run the return service.

On Sundays there was a half hourly Barking - Southend service while 2 of the 4 tph arriving at Barking were not returning in service.

I am curious, were the Sunday services unadvertised through trains or did half the Kentish Town trains run back as ECS?

(All references based on the June 1963 timetable)

My other "heritage" timetable, a July 1950 ABC is far more interesting with Southend trains starting at various points from St Pancras to South Tottenham and a daily through service from Cricklewood and one round trip on Sundays from St Albans. A lot of Southend trains didn't call at Barking, on Sundays there were 5 non calling trains in succession with a 2 hour gap in Barking departures.

 

[MatthewRead]

When was the line first dieselised may I ask?

 

[racyrich]

Surely in the 1950s the Kentish Town-Barking service was actually Kentish Town-East Ham, using the north bay at East Ham. Or actually mix of East Ham and Barking trains.
When the LTS was electrified and the Barking flyovers installed it became possible to totally separate the BR trains from the District, so the service went to Barking and the curve at Little Ilford was removed. The last East Ham service was in 1958.

Looking in Middleton's St Pancras to Barking there are pics of DMUs in the early 60s.
The shots of steam trains in the 50s have wildly varying train lengths, from 3 to 9 coaches. I can't imagine the East Ham bay accommodating more than 4 plus a loco, and sure enough the caption on the 9 coacher has it going to Barking.

 

[class303]

This is one photo showing one track completely removed in Walthamstow, presumably to lower trackbed for bridge clearance?

Trying to attatch on my mobile. Not sure how will turn out....

 

[marko2]

Percussion piling for mast foundations is very audible today in the hills and valleys of North London. I live half a mile away from the line and it can be heard as a series dull thuds, with reverberations of nearby buildings.

 

[Bald Rick]

Percussion piling for mast foundations is very audible today in the hills and valleys of North London. I live half a mile away from the line and it can be heard as a series dull thuds, with reverberations of nearby buildings.

Sorry, that's me laying a patio