Government announces independent review into HS2 programme

[HSTEd]

If I lived in the EM I suspect I'd rather have more money spent on EMR (for instance more stock to allow all trains to be 10-car at all times plus rolling electrification) and lower fares than a Parkway in the middle of nowhere I have to drive to to take HS2 and EMR itself neglected.

Toton is hardly "in the middle of nowhere".... its hemmed in by housing on both sides!
Nottingham Midland station is hardly well positioned, and with the tram anywhere that would use the tram to get to the existing station will simply use the tram to Toton instead.
Anyone who lives near the ring road or the A52 will use Toton, because it is simply faster and easier to get to. Either by driving or by using a bus - buses can use dual carriageways too you know!

Its a much better positioned station for a modern city than demanding the trains be built into the middle of the Capital One headquarters because that is where the Midland Railway happened to chose.
Now if Victoria had survived.... but it didn't.

 

[Robertj21a]

Yes, and there is also the very thorny issue of contracts worth eye-wateringly large amounts of money that are already signed which have hefty get out clauses.

The other thing that gets me is that comments are turning up on the news, and on other websites about how HS2 should be scrapped and the money put into other rail projects.

I can guarantee that if HS2 is cancelled, the DfT will not see a penny of the money.

Just interested in how you can guarantee that ?

 

[HSTEd]

Just interested in how you can guarantee that ?

Because once the project is axed the Treasury will just reduce its baseline spending assumptions by the same amount.
There will be no freed money.

Someone will have to fight the Treasury all over again to get it.
And this is why the Treasury needs to be broken up.

 

[krus_aragon]

Given that Johnson has also christened himself "Minister for the Union", he could do a lot worse than getting the review to recommend an HSR all the way to the Central Belt, too...

If he manages to get a recommendation for HS2 services to (North) Wales as well, I'll eat my hat!

 

[RealTrains07]

Whether or not HS2 continues to go ahead their are things that still need to be taken into account

1) Euston still needs an extension

2) Phase 1 line is needed if anything considering the South WCML and the line to Birmingham paths are full to bursting point!

The most likely option i think would be a scale back of the project at this point

 

[diffident]

Because once the project is axed the Treasury will just reduce its baseline spending assumptions by the same amount.
There will be no freed money.

Someone will have to fight the Treasury all over again to get it.
And this is why the Treasury needs to be broken up.

That's exactly right.

 

[RealTrains07]

Bye bye HS2 and hopefully bye bye to the old oak commonnstation which will slow down journeys between Paddington and the west!!! Didn't really fancy having to stop 3 minutes after leaving Paddington anyway! Good riddance.

Surely not all trains, GWR mainly would stop at old oak common

 

[irish_rail]

......

 

[irish_rail]

It doesn't. What it does do is improve connectivity between the cities in the midlands and north and:

West London
East London (via Crossrail)
Heathrow
Central Southern England (as far west as Swindon)

Oh in that case the padd to Penzance stuff won't need to call at old oak common, excellent. Except they no doubt still will.....

 

[CharlesR]

Surely not all trains, GWR mainly would stop at old oak common

Eh? Where did you get this information from?

 

[irish_rail]

......

 

[Railguy1]

Oh in that case the padd to Penzance stuff won't need to call at old oak common, excellent. Except they no doubt still will.....

There may be people living in Old Oak Common who want to travel on the train - the area is earmarked for significant regeneration. It can also be arranged to be like Watford Junction and Virgin trains, where passengers can only get on and get off depending on the direction (not sure how it works in practice).

 

[CharlesR]

Oh in that case the padd to Penzance stuff won't need to call at old oak common, excellent. Except they no doubt still will.....

I highly doubt that High Speed services operated by GWR will serve Old Oak Common.

 

[Glenn1969]

Could they decide to save money by either not building or scaling down Old Oak Common?

 

[matacaster]

I beg to differ as it has been explained multiple times but since you insist on being so ignorant about the benefits to local areas as well, let me explain as I understand it how HS2 will improve the Birmingham area as a former resident.

At Birmingham New Street, Virgin Train has the xx:24 terminator from London Euston which sits in a platform until it forms the xx:50 to London Euston now that's 26 minutes in total.

26 minutes in total so that's on average 4 local services that could use the platform that is freed up by not having a Virgin Trains hog the platform for that length of time, 4 local services which instead of being spread over numerous platforms would have a cascading effect in that the former platforms they used to use would now be available for more local services.

Now by removing the 2tph that Virgin Trains terminates at Birmingham New Street and that comes to 52 minutes in every hour that platforms aren't being hogged by a VT which seeing how busy New Street can be and which needs every bit of capacity it can get, that freed up capacity can be used for more regional and local services.

Now try to explain how HS2 wouldn't improve the Birmingham area....

For the Virgin Birmingham trains clogging up the station, why not just electrify to Wolverhamton (if its not already electrified?) and terminate them in Wolverhampton?

 

[hwl]

I highly doubt that High Speed services operated by GWR will serve Old Oak Common.

Why do the plans for OOC have 4 platforms on the Main/Fast lines then?

 

[irish_rail]

I highly doubt that High Speed services operated by GWR will serve Old Oak Common.

I think you'll find they definitely will be (should HS2 actually happen)

 

[RealTrains07]

Eh? Where did you get this information from?

I meant to say GWR would not stop at old oak common, apologies

 

[CharlesR]

Why do the plans for OOC have 4 platforms on the Main/Fast lines then?

I just don’t see why services to Bristol, Swansea, Cheltenham, Hereford and Penzance would need to serve another major station just minutes after Paddington.

 

[CharlesR]

I seem to have been mistaken however I just don’t see the point in stopping High Speed Services there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For the Virgin Birmingham trains clogging up the station, why not just electrify to Wolverhamton (if its not already electrified?) and terminate them in Wolverhampton?

It is electrified, it'd just require an extra unit in the diagram.

 

[Railguy1]

I seem to have been mistaken however I just don’t see the point in stopping High Speed Services there.

The idea was for people from the North to make a connection available via Crossrail for Heathrow.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I just don’t see why services to Bristol, Swansea, Cheltenham, Hereford and Penzance would need to serve another major station just minutes after Paddington.

For connectivity with HS2. The "round the side" Southern train from MKC is very popular for similar reasons - schlepping across London is just a faff.

 

[ABB125]

If he promises something better and more appealing to the people of those towns, then it'd be a vote winner there. HS2 will have very little benefit for huge numbers of locals in Manchester who desperately want better local services for commuting/shopping/schools, etc. Plans to improve the existing local public transport in the short term will make the locals far happier than a 10/15 year plan for high speed trains to London.

Quite the opposite. Removing the fast London (and Birmingham) trains from the approaches to Manchester will allow a hugely improved local service due to the capacity release by lower speed differentials.

 

[Railguy1]

For connectivity with HS2. The "round the side" Southern train from MKC is very popular for similar reasons - schlepping across London is just a faff.

Saves a lot of money too

 

[Ethano92]

I think you'll find they definitely will be (should HS2 actually happen)

Why is one extra stop such a problem? Add 3 minutes to an already 6 hour or so journey to Penzance and all hell brakes loose. It's almost as if people will take advantage of the interchange opportunity

 

[hwl]

I just don’t see why services to Bristol, Swansea, Cheltenham, Hereford and Penzance would need to serve another major station just minutes after Paddington.

Heathrow connections as well as easier Crossrail interchange with all Paddington Crossrail terminators extended westwards.
along with the Paddington throat rebuild it will actually increase GWML Main/Fast Line capacity

 

[hwl]

Quite the opposite. Removing the fast London (and Birmingham) trains from the approaches to Manchester will allow a hugely improved local service due to the capacity release by lower speed differentials.

Exactly - the Midddlewich campaign needed to get writing in for a start!

 

[matacaster]

A relief line between Birmingham and London is all that is really needed. If the project is scaled back to deliver this, with the rest of the cash diverted to deliver trans-Pennine improvements, this will be a good thing in my view.

This is by far the most likely outcome, with total cancellation a less likely second option. HS2 was always about Birmingham and further south commuters getting to London. Phase 2A and B were just sops to make it look like the 'benefits' were going to be felt in the north. There really isnt much of a passenger capacity issue north of Birmingham except at peak times. North of Manchester, some trains could go via S&C using displaced HST's or other diesel stock - slower, yes, but its all about CAPACITY with HS2 isn't it? If its just about capacity and not speed, run some trains with very cheap fares through the night on selected slower routes to allow for maintenance.The transpennine improvements are likely to be a reinstatement of electrification of the existing line via Huddersfield. A line through central Bradford has ZERO chance and NPR is likely to get morphed into existing transpennine improvements.

 

[irish_rail]

Heathrow connections as well as easier Crossrail interchange with all Paddington Crossrail terminators extended westwards.
along with the Paddington throat rebuild it will actually increase GWML Main/Fast Line capacity

A west facing Heathrow chord at Langley for services from reading would be far more useful for people travelling to Heathrow from the west which I believe is in the pipeline. There is just no justification if that does happen for stuff from the far south west to stop at old oak.