Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It is however absurd that we are getting a massively expensive line to London
Its primary purpose is south WCML capacity!
It is however absurd that we are getting a massively expensive line to London
HS2 is being sold on the news as being for the north and yet I don't see the benefit. The line won't reach the north until 2032, at the earliest and i would be astonished if it isn't simply stopped at Birmingham to save money.
I am sure the OP will say exactly what he meant - but I took it as there are parts of the railways even younger than Victorian era infrastructure - and they need replacing never mind Victorian era assets.
Wikipedia gives this as the definition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwardian_era
My house works - doesn’t stop me renewing and replacing parts on an ongoing basis. Mechanical signal boxes work and are pretty- why replace them. Continuing program of rebuild renew and replace.But why replace it if it works?
HS2 is being sold on the news as being for the north and yet I don't see the benefit. The line won't reach the north until 2032, at the earliest and i would be astonished if it isn't simply stopped at Birmingham to save money.
What will the north get from this? Faster links to London? The TGV network shows that the benefits to regional cities from fast rail connections were nowhere near as high as the proponents of those lines claimed. Meanwhile HS2 is a huge blackhole which swallows up the countries rail investment.
Alright I agree that as far as the north is concerned, it doesn't matter. No chance that London politicians and civil servants will divert HS2 money to Northern transport investment. Neither will the London based media in this country pressure them to do so. The establishment in this country only cares about the south east.
It is however absurd that we are getting a massively expensive line to London, when the East-West connections between the major cities of the north are a slow joke. It would cost a fraction of HS2's budget to upgrade the Hull-Liverpool routes, which cross most of the major population centres of the north. Yet politicians and civil servants in London can't even find the money to electrify the route, let properly upgrade it.
The line is planned to reach Crewe (which is in the North West of England - just!) around 2027. Which will cut journey times to points beyond by c.30 minutes.
Telecommuting as a replacement for actual commuting is always five years in the future
Rephrased:Unclear what Edwardian parts of the railway you're referring to here. In any case HS2 doesn't replace any part of the current railway; it adds to it.
I'm not convinced people would want to pay premium fares to use HS2 anyway. If u asked a passenger in Manchester would they like to pay for arguments sake 80 quid to get to London in 2 and a quarter hours or pay say 120 quid and get there 45 minutes quicker I genuinely believe the vast majority would take the cheaper slightly slower but still fast pendolino.
However if the current wcml is downgraded to all stations class 350s that may tempt some onto HS2 which is what will No doubt happen, but in my view is totally immoral. Telling the customer either, pay more , or your current standard of service will be reduced.
End result is a Prime Minister whose government approves only nine miles of electrification after ten years in office.
Because HS1 (St Pancras to Kent) has a premium ticket price.Why would there need to be a premium applied to ticket prices?
Because HS1 (St Pancras to Kent) has a premium ticket price.
Why would there need to be a premium applied to ticket prices?
"Predicted" by whom ?
Realistically, £56 billion seems about right, perhaps a high-end figure but reasonable, after allowing for inflation. Higher figures, where not scaremongering, are most likely the result of risk management. The government expects HS2 Limited to shoulder all the costs of 'what if it goes wrong', and HS2 Limited are pushing those costs on to their subcontractors. The risk budget can add up to a lot of the project's up-front costs, since the contractors will always pad their estimates in a way that ensures they make a profit.
Telecommuting as a replacement for actual commuting is always five years in the future, just like how hydrogen fuel cells to replace diesel are also five years in the future.
End result is a Prime Minister whose government approves only nine miles of electrification after ten years in office.
Technology has reduced the need for business travel but will never totally replace it. I travel much less for work than I did 10 or 20 years ago but there are still instances when face to face meetings are required.
I'm with you on these upgrades, but with the absence of HS2 when do you think NR can action this electrification? Look at the disruptions, cost and time overruns for the GWML. Would you and others be happy for weekend closure for years to do this? HS2 would give another route, so that these lines could be upgraded.If HS2 does get canned then at a minimum I want to see significant improvements to Sheffield to Leeds (faster and more services), full electrification of the MML, Sheffield to Doncaster electrified, Sheffield to Leeds electrified.
If people had supported HS2 straight off then it would be being built now and benefits would be seen sooner. As it is, we're just delaying and delaying benefits.HS2 is being sold on the news as being for the north and yet I don't see the benefit. The line won't reach the north until 2032, at the earliest and i would be astonished if it isn't simply stopped at Birmingham to save money.
Faster links between Manchester and Birmingham, Leeds and Birmingham? I'm pretty sure (although no expert on TGV) that the double rake of double-deck TGVs does show the benefits of HSR. And as said repeatedly NR is spending record amounts renovating and building new parts of the network, especially looking at upgrading the Manchester - Leeds line (a favourite of the anti-HS2 people).What will the north get from this? Faster links to London? The TGV network shows that the benefits to regional cities from fast rail connections were nowhere near as high as the proponents of those lines claimed. Meanwhile HS2 is a huge blackhole which swallows up the countries rail investment.
Firstly, that's where the greatest concentration of people are so per capita, that would make sense. I agree that jobs should be spread more around the country, but this adds to HS2's case, not detracts. People have to be able to get around the country reliably and quickly. Money has to be prioritised where it will see a return on investment, so that money can be further invested.Alright I agree that as far as the north is concerned, it doesn't matter. No chance that London politicians and civil servants will divert HS2 money to Northern transport investment. Neither will the London based media in this country pressure them to do so. The establishment in this country only cares about the south east.
As said above, NR ARE looking at the transpenine route, see here: https://www.networkrail.co.uk/runni...plan/key-projects/transpennine-route-upgrade/. But how and when do you think the lines can be upgraded? I remember something like 5 years of weekend closures to upgrade it. Would you be happy with this? Surely you can see that it makes sense to build an alternative route first?It is however absurd that we are getting a massively expensive line to London, when the East-West connections between the major cities of the north are a slow joke. It would cost a fraction of HS2's budget to upgrade the Hull-Liverpool routes, which cross most of the major population centres of the north. Yet politicians and civil servants in London can't even find the money to electrify the route, let properly upgrade it.
I think it's an acknowledgement that the major schemes GW & NW were already under way but the Conservatives approved the electrification of 9 miles of the c.13 mile long GOBlin. The other 4 miles were already electrified at Barking to Dorest Gate junction and South Tottenham. Not much of a track record though.Are you talking about Tony Blair (Crewe-Kidsgrove)?
His successor Gordon Brown approved Great Western and North Western electrification (which the Tories then reapproved after review).
Why would it have premium fares?I might be dreaming but I could've sworn I've read HS2 will have premium fares, maybe from a copy of Modern Railways although I wouldn't know which month. I'm fairly certain it was talking about how because of this HS2 won't actually attract people out of cars or away from planes.
I think it's an acknowledgement that the major schemes GW & NW were already under way but the Conservatives approved the electrification of 9 miles of the c.13 mile long GOBlin. The other 4 miles were already electrified at Barking to Dorest Gate junction and South Tottenham. Not much of a track record though.
I don’t think you have, in my experience 99% of the talk of premium fares occurs in forum posts from those anti-HS2.I might be dreaming but I could've sworn I've read HS2 will have premium fares, maybe from a copy of Modern Railways although I wouldn't know which month. I'm fairly certain it was talking about how because of this HS2 won't actually attract people out of cars or away from planes.
I can guarantee that if HS2 is cancelled, the DfT will not see a penny of the money.
Because HS1 (St Pancras to Kent) has a premium ticket price.
I don’t think you have, in my experience 99% of the talk of premium fares occurs in forum posts from those anti-HS2.
And is still massively busy.Because HS1 (St Pancras to Kent) has a premium ticket price.
Not a massive improvement in time really given that it's a minimum of 8 years away (if indeed it ever gets built), by which time even more people will be working from home/away from London. Quite apart from likely train fares being unaffordable for many of the more casual travellers.
I think it's an acknowledgement that the major schemes GW & NW were already under way but the Conservatives approved the electrification of 9 miles of the c.13 mile long GOBlin. The other 4 miles were already electrified at Barking to Dorest Gate junction and South Tottenham. Not much of a track record though.
I don’t think you have, in my experience 99% of the talk of premium fares occurs in forum posts from those anti-HS2.