Govia get Thameslink Franchise

[infobleep]

I don't think they have any intentions of building a platform 8 at Gatwick. I would have thought an island platform might have been useful. It appears there is just 1 platform for fast trains heading north from South of Gatwick, yet 2-3 in the opposite direction. For example trains heading south towards Haywards Heath seem to either use platform 5 or 7. Those heading north seem to use platform 4 only. May be some early morning ones use other platforms such as platform 3.

 

[Yabbadabba]

I don't think they have any intentions of building a platform 8 at Gatwick. I would have thought an island platform might have been useful. It appears there is just 1 platform for fast trains heading north from South of Gatwick, yet 2-3 in the opposite direction. For example trains heading south towards Haywards Heath seem to either use platform 5 or 7. Those heading north seem to use platform 4 only. May be some early morning ones use other platforms such as platform 3.

The main pattern.
Platform 1 UP Mid Sussex (Arun Valley)
Platform 2 FGW Reading
Platform 3 Down Mid Sussex (Arun Valley)
Platform 4 Up Brighton Main Line
Platform 5 Gatwick Express (although it's is the down main line and the fastest route)
Platform 6 Gatwick Express
Platform 7 Down Brighton Main Line

 

[cle]

They should extend more Gatwick Expresses southwards so that they only need occupy one platform.

 

[TEW]

They are. One of the announcements with the new franchise is that 2 Gatwick Express services will run to Brighton each hour in Off-Peak periods.

 

[infobleep]

The main pattern.
Platform 1 UP Mid Sussex (Arun Valley)
Platform 2 FGW Reading
Platform 3 Down Mid Sussex (Arun Valley)
Platform 4 Up Brighton Main Line
Platform 5 Gatwick Express (although it's is the down main line and the fastest route)
Platform 6 Gatwick Express
Platform 7 Down Brighton Main Line

That might be the main pattern but during the evening rush hour the 17.27 from London Victoria to Ore stops at platform 5 and not platform 7. I don't see any services in the height of the morning peak stopping at platform 3. In fact the 7.41 from Haywards Heath to Victoria has to slow down and sometimes wait outside Gatwick because there is a Gatwick Express sat on platform 4 heading north. 7.41 is non stop to East Croydon. Given the speed of it, I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't lose any time by stopping Three Bridges.

 

[Yabbadabba]

That might be the main pattern but during the evening rush hour the 17.27 from London Victoria to Ore stops at platform 5 and not platform 7. I don't see any services in the height of the morning peak stopping at platform 3. In fact the 7.41 from Haywards Heath to Victoria has to slow down and sometimes wait outside Gatwick because there is a Gatwick Express sat on platform 4 heading north. 7.41 is non stop to East Croydon. Given the speed of it, I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't lose any time by stopping Three Bridges.

Are you talking up fast to platform 3?

 

[cle]

They are. One of the announcements with the new franchise is that 2 Gatwick Express services will run to Brighton each hour in Off-Peak periods.

Will they take the place of the Victoria - Brighton expresses?

If so, any indications on what would be used for those 2tph paths?

 

[JonathanH]

Will they take the place of the Victoria - Brighton expresses?

If so, any indications on what would be used for those 2tph paths?

Arun Valley trains, one would suspect, leaving xx06 / xx36 from Victoria and picking up their existing paths south of Gatwick. Same in the up direction. Leaves xx02 / xx32 free for Redhill / Tonbridge / Reigate.

Timings would appear to fit quite nicely.

 

[infobleep]

Are you talking up fast to platform 3?

Yes. Just like fast down to platform 5 and I'm only talking about trains from the Brighton mainline as those are the ones using platform 5 and 7 during the height of the evening peak rush hour.

 

[Stats]

Will they take the place of the Victoria - Brighton expresses?

If so, any indications on what would be used for those 2tph paths?

I understand that off-peak Eastbourne services will no longer portion work with Littlehampton services so they'll need additional paths to work them separately.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes. Just like fast down to platform 5 and I'm only talking about trains from the Brighton mainline as those are the ones using platform 5 and 7 during the height of the evening peak rush hour.

In my experience any need to keep Platform 4 clear for through fasts results in Up Fasts being re-platformed in to Platform 5.

 

[Bald Rick]

I understand that off-peak Eastbourne services will no longer portion work with Littlehampton services so they'll need additional paths to work them separately.

Not correct. The paths freed will be taken by the Arun valley trains. There is also an extra Vic - Brighton semi fast to squeeze in (added to the existing, making 2).

AIUI, beyond Gatwick there will be the following off peak, all using the quarry lines:

2 Vic - Brighton (express extensions of Gatwick Express)
2 Vic - Brighton (various stations, alternating)
2 LBG - Brighton (principal stations)
2 Bedford - Brighton (all stations south of Gatwick, I think)
2 East/West coastway, splitting Haywards Heath
2 Arun Valley

 

[infobleep]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In my experience any need to keep Platform 4 clear for through fasts results in Up Fasts being re-platformed in to Platform 5.

If that is the case, why does the 7. 47
Gatwick Airport [from Brighton] to London Victoria use platform 4. It causes the not stopping service from Littlehampton to run slow. Perhaps there is no room for it to overtake and run ahead into East Croydon, given the Victoria service runs non stop to Victoria after Gatwick. However it does highlight how trains can still be constrained at Gatwick by using 1 platform heading north.


http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/GTW/2014/07/04/0745-0800?stp=WVSC&show=all&order=wtt

 

[Minstral25]

The 12 coach stabling at Redhill is what used to the old up Tonbridge goods loop, not as yet commissioned yet.

Reigate's siding is used at the moment for a booked move to get a Southern service out of the way to allow a FGW service to pass through. So any plans if there are indeed any for Reigate should include a siding even if it's only used for perturbation.

No signalling plans have been released for Redhill yet, so we will have to wait to see if there is to be any flexibility built into the new layout or is going to be the same layout with just an extra platform bolted onto it in the same way Gatwick platform 7 was.

Thanks for the information.

My crayonista point on Reigate was to convert the siding to a platform (preferably for 12 coaches) then all trains terminating at Reigate could use it avoiding the need to reverse trains out of the platform for FGW services to pass.

 

[paul1609]

Ideal solution to my mind would be to extend electrification to Dorking Deepdene with a turn back siding just beyond there. There would be a huge take up from day 1 of a Dorking-Redhill-Croydon service.

 

[Class 170101]

Ideal solution to my mind would be to extend electrification to Dorking Deepdene with a turn back siding just beyond there. There would be a huge take up from day 1 of a Dorking-Redhill-Croydon service.

Just do it properly and extend the 3rd Rail through to Guildford and Wokingham.:roll:

 

[al.currie93]

Ideal solution to my mind would be to extend electrification to Dorking Deepdene with a turn back siding just beyond there. There would be a huge take up from day 1 of a Dorking-Redhill-Croydon service.

Electrify or not, I'm not so sure about such a service. If it meant a faster route to London Victoria (which it probably would, the current Southern route to Vicky is PAINSTAKING) or even to Bridge, then I can see it attracting passengers, but it would probably kill the existing Southern service.

However if it didn't provide a faster route, I can't see it working; the only real extra destination would be Croydon and I don't really know of anyone in Dorking who would go there, especially when Guildford is closer and a nicer town.

The stations in Dorking are generally a complete mess (3 stations, all on the outskirts of the town even though one railways practically runs through the town centre, 2 different lines and no line-connection between them) and ideally need complete relocation...

 

[infobleep]

Electrify or not, I'm not so sure about such a service. If it meant a faster route to London Victoria (which it probably would, the current Southern route to Vicky is PAINSTAKING) or even to Bridge, then I can see it attracting passengers, but it would probably kill the existing Southern service.

However if it didn't provide a faster route, I can't see it working; the only real extra destination would be Croydon and I don't really know of anyone in Dorking who would go there, especially when Guildford is closer and a nicer town.

The stations in Dorking are generally a complete mess (3 stations, all on the outskirts of the town even though one railways practically runs through the town centre, 2 different lines and no line-connection between them) and ideally need complete relocation...

There use to be a connection between the lines but it got removed. At Dorking Deepdene they tell disabled passengers that there is step free access at Dorking West. What they don't tell them is that the level of service there isn't great, especially on Sundays when the trains are only every 2 hours. if Dorking station was closer to Dorking West, I think that station would see the greater number of services.

It's also interesting that Dorking still has three stations. In many towns they lost most of their multiple stations, to be left with one or two.

 

[Minstral25]

Ideal solution to my mind would be to extend electrification to Dorking Deepdene with a turn back siding just beyond there. There would be a huge take up from day 1 of a Dorking-Redhill-Croydon service.

Dorking Deepdene is on an embankment, better to use Dorking West as there are some fields that could be taken over. Unlikely to happen unless whole line to Guildford is done.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Arun Valley trains, one would suspect, leaving xx06 / xx36 from Victoria and picking up their existing paths south of Gatwick. Same in the up direction. Leaves xx02 / xx32 free for Redhill / Tonbridge / Reigate.

Timings would appear to fit quite nicely.

They are about to recast the whole BML for the London Bridge (Dec 2014/5) then Thameslink (2018) works, so it is unlikely that current timings will remain.

Even so the xx:02/32 are the busiest trains for ECR (due to timing gap at 9 mins being the largest off peak from the xx:53) so the 4 coach services to Reigate/Tonbridge are unlikely to be good at that time. Perhaps Arun Valley will stay where they are with Reigate/Tonbridge following at xx:06/36.

 

[Yabbadabba]

Yes. Just like fast down to platform 5 and I'm only talking about trains from the Brighton mainline as those are the ones using platform 5 and 7 during the height of the evening peak rush hour.

The problem with platform 3 although signalled bi-directionally it is the down slow platform and to get to it you 1st have to go up fast to up slow at Tinsley Green Junction thus getting in the way of the down slow and up slow traffic 2nd you need to go from up slow to down slow (platform 3) getting in the way of down slow traffic for a second time. Then you can be signalled out to re-join the up fast. It's all slow moves and only one used as a get out of jail free card in the time of disruption.

 

[bicbasher]

With the Tonbridge and Reigate services diverted to Victoria, how with the 6tph fasts to London Bridge be maintained at Norwood Junction?

 

[JonathanH]

Dorking Deepdene is on an embankment, better to use Dorking West as there are some fields that could be taken over. Unlikely to happen unless whole line to Guildford is done.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


They are about to recast the whole BML for the London Bridge (Dec 2014/5) then Thameslink (2018) works, so it is unlikely that current timings will remain.

Even so the xx:02/32 are the busiest trains for ECR (due to timing gap at 9 mins being the largest off peak from the xx:53) so the 4 coach services to Reigate/Tonbridge are unlikely to be good at that time. Perhaps Arun Valley will stay where they are with Reigate/Tonbridge following at xx:06/36.

The problem with that is matching paths further down the line. It would be reasonable to imagine that there isn't going to be a recast at Portsmouth or Southampton unless you could swap the paths between Victoria and Brighton services to those destinations. Similarly, you might not expect a recast of First Great Western North Downs line services at this stage. Consequently, the xx06/xx06 path works well for Arun Valley.

 

[physics34]

off topic a bit here lads. I keep coming back to this thread expecting to see news about the new franchise.

 

[Minstral25]

The problem with that is matching paths further down the line. It would be reasonable to imagine that there isn't going to be a recast at Portsmouth or Southampton unless you could swap the paths between Victoria and Brighton services to those destinations. Similarly, you might not expect a recast of First Great Western North Downs line services at this stage. Consequently, the xx06/xx06 path works well for Arun Valley.

But also up the line as they will need to link the new times to Bedford via Elephant and Castle in 2015, then later ECML to Peterborough and Cambridge etc. in 2018 .

The Arun Valley line times will also need to change because of the re-signalling along the Arun Valley will mean trains can operate closer together and faster.

You may be right initially but I believe there will be progressive changes each year through to late 2018 when the full Thameslink comes into action.

 

[Abpj17]

It's also interesting that Dorking still has three stations. In many towns they lost most of their multiple stations, to be left with one or two.

Luton has three still (perhaps justified by the airport, awful road traffic conditions, and that neighbouring Dunstable is one of the larger towns without a rail station)

 

[petersi]

This site Has slightly more info.
Plus route specific PDF's (great Northern)
Confirms Cambridge is getting class 377
in 2016 great northern will loose class 317 and 321.
Lists station that will be manned form first to last train
Not all good news certain stations will get a gate line Alexandra Palace,
Enfield Chase, Gordon Hill, Hornsey, New Barnet, Palmers
Green, Winchmore Hill

Oyster to be extended to WGC

 

[Saint66]

On that site it has the St Albans upgrade (My home station) beginning in the 3rd quarter of 2016... That's pretty soon! Interestingly, it hasn't been mentioned at all by the local papers and press... I don't think anyone has any idea that there are plans afoot.

 

[bicbasher]

From that site.

4tph between Purley and Caterham on Mon-Sat evenings. Presumably an extension of the current Victoria service in addition to the London Bridge stoppers via Forest Hill.

An additional 2tph in the peaks between Wimbledon and London Bridge via Peckham Rye.

Gatelines to be introduced at the following Metro and Thameslink stations within South London: Caterham, East Dulwich, Elephant and Castle, Loughborough Junction, Queens Road Peckham, Sanderstead, Tooting and Wandsworth Common.

It'll be interesting to see how gatelines will work at East Dulwich as it's a narrow route to the platforms and ticket office.

 

[leaffall]

What does Brighton mainline re-casting mean?

 

[physics34]

 

[Bald Rick]

On that site it has the St Albans upgrade (My home station) beginning in the 3rd quarter of 2016... That's pretty soon! Interestingly, it hasn't been mentioned at all by the local papers and press... I don't think anyone has any idea that there are plans afoot.

That's because the plans are no more than this:

'Station redevelopment'