Graffiti Etched Windows?

[WestCoast]

Something that occurred to me today is that here in the UK, there is (thankfully) little evidence of graffiti scratched windows. This seems to be a massive problem in continental Europe, I have been on trains where virtually every window is like this. Some of the double decker stock in the Netherlands is terrible for this.

I have seen limited amounts on LU, but very little on NR.

Is it just not a problem or is there a swift removal operation at depots?

 

[yorksrob]

I certainly remember it used to be a problem in the late 90's early noughties. I believe they use an invisible toughened film on the windows which can be replaced when etched thankfully.

 

[driver9000]

I remember years ago, a company created a clear vinyl sheet that was applied to the window glass so that when the etcher came along all they actually etched was the vinyl rather than the expensive glass. Some operators took this idea up and fitted their windows with it (North Western was one) and it is still applied to the windows today. I'm sure LUL are another user of the vinyl too. London Buses seem to suffer from etching quite badly and I have noticed an increase on the mainline too in the last year or so but to the stage where it's endemic through the network. I expect it would be more prevalent around London.

 

[strange6]

Something that occurred to me today is that here in the UK, there is (thankfully) little evidence of graffiti scratched windows. This seems a massive problem in continental Europe, I have been on trains where virtually every window is like this. Some of the double decker stock in the Netherlands is terrible for this.

I have seen limited amounts on LU, but very little on NR.

Is it just not a problem or is there a swift removal operation at depots?

I would imagine, scratched windows would be unrepairable bar the use of Hydrofluoric Acid (HF) which is a very, very nasty acid that attacks glass (stored in plastic bottles). I suppose the bigger problem for people like Northern (and this is very common on their trains, particularly 156's in my experience) are the obscenties stenciled in the rear of plastic seats. It makes the train look very ugly indeed
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I certainly remember it used to be a problem in the late 90's early noughties. I believe they use an invisible toughened film on the windows which can be replaced when etched thankfully.

Well, you learn something new every day!

 

[WestCoast]

I suppose the bigger problem for people like Northern (and this is very common on their trains, particularly 156's in my experience) are the obscenties stenciled in the rear of plastic seats.

You have seen the comments on the back of the green seated 156s?

I have seen it on buses a lot, but the worst I have seen was a new NS intercity train with every single window badly etched!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To be honest I think it's the worst form of graffiti.

 

[jon0844]

They don't replace the film often enough, but I must admit I rarely see etched glass now (bar some tube trains). On the trains, they're generally quite clean - from etching and graffiti.

 

[O L Leigh]

I wouldn't say that NR is clear of it. We have a fair bit on a number of our units.

O L Leigh

 

[WestCoast]

I wouldn't say that NR is clear of it. We have a fair bit on a number of our units.

No I can imagine it's still quite prevalent on certain TOCs. Do all TOCs apply the film to the windows?

 

[BrummyBoy]

the buses are the worst for etched windows, only trains i mainly see etched windows on are usually commuter services.

 

[samj1]

South Eastern 465s used to be awful for this, as well as Southern 456s.

Also as mentioned, the Northern 156s look tatty when they have etched tables and back of seats.

 

[W-on-Sea]

Yes, sacrificial film has more or less solved the problem (or at any rates reduced it to more manageable levels) in most places in the UK, compared with how it was a few years back.

5 or 6 years ago pretty much every bus out of London Central's Bexleyheath garage (and from some of the other operators in that part of outer South-East London) looked like this
http://www.flickr.com/photos/yersinia/398104143/
(not a notably extreme example). Thankfully that is no longer the case - although it's not just the film, it's CCTV and (in that area) targeted campaigns with police and schools too.

Still see it occasionally on some tube trains, and some suburban trains around London, though. But in general we seem to be more "zero tolerance" towards graffiti in most bits of the UK now, compared both with what was the case 20 years or more ago here, or is the case now in much of continental Europe.

 

[TDK]

The Southern 455's used have a serious problem but since CCTV was installed it seems to have almost prevented it happening.

 

[O L Leigh]

No I can imagine it's still quite prevalent on certain TOCs. Do all TOCs apply the film to the windows?

The problem comes when you have lots of windows to treat. With 61 Cl315s, 60 Cl317s, 96 Cl321s and 21 Cl360s (not to mention the 30 Cl379s on the way from Derby), all of which are 4 cars in length, that's a sod of a lot of windows for one depot to have to deal with on top of the usual maintenance regime.

O L Leigh

 

[cj_1985]

it is thankfully not as common as it once was...
and the TOCs and the maintenance staff deserve a lot of thanks and respect for the work they have done installing/fitting these "sheets" onto the glass to help reduce or cut out the etching on windows... certainly improves the look of the traisn from the inside as well as from the outside, and makes it slightly more "comfortable" (if you understand my meaning) when traveling on units that previously had etchings/scores/offensive words/images etc on windoes and panels

 

[route101]

see v little etching on FSR trains but a fair bit on First Glasgow buses . Why is it more common in Europe?

 

[Urban Gateline]

On SWT you still see the odd bits of etching mainly on 455's and sometimes on 450's, hardly ever on 444's and I'm not sure about 158/159's.

It seems to have definitely helped with CCTV onboard and that protective film.

 

[pendolino]

The Southern 455's used have a serious problem but since CCTV was installed it seems to have almost prevented it happening.

They don't seem too bad these days, although there's at least one unit with graffiti scratched on the inside of the cab window on the secondman's side.

 

[Yew]

The solution is to make trains nice. Look at EMT. Do you see graffiti on the nice new 158's? No because its a nice place to be, so hence people dont damage it. However In a few years the Half a**ed job that has been done on the 156/153 fleet will be covered in graffiti, as its not nice, and the chapman seats dont fit with the rest of the interior of the train.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Some years ago there seemed to be hardly a OPO double decker in London that didn't have it's top deck windows practically opaque with etching. These days though you hardly see it at all. I imagine the fitting of CCTV has had a big effect. Unlike graffiti or damage to seat backs and slashing of seats that can be done discreatly, etching can't. The likes of Birmingham and Glasgow tend to still suffer as the don't have as much CCTV. I expect the same is true of the trains, although I can never remember it being a bit problem on trains, not like the buses.

 

[WestCoast]

Why is it more common in Europe?

Lack of protective film probably plays a big part in it, but you still the only really see the etchings on regional trains. A lot of trains run empty in quieter periods.

Having said that, it's a massive problem on the upper deck of buses in the UK, as other posts have mentioned.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Some years ago there seemed to be hardly a OPO double decker in London that didn't have it's top deck windows practically opaque with etching. These days though you hardly see it at all. I imagine the fitting of CCTV has had a big effect

Some bus companies just can't afford to remove it, London I think has initiatives for prevention and removal, although you still see it.

 

[jon0844]

Perhaps the reduction now is a result of having effectively protected against it before (film) and changing it quickly when attacked.

If your 'work' disappears within days, and there's a chance of being spotted on CCTV, you've lost a lot of the incentive.

 

[All Line Rover]

Yobs who vandalise trains really annoy me! A lot!

Part of our fares goes to removing the "works" of such idiots!!!

It seems to be a big problem on the London Underground; less so on National Rail. (Although I don't know the reasons why, I guess that more people live near to the train depots in London)

I will not swear, but I hope I don't see anyone doing it, otherwise they will get a big punch in the face!

 

[transmanche]

London I think has initiatives for prevention and removal, although you still see it.

IIRC, TfL have paid for extra police officers - not only to patrol buses as a deterrent, but also to use the CCTV evidence to track down and prosecute vandals.

I also have a vague notion that removal of graffiti was one of the performance measures under the various tube PPP contracts.

 

[142094]

Apparently one of the newer ways of etching is to fill a bingo dabber with soem sort of acid (battery acid normally I've been told), which is becoming a problem on the Continent and warnings have been put around in the UK. Nasty for staff who find one and could injure themselves picking it up.

 

[jon0844]

On tube trains, etching seems more common (presumably as it's not easy to get rid of, like replacing film) on door panels and other things that have been painted. It must be easy to do this with anything that's vaguely sharp. Stickers are also easily scratched.

 

[strange6]

Apparently one of the newer ways of etching is to fill a bingo dabber with soem sort of acid (battery acid normally I've been told), which is becoming a problem on the Continent and warnings have been put around in the UK. Nasty for staff who find one and could injure themselves picking it up.

Sulphuric acid will not etch a window. There is only one acid that will do the job and that's Hydrofluoric acid (HF) Very nasty stuff. Get it on your skin and you'll be in serious danger

 

[obrut165]

FGW all the units have etched windows or panels by one certain individual!! really winds me up and he should be caught and dealt with!!!!!!

 

[142094]

Sulphuric acid will not etch a window. There is only one acid that will do the job and that's Hydrofluoric acid (HF) Very nasty stuff. Get it on your skin and you'll be in serious danger

Had a feeling it might be Hydrofluoric acid, must be something else they're using battery acid for.

One other thing they were doing was putting razor blades behind stickers, so staff removing them could get cut if they weren't wearing thick gloves.

 

[Ivo]

I've never even heard of HF. What is its pH? 0.1?

 

[strange6]

I've never even heard of HF. What is its pH? 0.1?

In Chemistry terms, it's quite a weak acid because it will hold onto its proton much more than the other mineral acids (eg Hydrochloric acid, HCl). This is due to the electronegativity of the H-F bond (Fluorine is the most electronegative element of them all). A strong acid in chemical terms will dissociate into its components readily, thus releasing free protons (H+) Because the Fluorine is so electronegative, it will make the H-F bond so much stronger and therefore prevent the breaking of this bond and thus the formation of H+ ions in solution (which is what defines an acid in chemical terms)
However, in terms of corrosiveness, there is no more corrosive acid out there. Get it on your skin and not only will you burn and blister quickly, but it will go straight for the calcium in your bones and may cause cardiac arrest in sufficient quantities. It's ability to attack glass is well known and that's why it's always stored in PTFE bottles
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've never even heard of HF. What is its pH? 0.1?

Would be more than that. remember that pH is not a measure of the corrosiveness of an acid The pH is only a measure of the free protons within a solution i.e the lower the pH, the more readily dissociated is the acid. I could go into the maths and chemistry of it but I wouldn't want to bore you with it! hahaha i would probably send myself to sleep and it has been a while since I have done this stuff