Graffiti on trains

[al78]

I live in a country where railway staff is constantly physically assaulted, where buses are deliberately burnt down and where stones are thrown at bus and train windows, where some areas have a 98 % rate of fare evasion, areas where ticket inspectors can’t go without a dozen transport police officers escorting them for fear of getting physically assaulted.
So excuse me if I believe a little paint on a train is the least of our worries.

Have you heard of the broken window effect?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory

"The broken windows theory is a criminological theory that visible signs of crime, anti-social behavior, and civil disorder create an urban environment that encourages further crime and disorder, including serious crimes. The theory thus suggests that policing methods that target minor crimes such as vandalism, public drinking, and fare evasion help to create an atmosphere of order and lawfulness, thereby preventing more serious crimes."

This was recognised in New York in the 1990's, The crime rate dropped massively when major efforts to tackle lesser crimes were implemented.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/broken-windows-theory

 

[HowardGWR]

Some of the graffiti criminals turned out to be in their thirties and certainly not with 'criminal classes' background. For one thing, those plasterings on coaches will have cost the criminal large sums, as paint is expensive. I don't see their crimes as any lessened by that fact, any more or less than middle class fare dodgers or crooked booking office staff, etc. A few ten thousand pound fines might well deter those types.
I will agree that crimes of intimidation and violence are of a different order and earn the much higher punishments. Clearly, much higher levels of security are needed at depots and overnight sidings.

 

[krus_aragon]

Some of the graffiti criminals turned out to be in their thirties and certainly not with 'criminal classes' background.

One example was recently discussed on the BBC's Digital Human episoda about appearing "average": see here or download the program

 

[BBF3]

Whilst I don't disagree that there's a thuggish element involved in graffiti - witness the recent attack on a stationary train and even a passenger in Germany by FC Magdeburg football hoolies - in my experience most involved are smalltown/suburban stoners and skateboarders from average homes who desperately wish they were deprived inner-city kids. Many of them move to the bigger cities once they're old enough to live out that dream.

Does seem to be a spike at the moment. In my part of the world, a group from Taunton (with their own Facebook page!) seem to have become quite active and inspired lots of utterly dismal copycats. Seems like every other week I go and see some fresh scribble somewhere lineside. I would have thought just seeing how bad they are in the cold light of day would be enough of a deterrent, but it actually seems to encourage thesee clowns...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Whilst I don't disagree that there's a thuggish element involved in graffiti - witness the recent attack on a stationary train and even a passenger in Germany by FC Magdeburg football hoolies - in my experience most involved are smalltown/suburban stoners and skateboarders from average homes who desperately wish they were deprived inner-city kids. Many of them move to the bigger cities once they're old enough to live out that dream.

Does seem to be a spike at the moment. In my part of the world, a group from Taunton (with their own Facebook page!) seem to have become quite active and inspired lots of utterly dismal copycats. Seems like every other week I go and see some fresh scribble somewhere lineside. I would have thought just seeing how bad they are in the cold light of day would be enough of a deterrent, but it actually seems to encourage thesee clowns...

Though the football hoolies themselves are often well-to-do individuals (with the cost of tickets, they have to be!). The notorious West Ham United and Chelsea groups in the 1980s were largely lawyers and merchant bankers, Patrick Bateman types.

 

[furnessvale]

I for one think that it looks pretty cool lol

I think it would look even cooler on the side of YOUR house or car!

 

[Twotwo]

I think it would look even cooler on the side of YOUR house or car!

That sounds great! Do you know anyone who can do it?

 

[furnessvale]

That sounds great! Do you know anyone who can do it?

Twenty plus years ago I managed to arrange accommodation at Her Majesty's Pleasure for a number of such people. Sadly, we seem to have lost touch or I would gladly have given them your address!

 

[Twotwo]

Twenty plus years ago I managed to arrange accommodation at Her Majesty's Pleasure for a number of such people. Sadly, we seem to have lost touch or I would gladly have given them your address!

So in essence that's a no? That's a shame.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

One example was recently discussed on the BBC's Digital Human episoda about appearing "average": see here or download the program

Well we got some arrests at Bletchley from "artists" who were domiciled in well heeled South West London , (pleased to say they got nicely treated in the railway's favour by the Magistrates - they followed on a "rave" in BY - which was often a real problem on a Sunday morning when out of their heads , they seemed to think that free rail transport home was part of the package - not so ..) , - the vandals at Rickmansworth (LUL) , were from the nicest part of Metroland , not the tough streets of say Latimer Road.

My own staff's success in nicking some schoolkids on the Bakerloo line , internally tagging a 72 stock were private school kids - who were walked round to Queens Park nick and ensured due process followed.

 

[WA_Driver]

Waterloo this morning

 

[61653 HTAFC]

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Waterloo this morning

That's some good work, just a shame about the choice of canvas!

 

[Twotwo]

That's some good work, just a shame about the choice of canvas!

Careful. People here would think you are encouraging that behaviour or agree with it by simply stating 'its good work' !

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Careful. People here would think you are encouraging that behaviour or agree with it by simply stating 'its good work' !

I know, I know... hopefully I've made it clear enough that I'm not actually condoning illegal activity (and if I was, it would have zero impact on whether that activity takes place or not!).

 

[TRAX]

That's some good work, just a shame about the choice of canvas!

My thoughts exactly. These guys would be making a hell of a lot of money if they did their work in a legal way in order to sell it (millions) afterwards - but that’s indeed not the point of it all !

 

[tsr]

I live in a country where railway staff is constantly physically assaulted, where buses are deliberately burnt down and where stones are thrown at bus and train windows, where some areas have a 98 % rate of fare evasion, areas where ticket inspectors can’t go without a dozen transport police officers escorting them for fear of getting physically assaulted.
So excuse me if I believe a little paint on a train is the least of our worries.

It may be the least of your worries, but I'd bet that the graffiti criminals are also responsible for some of the other crimes you mention above

Not at all. Two different species.

I happen to work on some bits of railway in the UK where ticket checks are presently encountering near-enough 100% fare evasion at times, and special revenue blocks are occasionally accompanied by the odd police riot van on standby, depending on how tough the local police force needs to be. On one recent occasion a local character had to be restrained by about 6 officers of various flavours after attempting to escape a BTP ticket checking exercise by vaulting a ticket machine. (This sort of thing is not even always readily apparent given the allegedly genteel areas concerned, and certainly not that obvious to the average commuter, but "after hours" and off-peak is a different story entirely.)

I can tell you with 100% certainty that I back up the previous comments about the "broken windows" theory - that little things such as marker pen tagging often spiral out of control quite quickly. Likewise opportunistic fare evasion, littering, antisocial cycling and so on. Unfortunately experience of those involved with such behaviours has shown that tags then become widespread, station buildings get defaced, things get set on fire and - you name it really! Passengers then don't want to travel off-peak, individual staff working alone will not approach the miscreants, and it all goes very badly wrong.

If you’ve ever been to New York or similar then every white van or box lorry seems to be heavily vandalised. I’ve seen it infrequently in Britain but you’re right it isn’t a regular sight.

It's becoming more of a problem in certain areas of the country. Inner South London for one. Still a fairly rare event, though. "Keying" cars also seems to be marginally on the wane.

 

[GrimShady]

I may get banned for this but....

The so called “graffiti artists” if caught, should be made to clean up their mess at their own expense. Not having enough money or unable to do it, should be taken has point blank refusal to do the work.

Their mugshot must, by law, be posted to everybody they live by up to a five mile radius. This will also be paid by them. Not having enough money...has above.

Any repeat offence....chop hands off. Not able to work, then starve. No benefits....they cannot sign their name.

I for one, am fed up of these criminals being branded has some sort of hero.

This!

 

[philthetube]

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Waterloo this morning

Posting pics like this is just what the vandals want, I thin it should be against forum rules to promote criminal activity.

 

[WA_Driver]

Posting pics like this is just what the vandals want, I thin it should be against forum rules to promote criminal activity.

The post is about Graffiti on Trains....so therefore I posted graffiti on a train. I very much doubt “vandals” scroll through railway forums to see if there “artwork” has been posted

 

[Mark J]

Looking at some of the image it begs the question....why aren't depots more like fortresses?

It is well known that some idiots trespass on the Railways (usually in the dark of night) to create "art". Therefore with millions of pounds worth of rolling stock sitting around in the dark, why aren't depots surrounded by tall metal fencing and automatic entrance/exit barriers. This would prevent an awful lot of vandalism from occurring to rolling stock. Also do these Depots not have security? I can't see how this can occur if one or more security guards are supposed to be walking around keeping an eye on things.

For example Reading TCD, there is no security fencing between the main line and the depot. If someone wanted to gain access (crossing the tracks at night), it would be pretty easy to do so.

 

[furnessvale]

The post is about Graffiti on Trains....so therefore I posted graffiti on a train. I very much doubt “vandals” scroll through railway forums to see if there “artwork” has been posted

Actually, they probably do scroll through this and other forums.

Seeing their "art" on the move is the ultimate accolade. Part of New York's solution to their problem was a refusal, under any circumstances, to move trains in service with graffiti displayed, even if it meant cancellations.

My preferred solution would be large buckets of white emulsion and roller bushes to quickly and crudely cover the work before leaving the depot. A proper repair can be done later. Nothing they hate more than having their work "dissed". Even better to leave the tag exposed then rival writers can see the "dissing".

 

[Mojo]

Looking at some of the image it begs the question....why aren't depots more like fortresses?

I don't know how it is maintained, but is it one of the problems with the structure of the industry; as an infrastructure operator would Network Rail not be responsible for maintaining fencing whereas the Train Operating Companies (Tocs) be responsible for cleaning the vandalism off their trains? I could be wrong here, but it would explain why facilities managed by train manufacturers (eg. Siemens depots in Northampton and Hornsey) are more secure than places like stabling sidings elsewhere.

If you have ever seen a London Underground depot or stabling siding you will see that they are very secure, with high fencing and looped barbed wire. This doesn't stop it of course, LU trains often get vandalised where they are outstabled (usually in platforms overnight) or during turnarounds at terminus stations or reversing sidings.