Grand Central order Hitachi Tri-Modes - confirmed

[Bletchleyite]

Can not believe that hitachi are given a new order ,after the problems with the class 810 being years late.

The 810 has had challenges, but by contrast the fairly standard 805/807 for Avanti have come into service quite quickly and seem to be reliable and popular with passengers with their very pleasant low density interiors and the 5-cars having significantly more capacity than the inefficient layout of a Voyager despite being quite generously spaced and fairly well window aligned.

That said I suppose the battery tri-mode feature is new.

 

[800001]

Can not believe that hitachi are given a new order ,after the problems with the class 810 being years late.

Stadler - 555 and 777 delays
Bombardier/Alstom - 701 and 720 delays.

It is not just a hitachi issue with delays.

 

[zwk500]

The 810 has had challenges, but by contrast the fairly standard 805/807 for Avanti have come into service quite quickly and seem to be reliable and popular with passengers with their very pleasant low density interiors and the 5-cars having significantly more capacity than the inefficient layout of a Voyager despite being quite generously spaced and fairly well window aligned.

That said I suppose the battery tri-mode feature is new.

The battery mode on AT300s has been trialled twice in the UK - on GWR in South Devon and with TPE, so this is the next natural development.

 

[800001]

The 810 has had challenges, but by contrast the fairly standard 805/807 for Avanti have come into service quite quickly and seem to be reliable and popular with passengers with their very pleasant low density interiors and the 5-cars having significantly more capacity than the inefficient layout of a Voyager despite being quite generously spaced and fairly well window aligned.

That said I suppose the battery tri-mode feature is new.

Regards the battery, if it operated as Hitachi say it did on the test trains, then it should be fairly good, if we believe there publicity about it.

The battery mode on AT300s has been trialled twice in the UK - on GWR in South Devon and with TPE, so this is the next natural development.

It has never been trialled on a GWR unit, it has only been trialled on the TPE unit.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Stadler - 720, 555 and 777 delays
Bombardier/Alstom - 701 and 720 delays.
It is not just a hitachi issue with delays.

The practical alternative for a 125mph bi-mode unit was CAF I would have thought, based on the LNER order, but maybe the battery option was not available.

 

[800001]

The practical alternative for a 125mph bi-mode unit was CAF I would have thought, based on the LNER order, but maybe the battery option was not available.

From industry insiders the LNER CAF unit is already running behind…….

 

[DarloRich]

Can not believe that hitachi are given a new order ,after the problems with the class 810 being years late.

UK assembled in a factory that was subject to explicit political support by then would be and now actually are Labour MP's, protecting skilled jobs in a fairly non affluent area that is now in a Faragist target zone plus a local media campaign behind it all?

I think I can see why! I am more surprised CAF got an order for LNER!

EDIT - plus it gives an almost common ECML fleet. GC can hardly afford to take a risk on a new train type.

 

[zwk500]

It has never been trialled on a GWR unit, it has only been trialled on the TPE unit.

Hitachi and Eversholt Rail develop battery for a GWR intercity battery hybrid train trial

Hitachi Rail and Eversholt

www.firstgroupplc.com

Did this never actually happen then?

 

[InTheEastMids]

Fleet to be delivered in 2028

Reader of the Class 810 thread here. Shall we run a sweepstake on what year they will actually enter service?
Question is whether the 180s will last another 3-6 years?

Can not believe that hitachi are given a new order ,after the problems with the class 810 being years late.

I can. GC is too small to take an even higher risk on a new type and it's not like other manufacturers have covered themselves in glory, as others have noted whilst I was writing this.
A key requirement for GC must have been speed of delivery - to drop the 180s more quickly than 180s drop their own components along the track-bed.

learn from everyone else’s mistakes

They can't learn from all of them - unless Hitachi have found a way to provide level boarding on an 80x.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Great... more IET's.

Great news as it helps with operations on the East Coast Main Line not to have a huge mix of different unit types.

 

[800001]

Hitachi and Eversholt Rail develop battery for a GWR intercity battery hybrid train trial

Hitachi Rail and Eversholt

www.firstgroupplc.com

Did this never actually happen then?

No, never happened.

The TPE unit was the first and only time that Hitachi have trialled a battery on a 8XX unit.

 

[Mike Machin]

I think these look better.. just saying..

[Images below show the new IETs with Orange yellow front respectively]

Interesting, but I prefer the simplicity of the black end. I like the simplistic minimalism and for me less is more.

 

[Doomotron]

The orange wrapping around the bottom does give it a bit of the neckbeard look. The orange stripe on the side is quite thick too, but overall there is potential for the livery to work quite well on them with changes.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

Stadler - 720, 555 and 777 delays
Bombardier/Alstom - 701 and 720 delays.

It is not just a hitachi issue with delays.

720s aren't Stadler

 

[Thirteen]

The LNER CAF trains are Class 897 so I wonder if these new Hitachi trains will be Class 812, Class 880 or even the first Class 900 train?

 

[800001]

720s aren't Stadler

It’s obvious I made a mistake as I write 720 underneath!

 

[Snow1964]

Can not believe that hitachi are given a new order ,after the problems with the class 810 being years late.

The 810 is the oddball version, they took a design that works and tried to bodge it changing bits and moving things around. I think something like 70% of it was new, altered, or relocated compared to standard 26m versions.

As with most items, building it bit longer is relatively easy, but making it smaller and trying to cram same amount of equipment is asking for trouble, especially if the original was well packaged.

If anything Hitachi made a bad commercial judgement by accepting a small non-standard order for EMR, rather than knocking out more virtually standard versions as they did with 803, 805, 807 etc.

 

[InOban]

What is the balance between diesel and battery, ie is there just one diesel and the other vehicles have batteries or is the balance more 50/50

 

[Snow1964]

What is the balance between diesel and battery, ie is there just one diesel and the other vehicles have batteries or is the balance more 50/50

Normally 5 car units have 3 power units

Unclear if it will be 2 diesel generators plus battery pack, or 1 diesel plus 2 battery packs or something else.

They are being leased from Angel Trains, so presumably Angel could fit some batteries to other units and transfer diesel units. I am not totally sure but I think by 2028 if diesels are new might need to be to higher emissions standard.

 

[800001]

What is the balance between diesel and battery, ie is there just one diesel and the other vehicles have batteries or is the balance more 50/50

If like the trial unit, it was one engine removed to replace with battery.

So 1 battery and 2 engines for a 5 car.

 

[RailWonderer]

Oh dear, not more dishwater dull IETs.

If anything Hitachi made a bad commercial judgement by accepting a small non-standard order for EMR, rather than knocking out more virtually standard versions as they did with 803, 805, 807 etc.

They still didn't do plug doors like I think EMR wanted.

 

[357]

The 810 is the oddball version, they took a design that works and tried to bodge it changing bits and moving things around. I think something like 70% of it was new, altered, or relocated compared to standard 26m versions.

As with most items, building it bit longer is relatively easy, but making it smaller and trying to cram same amount of equipment is asking for trouble, especially if the original was well packaged.

If anything Hitachi made a bad commercial judgement by accepting a small non-standard order for EMR, rather than knocking out more virtually standard versions as they did with 803, 805, 807 etc.

Alstom have a similar story regarding the SWR fleet!

 

[RailWonderer]

The 810 is the oddball version, they took a design that works and tried to bodge it changing bits and moving things around. I think something like 70% of it was new, altered, or relocated compared to standard 26m versions.

As with most items, building it bit longer is relatively easy, but making it smaller and trying to cram same amount of equipment is asking for trouble, especially if the original was well packaged.

If anything Hitachi made a bad commercial judgement by accepting a small non-standard order for EMR, rather than knocking out more virtually standard versions as they did with 803, 805, 807 etc.

How is it a bad commerical judgment? They get to charge more for a non-standard order and it keeps more people employed for longer. More non-standard orders would be great for them.

 

[800001]

Oh dear, not more dishwater dull IETs.

They still didn't do plug doors like I think EMR wanted.

Hitachi do not do plug door!
They believe sliding doors are what works best.

 

[Sorcerer]

Just when I wasn't expecting more Class 80x trains on the network, Grand Central will now bring us a new tri-mode set, which I believe is a first among the IETs (although it has been a concept floating around for a few years now if I'm not mistaken). The orange is a bit too thick for my liking though, especially around the front, but I do think the black looks very smart, and I am especially font of how they've implemented their logo on the front and sides.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Hitachi do not do plug door!

Point of order/pedantry is that the 385s have plug doors, don't they?

Anyway I agree with the general point that the cost to change to plug doors for a small order makes no sense.

 

[800001]

Point of order/pedantry is that the 385s have plug doors, don't they?

Anyway I agree with the general point that the cost to change to plug doors for a small order makes no sense.

Apologies, for there high speed stock they don’t. (I always forget about 385 as they perform well and never much comment about them).


As they push out to pressurise, which is why they like the sliding door.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As they push out to pressurise, which is why they like the sliding door.

They aren't pressurised. They're pressure sealed, which is more about preventing pressure waves affecting the train as another passes, e.g. in a tunnel. The sliding doors are indeed cammed into a seal above 5km/h, but it's not like an aircraft and it can be done with plug doors - it's noticeable on a Voyager for instance if you're standing by the door.

it's just their preference because it's what Japan always does (the AT300 is basically a tweaking of an existing Japanese design). And I don't really see an issue with it to be honest - the doors are at least quick to open, far quicker than the really sluggish ones on Desiros. Yes, you end up with a door pocket, but that's an ideal place to put a luggage rack anyway (NOT seats!)

 

[43096]

The 810 is the oddball version, they took a design that works

"Works" in the sense that they used the wrong grade of aluminium and that is habitually not meeting the contracted availability targets.

 

[YorkRailFan]

If the Cleethorpes service is approved, this will make (un) coupling sets at Doncaster far easier. Honestly not bothered that it's more IETs, if they run, then they're certainly an upgrade to the current offering. They're also far better for the environment than running 180s under the wires for some 200 miles!

So i think GC could probably reduce their requirement from 7 to 5 by completely rewriting the timetable and cutting the turnaround times.

How do you expect the crews to work this timetable? Unlike LNER etc there aren't hundreds of traincrew to play with.

Depends on their paths for the ECML too!