Grand Central Rover Acceptance

[Jordy]

There were some rumours about this a while back but just had it confirmed by a GC guard on train, they are no longer accepting any rovers except the all line

Don't get caught out!

 

[First class]

At least that information matches up with NRES for once.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/promotions/toc_gc.html

Only the ALR is listed.

 

[theblackwatch]

There were some rumours about this a while back but just had it confirmed by a GC guard on train, they are no longer accepting any rovers except the all line

Don't get caught out!

Any idea about Rangers as well?

 

[4SRKT]

Wot about WY Day Rovers between Bradford and Ponte?

 

[Jordy]

Only ALRs and normal tickets apparently...

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Wot about WY Day Rovers between Bradford and Ponte?

As stated on another thread GC seem to be still accepting these. I suspect it will be a condition laid down by Metro - in the same way they will no doubt have to accept MetroCards etc.

 

[sonic2009]

As stated on another thread GC seem to be still accepting these. I suspect it will be a condition laid down by Metro - in the same way they will no doubt have to accept MetroCards etc.

GC dont except wy train day rovers had an email from wayne at gc customer services about 2 weeks ago

 

[Jordy]

I definately read something about MetroCards being accepted on a local press release at the start of the West Yorks service, but I don't know if this is infact the case.

 

[John @ home]

Wot about WY Day Rovers between Bradford and Ponte?

I last used a WY Metro Adult Train & Bus Day Rover on Grand Central between Bradford and Pontefract on 25 May 2010. It was accepted by the train guard, who seemed familiar with the ticket.

As stated on another thread GC seem to be still accepting these. I suspect it will be a condition laid down by Metro

I agree this is likely to be a condition set by Metro.

GC dont except wy train day rovers had an email from wayne at gc customer services about 2 weeks ago

Can you post the text of the email, please, sonic2009?

I definately read something about MetroCards being accepted on a local press release at the start of the West Yorks service

I think I posted this either here or on uk.railway, but I can't put my finger on it at the moment.

 

[4SRKT]

Well I'm going to try it anyway. It's only £3 anyway from Bradford to Ponte, so not the end of the world if I get asked to pay. This low fare makes me suspect that Metro are supporting this fare anyway, especially given that it's £7.20 from Ponte to Donny.

I need to go on this train because I'm doing a Day Rover with my dad. He's a priv holder and retired privs aren't valid on GC. I've never, ever seen him pay for a full fare train ticket, so it will be a right shock to him to have to fork out even £3. I will be on hand to record the painful event on camera, and am prepared if necessary to pay £3 myself for the pleasure (although clearly it would be even more piquant if I went through on my rover for gratis!).

 

[clagmonster]

If it is the case that Grand Central are refusing rovers, they are in breach of condition 10:
"10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction
or prohibition will be shown on the ticket."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

As far as I am aware, no rovers state 'not Grand Central' or anything to that effect so they must be valid by this condition. Tickets printed on standard orange stock including, as far as I am aware, those issued by Grand Central, state on the back:
"Travel is subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage."
The West Yorkshire ticket stock states:
"In respect of rail travel, it is issued subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage".

Grand Central also appear in the list of train operating companies in appendix C, and the Grand Central website states:
"All tickets and travel are subject to National Rail Conditions of Carriage."
http://www.grandcentralrail.com/fares-policy.html

 

[Solent&Wessex]

GC dont except wy train day rovers had an email from wayne at gc customer services about 2 weeks ago

As I have said elsewhere, when I was on a GC train at Wakefield the other week the Metro Data Collectors boarded the train and checked all tickets. These folk work for Metro and collect data on bus and train usage to help ensure, amongst other things, that the usage of Metro tickets is accurately related to the subsidy paid to operators. Thus, that would imply to me that all Metro tickets are valid.

For local West Yorkshire Journeys there are no "GC only" fares - only the "Any Permitted" fares - thus I can't see how they can refuse any such ticket in West Yorkshire. The Concessionary 50p fares for Bus Pass holders, station issued Metrocards and DayRovers ALL say "Any Permitted" on them, so therefore are valid.

 

[yorkie]

If it is the case that Grand Central are refusing rovers, they are in breach of condition 10:
"10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction
or prohibition will be shown on the ticket."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

As far as I am aware, no rovers state 'not Grand Central' or anything to that effect so they must be valid by this condition. Tickets printed on standard orange stock including, as far as I am aware, those issued by Grand Central, state on the back:
"Travel is subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage."
The West Yorkshire ticket stock states:
"In respect of rail travel, it is issued subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage".

Grand Central also appear in the list of train operating companies in appendix C, and the Grand Central website states:
"All tickets and travel are subject to National Rail Conditions of Carriage."
http://www.grandcentralrail.com/fares-policy.html

Agreed.

And you can be fairly sure that anyone putting this to the test by refusing to pay when holding a Rover, that they wouldn't be prosecuting, because 1) they'd probably lose the case, 2) it would generate negative publicity.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

GC dont except wy train day rovers had an email from wayne at gc customer services about 2 weeks ago

Any chance of revealing the contents of the email? Send a PM if you don't feel comfortable posting it on a public forum.

I don't see how they can refuse to accept them.

GCs fare policy has always been a shambles, but it seems to be getting even worse.

They obviously don't have someone with the experience franchised TOCs have, so why don't they ask the experts here for advice? This would surely be better than blunders like York - London being cheaper than Doncaster - London, the daft "supplement" fares, York - Hartlepool being cheaper on an inter-available ticket, York - Hartlepool being cheaper splitting at Hartlepool, and now these rover blunders.

The GC only fares from York to London are pointless for a day trip. It's cheaper to get inter-available fares valid on many more trains if you get the right ticket combination.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Agreed.

And you can be fairly sure that anyone putting this to the test by refusing to pay when holding a Rover, that they wouldn't be prosecuting, because 1) they'd probably lose the case, 2) it would generate negative publicity.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Any chance of revealing the contents of the email? Send a PM if you don't feel comfortable posting it on a public forum.

I don't see how they can refuse to accept them.

GCs fare policy has always been a shambles, but it seems to be getting even worse.

They obviously don't have someone with the experience franchised TOCs have, so why don't they ask the experts here for advice? This would surely be better than blunders like York - London being cheaper than Doncaster - London, the daft "supplement" fares, York - Hartlepool being cheaper on an inter-available ticket, York - Hartlepool being cheaper splitting at Hartlepool, and now these rover blunders.

The GC only fares from York to London are pointless for a day trip. It's cheaper to get inter-available fares valid on many more trains if you get the right ticket combination.

I have just spoken to a friend of mine who is a GC Guard on the Bradford service. He reports that in West Yorkshire they accept ALL WYPTE tickets in line with their validity, ie Dayrovers after 0930 etc. In his words "they are perfectly valid, as though we were a Northern service". He went on to say that they DO NOT accept any other Rover or Ranger valid in that area such is the Freedom Of North East, or South Pennines for example - with the exception of the All Line Rover.

 

[yorkie]

Are they trained on the NCoC? If so, to what extent?

 

[142094]

I wonder if the Northern Rail leaflets for the South Pennines Day Ranger and any of the others that cover West Yorkshire have been updated to say that they are not valid on GC services? Would be very easy to argue that no-one told you when you bought the ranger and the leaflet doesn't have restrictions on it as well.

As for MetroCards, I would have thought that GC would have went the same way as EC and XC, as MetroCards are only valid on Northern and TPE services.

As for the Tyne and Tees Day Ranger, someone on here had used one before (mentioned in a previous thread) but when I asked I was told it wasn't valid (which goes along with the Northern leaflet).

 

[John @ home]

As for MetroCards, I would have thought that GC would have went the same way as EC and XC, as MetroCards are only valid on Northern and TPE services.

This isn't the case. MetroCards covering the appropriate zones are valid on XC Leeds - Wakefield and on EC Bradford/Skipton/Harrogate - Wakefield. See MetroCard terms and conditions.

They are also valid on GC Bradford - Pontefract.

 

[4SRKT]

This isn't the case. MetroCards covering the appropriate zones are valid on XC Leeds - Wakefield and on EC Bradford/Skipton/Harrogate - Wakefield. See MetroCard terms and conditions.

They are also valid on GC Bradford - Pontefract.

Indeed. Almost all travellers on the frankly ridiculous Skipton > Kings Cross working on the first stage of its journey are commuters from Keighley and Shipley into Leeds, the majority of whom will be on Metrocards.

 

[sonic2009]

Will post up tommoro the email.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Metrocards etc are valid on East Coast, Crosscountry etc for the local journies within West Yorkshire.

The current Metro leaflet re Cross Boundary Bus and Rail travel is unusually incorrect. Normally Metro are quite good at getting stuff correct, however, after it says the normal rule about splitting tickets at non-stopping stations providing one is a season ticket, it then goes on to say "this does not apply to trains operated by East Coast, CrossCountry... ..." etc. which is quite obviously wrong (unless someone knows something I don't.

 

[John @ home]

after it says the normal rule about splitting tickets at non-stopping stations providing one is a season ticket, it then goes on to say "this does not apply to trains operated by East Coast, CrossCountry... ..." etc. which is quite obviously wrong

Agreed, it's wrong. But your version is much more up-to-date than the one made available to the public!

MetroCard Conditions of Use

Where a passenger holds two or more zonal tickets in combination or one is a rail season ticket and one is not, then the train does not need to call at the station where they change from one to the other. (Please note that these combinations of tickets do not apply to non-stopping trains operated by Virgin, GNER and Midland Mainline).

http://www.wymetro.com/TicketsAndPasses/MetroCards/6-WhenYouCanUseYourMetroCard.htm

 

[paul1609]

Metrocards etc are valid on East Coast, Crosscountry etc for the local journies within West Yorkshire.

The current Metro leaflet re Cross Boundary Bus and Rail travel is unusually incorrect. Normally Metro are quite good at getting stuff correct, however, after it says the normal rule about splitting tickets at non-stopping stations providing one is a season ticket, it then goes on to say "this does not apply to trains operated by East Coast, CrossCountry... ..." etc. which is quite obviously wrong (unless someone knows something I don't.

Im not up to speed with Metrocards but if its not a ticket issued under the rail settlement plan East Coast etc are not bound by the terms of the national conditions.

 

[John @ home]

Im not up to speed with Metrocards but if its not a ticket issued under the rail settlement plan East Coast etc are not bound by the terms of the national conditions.

Rail travel using a Metrocard is subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

MetroCard Conditions of Use

Holders of MetroCard are carried on services subject to Metro’s Conditions of Use and the Conditions of Carriage of the operator in question, i.e. the relevant bus company or train operator. In addition passengers are subject to PCV Regulations and local byelaws.

http://www.wymetro.com/TicketsAndPasses/MetroCards/metrocardconditions

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wonder if the Northern Rail leaflets for the South Pennines Day Ranger and any of the others that cover West Yorkshire have been updated to say that they are not valid on GC services?

In my opinion, a necessary precondition for Grand Central validly to begin to refuse this or any other Ranger or Rover on their services is that the restriction shall be shown on the ticket.

National Rail Conditions of Carriage

The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

That change on its own may not be a sufficient condition. For example, as 142094 suggests, it may also be necessary to change the leaflet(s) advertising the particular Ranger or Rover.

 

[clagmonster]

I think the difficulty is that different possible combinations of tickets have been confused, hence the seemingley incorrect wording in the leaflet. The relevent clause of the conditions of carriage states:
"19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include
Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport
executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

In the case of using two Metrocards, both tickets are clearly zonal tickets, so they are valid on trains which do not stop at the zone boundary station unless "unless special conditions prohibit their use". As far as I can see, the only way to interpret "special conditions" is the specific conditions of the ticket, which state that that this is not valid on Virgin, GNER or MML services. As these companies names have now changed, I doubt the condition is enforcable anymore, so the condition should be updated to reflect this.

In the case of a Metrocard and a standard season, I believe that the conditions of carriage allow this to be used on any non-stop train through the changeover station under part (c) as the season is a season ticket and the Metrocard is issued on behalf of Metro so does not count as a season. Hence this part of the Metrocard conditions is incorrect.

 

[cuccir]

I wonder if the Northern Rail leaflets for the South Pennines Day Ranger and any of the others that cover West Yorkshire have been updated to say that they are not valid on GC services? Would be very easy to argue that no-one told you when you bought the ranger and the leaflet doesn't have restrictions on it as well.

That change on its own may not be a sufficient condition. For example, as 142094 suggests, it may also be necessary to change the leaflet(s) advertising the particular Ranger or Rover.

I'd be very surprised if the leaflet didn't contain some small print along the lines of 'All information correct at time of going to press. Services and ticket deals subject to alteration. Please check travel plans before you travel', which would probably cover this aspect.

 

[John @ home]

I'd be very surprised if the leaflet didn't contain some small print along the lines of 'All information correct at time of going to press. Services and ticket deals subject to alteration. Please check travel plans before you travel', which would probably cover this aspect.

The South Pennines Day Ranger leaflet is attached. It does not contain the words expected by cuccir. It does say in bold

VALID ON ALL TRAIN OPERATING COMPANIES’ SERVICES ON THE MAP SHOWN

The map shows validity Bradford Interchange - Halifax - Brighouse - Wakefield Kirkgate. The leaflet also states

Prices and conditions valid until 31 December 2010.

... All information in this leaflet is correct at time of going to print in December 2009

 

[paul1609]

The South Pennines Day Ranger leaflet is attached. It does not contain the words expected by cuccir. It does say in boldThe map shows validity Bradford Interchange - Halifax - Brighouse - Wakefield Kirkgate. The leaflet also states

It does actually have the words expected by cuccir see centre fold bottom.

 

[yorkie]

Anyone up for a South Pennines Day Ranger meet this weekend?

We will then see if GC make the right choices. If not, "see you in court!"

I'm confident they will back down.

 

[John @ home]

It does actually have the words expected by cuccir see centre fold bottom.

cuccir expected the words

Services and ticket deals subject to alteration. Please check travel plans before you travel.

Where do these appear?

Using Adobe Reader to search the leaflet for the word alteration or the phrase travel plans both return the result

Reader has finished searching the document. No matches were found.

 

[brompton rail]

Re West Yorkshire Metro tickets. I think what the restrictions on XC and EC are seeking to explain are that Metro tickets are only valid to the last STOPPING station in West Yorkshire on thses two TOCs trains. Meaning that a passenger cannot buy or use a ticket in South Yorkshire to the boundary at South Elmsall or Moorthorpe and then a West Yorkshire ticket onwards to Wakefield and beyond, using XC or EC. This combination of tickets is only allowed on Northern's stoppers. Therefore to travel on, say EC, daily between Doncaster and Leeds you would need a season (or day returns) Doncaster to Wakefield and a Metrocard Wakefield to Leeds. Mind you this doesn't stop OAPs trying to use their passes on EC or XC trains!