But I do suspect that if the Doncaster stop was removed the service would not be viable. Just like the Sunderlands, if York was not a stop. In other words both these services need the ORCATS raid to survive.
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Grand Central's long waits at Wakefield Kirkgate
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But I do suspect that if the Doncaster stop was removed the service would not be viable. Just like the Sunderlands, if York was not a stop. In other words both these services need the ORCATS raid to survive.
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I generally use Grand Central to London from Pontefract Monkhill and it does tend to get very popular at Doncaster!
However I must say I only really look at them in terms of the outward journey as East Coast offer far better options in terms of a later evening return journey to Wakefield.
However I must say I only really look at them in terms of the outward journey as East Coast offer far better options in terms of a later evening return journey to Wakefield.
berneyarms
Established Member
One train a day in either direction at the extremities of the day?
Hardly a major "inroad"!
It's been what? Just about a month since the service was introduced? A bit early to tell yet surely? Plus as berneyarms indicated one service at each extreme of the day is hardly much of an 'inroad'.
On the other a train every two hours from Bradford to London, without changing, is a rather more significant 'inroad' on GC's patch.
I fear it would be a mistake to be complacent in the face of this competition from VTEC once it arrives on the basis of what has happened with Sunderland so far...
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Probably not, as they are both major traffic destinations in their own right, though with the number of advance and GC Only tickets being used I don't think ORCATS has much to do with it.
I'd agree that GC can't be complacent- if VTEC compete on price and convenience then I'll use them too- but I also do think both can survive. As for Sunderland, the VTEC services may be at the "extremity" of the day but both of them are calculated to compete against GC's two most profitable departures.
Grand Central can survive and I'd be happy for them too. They need to shake up their act though and be more innovative. They need a little bit more investment (No new trains, Arriva? How much faith do you have in this business?) and they need to change the way they're doing things. They can do a good job and there's plenty of evidence of it on the Sunderland route. But if they continue as they are without much change for the next 5 years or so my prediction is that it will be insufficient to keep them afloat. Certainly as far as the West Riding route goes.
wensley
Established Member
We'll see .... Nobody said anything about complacency, but in terms of the Bradford VT services I'd see that as having a limited impact!
How? The journey is almost certainly going to be faster, more frequent and have better protection in the event of disruption (no need to worry about ticket acceptance onto other VTEC services for example). Plus, unless GC step up their game in the meantime, the on board service (in terms of catering) is almost certainly going to be superior on VTEC as well. You'll have the advantage of more VTEC staff available all the time at Kings Cross and Leeds to advise in the event of disruption.
You'll have to forgive me but I do not see how VTEC serving Bradford is going to have a 'limited impact'?
wensley
Established Member
The main flow for GC isn't Bradford!
As they are open access I presume it isn't a question of not being allowed-they can so what they want in terms of ticketing as long as they also accept the standard range. After all, Hull Train accept 'VTEC and connections' tickets (with HT as the connection) between Hull and Doncaster. Whether GC have tried to reach such arrangements with Northern, and whether Northern have been willing to agree-is another question. It's something that may change when both are under Arriva's ownership however.
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But for passengers who have already had to get up early for a journey that could be slightly later, and for passengers needing to get to business meetings in London, the long journey around Yorkshire is very frustrating.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Different demographics have different desires. Business people wanting a pre-9am (or even 10am) arrival in London wouldn't use Grand Central; they'd already be on the one VTEC service a day from Forster Square, which is non-stop from Wakefield Westgate.
I'd much rather the GC was faster, don't get me wrong, but for leisure travel it isn't a deal-breaker. From Halifax the GC and VTEC times are pretty much the same, but GC is direct and- crucially- cheaper.
In terms of on-board offer, I think GC need to up their game in first class: the refurbished first class is very nice, but the complimentary refreshments are stingy. But in standard they're probably a bit better than VTEC currently are: the catering is cheaper and it is better quality (e.g. freshly ground coffee on GC compared to Azera slop on VTEC).
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Yeah; it's Doncaster!
Which was my point above !
wensley
Established Member
I think you'd be surprised! Halifax, Brighouse and Wakefield also have particularly healthy loadings.
I'm not quite sure this point is getting across properly.
For London custom:
Wakefield and Doncaster - duplication. Pretty much wasted track capacity because these places already have a good service.
Pontefract - insignificant and and basically an operational oddity. Or else why not serve there with all trains?
Mirfield and Brighouse - these are very small settlements in themselves. Most of their custom comes from surrounding towns, primarily Huddersfield, which are sizeable but cut off. Once Dewsbury and Huddersfield have faster direct London trains, how many people will still get dropped off at Brighouse or Mirfield to use a slower service?
Bradford - under serious threat from VTEC.
This leaves just Halifax (and Low Moor, if it opens and you're allowed to call there). Halifax alone, especially with those journey times and times of day will not be sufficient for this service.
For Doncaster custom: well is there any? I've used it to and from Doncaster from West Yorkshire but it doesn't look like many others do. The journey is painfully slow, followed from Doncaster by a quicker service and there is no price differential at all*, so it's not looking great.
Do Grand Central make any effort to entice London passengers from Leeds, Shipley, Keighley, Ilkley Garforth, Harrogate, Skipton or New Pudsey onto their services? No.
All of these points are subtly different for the Sunderland route, which is clearly rather more robust.
*yet you have managed to get dedicated tickets for the burgeoning Eaglescliffe to Thirsk market? Wakefield to Doncaster is way overpriced and there's plenty of room on the train, start cutting prices!
on GC
I'm not sure that catering in standard for VTEC is so much better ! A cuppa is still (for the time being) more reasonably priced.
And they still seem to compete on price most ofthe time.
Well it blows it out of the park in first that's for sure
But, in standard, this is the VTEC buffet menu and this is the GC buffet menu (I note that there is only 15p between the price of a cup of tea hardly an earth shattering saving and neither are exactly reasonably priced). Personally the VTEC buffet seems a bit better stocked plus I believe they offer something more substantial than just sandwiches or baguettes to standard class (the 'other hot food options' mentioned on their menu).
And that's just now. Come 2018 and the Class 800s VTEC seem to have plans to provide an at-seat meal service to both classes I don't think GC have such plans currently?
Well it blows it out of the park in first that's for sure
But, in standard, this is the VTEC buffet menu and this is the GC buffet menu (I note that there is only 15p between the price of a cup of tea hardly an earth shattering saving and neither are exactly reasonably priced). Personally the VTEC buffet seems a bit better stocked plus I believe they offer something more substantial than just sandwiches or baguettes to standard class (the 'other hot food options' mentioned on their menu).
And that's just now. Come 2018 and the Class 800s VTEC seem to have plans to provide an at-seat meal service to both classes I don't think GC have such plans currently?
Ah yes, well the tea has gone up recently (I did say "for the time being"
)But the GC breakfast baguette is very substantial !
As for VTEC's at seat service, I would have to deliberate, cogitate and digest (to paraphrase the great Lloyd Grossman) before making a judgement.
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Indeed we all will and detail is thin on the ground at the moment (to be fair it is at least two years away!) so who knows what it will actually look like when it arrives. But, it could well be another difference between GC and VTEC once we get there.
Though I think I'd happily trade the excitement for a few more years with the 125 !
Especially if it's one of the IC70 seated 125s I assume?
Well, that goes without saying
But the fact there is competition brings benefits of its own.
Class 170101
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I wonder would it be quicker for GC to run via their usual route - serve Pontefract and join the ECML at Shaftholme Jn or run via Castleford and Gascoigne Wood Jn and join the ECML at Hambleton Jn?
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
True with tea, but with coffee GC use freshly ground coffee and are 15p cheaper and VTEC use instant.
It's not sale of the century, but it's a little thing (along with free wifi) that makes travelling GC standard that little bit nicer than VTEC. First class on GC is blown out of the water by VTEC though, they need to sort that out.
That sounds suspiciously like XC serving "refreshments at your seat" (because they ripped out the buffet counter that most people preferred).
Starmill said:
I don't follow your logic. It's not "wasted" track capacity, even if other trains serve those two stations, because GC trains are usually full.
It might be track capacity Brian Souter would rather have for himself, in order to
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Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
I thought they'd finally managed to stop the hookers touting for business on the platforms?
Sort of off-topic, but I thought it would be better suited here than a whole new topic.
On the topic of long-waits, I noticed that EM to LDS can sometimes have some lengthy stops along the route...is it the same reason with GC i.e. pathing or is it just a simple schedule pad?
1815 from STP has 26m in NOT
1932 from STP has 20m in NOT and 17m at SHF
On the topic of long-waits, I noticed that EM to LDS can sometimes have some lengthy stops along the route...is it the same reason with GC i.e. pathing or is it just a simple schedule pad?
1815 from STP has 26m in NOT
1932 from STP has 20m in NOT and 17m at SHF
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