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Great Northern and Thameslink May 18 service changes
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Looks like the Thameslink and Great Northern minimum service spec are available here: https://assets.publishing.service.g...ile/525781/tsgn-service-level-commitments.pdf
I haven't read the whole document but there seems to be 2 tables for Great Northern, ECML 1 (page 363) and ECML 2 (page 365).
Looks like ECML 1 is the current spec since it 3 tph on the inner suburbans from Welwyn between the peaks and ECML 2 is the new spec since it has 4 tph.
So, ECML 1 states 6 tph from New Southgate to arrive in London between 8 and 9 am on weekdays, which is correct. On ECML 2 this goes up to 8 tph! Therefore question is why is there only 4 tph in the May 2018 timetable on railplan2020 (of which only 2 tph are in the planners)??
I haven't read the whole document but there seems to be 2 tables for Great Northern, ECML 1 (page 363) and ECML 2 (page 365).
Looks like ECML 1 is the current spec since it 3 tph on the inner suburbans from Welwyn between the peaks and ECML 2 is the new spec since it has 4 tph.
So, ECML 1 states 6 tph from New Southgate to arrive in London between 8 and 9 am on weekdays, which is correct. On ECML 2 this goes up to 8 tph! Therefore question is why is there only 4 tph in the May 2018 timetable on railplan2020 (of which only 2 tph are in the planners)??
Ze Random One
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Not without leaving a a big hole in the middle of the train. Class 700 units only come in 8 or 12 carriage varieties. They are fully walk through, like many new metro trains (e.g., circle/district/metropolitan line trains, or the newest Paris metro stock)
Most of the class 700s are 8-car not 12. Why should Bedford have exclusive 12-car trains? Why not Peterborough or Cambridge?
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Most of the 700s are 8 car (60) not 12 (55).
There’s not many Bedford to Brighton Main Line services in the peak that are 8 car. For St Pancras arrivals in the period 0715 - 0930 I think it is only 1W15, due in at 0905.
1W81 and 1W07 Bedford-Brighton arriving STP just before 0700 are both 8-car.
Of course they are. I'd momentarily forgotten that rather important fact.
It seems that short term issues with lack of unit numbers will be required until long term aims can be realised. I assume the long term aim is more stable space to accommodate 12 car trains.
What time does that train arrive?
They may not be morning peak trains but aren't off peak tickets not valid on them? If not valid I would classified them as peak and the busier trains as high peak.
I admit that's just my own non expert view.
1E64 is a Bedford- Sevenoaks train, (hence the 8 cars) and arrives St P 0817. To be fair it has always been difficult to board; in 319 / 377 days it would leave 2-300 people behind.
The peak is officially trains that are scheduled to arrive at their designated London destination terminal (or St P / Blackfriars for Thameslink) between 0700 and 0959. The high peak is defined as scheduled arrivals between 0800-0859. These definitions are for planning and contractual purposes, and not ticket pricing, wher the peak definition is different by operator. Also busyness of trains varies greatly by route and time.
swt_passenger
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There isn’t normally an off peak period for fares before the morning peak on national rail, although their is on Oyster Payg depending if the journey being made is within the zones...
Roy Badami
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I notice that http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/184755.aspx is now saying the Thameslink timetable is complete in the journey planner for 19-25 May. Only Thameslink, though (as far as GTR services go). And only for that week (which doesn't include a Saturday on the new timetable).
All the other GTR brands, and subsequent weeks for Thameslink, now seem to be targetting T-5 rather than T-6.
EDIT TO ADD: Having just checked the list on the site, a few of the other TOCs have had the 19-25 May timetable confirmation pushed back by a week, but they remain on T-6 for subsequent weeks. For now, at least, only GTR seems to be moving to T-5 for the longer term.
All the other GTR brands, and subsequent weeks for Thameslink, now seem to be targetting T-5 rather than T-6.
EDIT TO ADD: Having just checked the list on the site, a few of the other TOCs have had the 19-25 May timetable confirmation pushed back by a week, but they remain on T-6 for subsequent weeks. For now, at least, only GTR seems to be moving to T-5 for the longer term.
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tsr
Established Member
Some journey planners are showing the GTR services to Guildford as being Thameslink-branded from May. This is bizarre and confusing, given they will all be operated wholly within the confines of the present Southern network, and will be booked to be formed of 10 coaches of 377 stock. Some of the ECS movements to/from Guildford (from Selhurst Depot) also seem to be given unadvertised station stops in similar places to passenger trains (including locations where staff stops would be irrelevant), which again seems odd.
I keep on meaning to flag this one up at work, but haven’t got round to it, because... trains.
I was rather hoping that once the new timetable and sufficient stabling was in place that some of the 8-car stock is lengthened to 12-car.
So as to have sufficient units for Bedford AND Peterborough / Cambridge services.
And before the Siemens units go out of production. No use waiting 5 years then find additional coaches cannot be procured.
So as to have sufficient units for Bedford AND Peterborough / Cambridge services.
And before the Siemens units go out of production. No use waiting 5 years then find additional coaches cannot be procured.
Good luck getting the trains lengthened!
Back in the real world passengers from Stevenage to London travelling in the height of the morning peak will have:
Fewer trains with
Fewer carriages and
Fewer seats.
I agree which is why I still class it as peak and the other times as high peak.
I do admit it gets complicated under my logic as different tickets have peak and off peak restrictions so whether a train is running in the peak would depend on whether your ticket is classed peak or off peak.
I see there are a lot more Sutton loop trains running during the peak.ive also noticed that the number of journey opportunities from East Croydon to Sutton in the morning peak goes from 4 to 8. Amazed at how they have been able to double this. There are even trains stopping at Norwood Junction that show up!
The tramlink route via Mitcham Junction, for which a single ticket is not valid, also shows up more frequently.
In the reverse though for the evening they are still suggesting going to West Croydon and getting the tram, which again isn't valid on a single ticket. I'm aware passengers would use Oyster in London but not so I'd you have a ticket from outside London to Sutton. It's a limitation of National Rail Enquires.
I'm still checking other journeys I've taken in the past to see how it hey change for the better or worse.
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Thanks for that. I knew TfL had a peak period for pricing but I wasn't aware of the train planning definitions of it.
Incidentally I've tended to class high peak as the period at which fast trains cannot stop at Clapham Junction at all. This is longer than the industry definition of high peak. Of course I was seeing everything in the morning as peak because tickets are peak prices, hence why I formed that definition myself.
I was wondering who'd staff it if it was a Thameslink service as Thameslink don't have guards, yet that route requires a guard.
Still they could just run it as a Thameslink service with Southern staff working it! In fact with a Southern branded train and Southern staff passengers could then think it's a Southern train when it isn't.
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Minstral25
Established Member
In May the plan is that all TL1 and TL2 Bedford to Brighton/Gatwick trains will be 12 coach, as will TL5 and TL6 Cambridge to Brighton and Peterborough to Horsham. The TL3 & TL4 peak only Bedford to East Grinstead and Bedford to Littlehampton also 12 coach.
Everything else will be 8 coach units
Is this a requirement for Thameslink and Great Northern post May 2018? I only ask because it states:
Between 18:45 and 19:00 an additional service shall be provided from Royston to Cambridge, calling at all intermediate stations. This service may 28 be formed from a portion which detaches at Royston from a London (Kings Cross) to Kings Lynn service that is required to be provided under Route E.
This is effectively the stopping pattern of the 1814 from KGX, but the new timetable doesn't provide this (the equivalent I assume being the 1812)
Is that officially confirmed? Unlike the Great Northern timetable on railplan2020, the Thameslink one doesn't indicate the train lengths
They're not meticulously following that either now or post May 2018.
For example, it says the first train on a Sunday from north of Cambridge (Ely/Kings Lynn/etc.) has to arrive in London before 1000 (already ridiculously late when for the rest of the network (bar Watton-at-Stone!) there should be an arrival by 0700 or 0715) - but currently the first arrives at 1009, 1010 after May 2018.
It'll be interesting to see how the equivalent (9T13) pans out with the new timetable. At the moment there's a 11 minute gap before that one in the fasts from St Albans. It'll be only 8 with the new timetable but there'll be a 16 minute gap before that from Harpenden, Luton Airport Parkway and Leagrave instead of 11. So should be better if all the fasts are 12 carriages. Mind you the new service will only get you to St Pancras 2 minutes before the current 08:02 (1W93) does to-day.
43074
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The Littlehampton to Bedford services are showing as Southern operated services, as are a few London Bridge to Horsham Sunday morning trains and some ECS moves in the Ashford area... It's just sloppy really.
Then there are the issues with the technicalities of the timetable itself but that's another story...
Subject to stabling and getting units back to Three Bridges depot - not all the empty stock moves are currently in the feed but certainly there are a handful of movements out of Bedford Carriage Sidings that work Brighton and Gatwick Airport services and will be 8-car. Most of the trains stabled at Bedford Carriage Sidings have to run empty to Luton to pick up Sutton loop or Rainham services. A few of the Rainham ones run in service from Bedford. Late trains from Sutton return in service to Bedford like they do currently.
What is the issues with the technicalities of the timetable?The Littlehampton to Bedford services are showing as Southern operated services, as are a few London Bridge to Horsham Sunday morning trains and some ECS moves in the Ashford area... It's just sloppy really.
Then there are the issues with the technicalities of the timetable itself but that's another story...
gingerheid
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I know the reasons (from earlier posts), but looking at the timetable and comparing the services to Foxton (90k pa, static-ish) and Waterbeach (closing in on 0.5m, substantial growth)... poor Waterbeach!!!
Southern only and Thameslink only tickets is the big one.
Sadly there is still a 10-minute gap in RTT in northbound trains from Blackfriars between 16.57 and 17.07, including a half-hour gap in stoppers serving Kentish Town, Cricklewood and Hendon, right in the middle of the peak. The Thameslink timetable shows a Bedford in the middle of this, ex-Rainham, which should be the all-stations Luton. Looks like a serious cock-up, not to mention betrayal of existing users.
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