Great Northern Weekend Cancellations

[MikeWM]

It may look worse than it is. Moorgate is closed for planned engineering and the trains are rescheduled to go to/from Kings Cross. Some sources are showing the Moorgate ones as cancelled “CAN” and the replacements separately as “STP”

...I’m looking at Cambridge services. Eg. the 1727, 1827, 1927 and 2027 stopper services from CBG to KGX are all cancelled (!).

The 2112 and 2212 KGX to Ely are cancelled too, which will significantly inconvenience me trying to get a connection north from Cambridge later this evening.

 

[MikeWM]

...and today it looks like *every* Cambridge to Kings Cross (and vice versa) fast service is cancelled! Ok, there are alternative slower (and no doubt rather crowded) services, but this is still very poor.

 

[Fuzzytop]

A commenter on Twitter notes - though who knows how much truth is in this:

I've reliably heard that GNRailUK are 58 drivers short today.

At least things have been up and running on the stoppers, but it's a really bad state of affairs.

 

[philjo]

I arrived at Cambridge this morning on one of the semi-fast Thameslink Brighton services.
Platform 7 was full of people & luggage. A lot of them then started to board the train before we had alighted. The shuttle service from Kings Lynn to Cambridge was using platform 6 today so most of those passengers were also rushing over the footbridge at the same time were were going over the bridge in the opposite direction.
I was getting the train home early afternoon and some of the Brighton services were also showing as cancelled ( I think one terminated at Three Bridges instead of Cambridge). So the only service to Kings Cross was the hourly stopper. A lot of people boarded this train, mostly unaware that it would take them 90 minutes to get to London.

 

[Hadders]

A commenter on Twitter notes - though who knows how much truth is in this:


At least things have been up and running on the stoppers, but it's a really bad state of affairs.

GTR were awarded the franchise over 5 years ago and keep telling us that they've been running the largest driver recruitment programme in the history of the railway.

Why are we still this short of drivers?

 

[Aictos]

GTR were awarded the franchise over 5 years ago and keep telling us that they've been running the largest driver recruitment programme in the history of the railway.

Why are we still this short of drivers?

As been explained before, it’s not lack of trainees but rather lack of instructors.

 

[Hadders]

As been explained before, it’s not lack of trainees but rather lack of instructors.

FIVE YEARS! Just how long do we have to put up with this?

 

[Mag_seven]

As been explained before, it’s not lack of trainees but rather lack of instructors.

Sound like a lack of competent management to me - you know the resource management that ensures you have the correct number of instructors that you need.

 

[387star]

Sound like a lack of competent management to me - you know the resource management that ensures you have the correct number of instructors that you need.

Thameslink and Great Northern isn't a place drivers choose to stay at for obvious reasons and many leave for other TOCS

There are a few very good depots but on the whole there's better places outside of London

Thameslink probably has the most intensive night work in the country

 

[MikeWM]

Not only have they not run the 2312 from KGX, they don't appear to have even run a shuttle for it between CBG and KLN. This is the last train of the night and, on Saturdays, is usually (irritatingly) busy.

By my reckoning, therefore the latest you could leave London tonight to get back to north of Cambridge was the 2130 off St Pancras [1]. The last train on Christmas Eve was later than that!

[1] A bit later if going via Liverpool Street, but GN shouldn't be continually relying on GA to bail them out when they (all too often) fail to run something approximating to a service.

 

[choochoochoo]

It doesn't help that they've decided not to extend the depot transition agreement that allowed for drivers to cover other depot's routes and traction. I can see it getting worse before it gets better.

 

[wagnaga]

Thameslink and Great Northern isn't a place drivers choose to stay at for obvious reasons and many leave for other TOCS

There are a few very good depots but on the whole there's better places outside of London

Thameslink probably has the most intensive night work in the country

Presumably Thameslink and Great Northern are easier TOC’s to get a driving job due to the volume of vacancies? Does it make it easier to then get a job with another TOC once you’ve worked for one versus being fresh?

 

[Aictos]

FIVE YEARS! Just how long do we have to put up with this?

Your guess is as good as mine and I agree it’s totally unacceptable.

Sound like a lack of competent management to me - you know the resource management that ensures you have the correct number of instructors that you need.

I’m sure both First Capital Connect and Southern (Pre GTR) both warned the DfT of issues which fell on deaf ears.

So the DfT has to take some responsibility for this disaster.

It doesn't help that they've decided not to extend the depot transition agreement that allowed for drivers to cover other depot's routes and traction. I can see it getting worse before it gets better.

Indeed so instead of having a Cambridge driver cover a Kings Cross job as a example they’ve decided to keep the depot work separate between depots?

That sounds absolutely stupid, surely it’s better for depots to cross cover to keep a service running rather then have a situation that you have a train but no driver.

 

[choochoochoo]

Your guess is as good as mine and I agree it’s totally unacceptable.



I’m sure both First Capital Connect and Southern (Pre GTR) both warned the DfT of issues which fell on deaf ears.

So the DfT has to take some responsibility for this disaster.


Indeed so instead of having a Cambridge driver cover a Kings Cross job as a example they’ve decided to keep the depot work separate between depots?

That sounds absolutely stupid, surely it’s better for depots to cross cover to keep a service running rather then have a situation that you have a train but no driver.

Think Cambridge Drivers can cover a Kings Cross job to Cambridge, but don't think a kings cross driver could do some of the cambridge jobs as kings cross drivers don't sign 700s.

But definitely a questionable decision to de-skill your workforce before you've fully filled all depot vacancies.

 

[jon0844]

Is the union decision (to end the agreement) to allow local drivers the option of rest day work rather than a driver from another depot being rostered?

I can see how the union will be more for protecting staff than worrying too much about how management cope. After all that's a lot of the reasoning behind the previous Sunday working arrangement.

 

[choochoochoo]

Is the union decision (to end the agreement) to allow local drivers the option of rest day work rather than a driver from another depot being rostered?

I can see how the union will be more for protecting staff than worrying too much about how management cope. After all that's a lot of the reasoning behind the previous Sunday working arrangement.

I thought the agreement allowed committed rest day work regardless of whether there were uncovered turns at your depot or not. Therefore local drivers were not missing out on rest day work because of other depot drivers doing their work ?

I think this is the aspect GTR found unpalatable as it some times resulted in paying lots of driver to sit spare with no turns for them and thus pulled the plug.

I thought the union wanted the agreement to continue ?

 

[Aictos]

Think Cambridge Drivers can cover a Kings Cross job to Cambridge, but don't think a kings cross driver could do some of the cambridge jobs as kings cross drivers don't sign 700s.

But definitely a questionable decision to de-skill your workforce before you've fully filled all depot vacancies.

I wasn’t aware of the ins and outs of what depot does what but a few years ago under First Capital Connect they didn’t have this problem as they had all depots able to cover each other to a certain degree of route knowledge eg Kings Lynn working Hertford stoppers etc.

Still a stupid move that they’ve as in GTR has done in regards to the depot cross covering other depots work.

 

[choochoochoo]

I wasn’t aware of the ins and outs of what depot does what but a few years ago under First Capital Connect they didn’t have this problem as they had all depots able to cover each other to a certain degree of route knowledge eg Kings Lynn working Hertford stoppers etc.

Still a stupid move that they’ve as in GTR has done in regards to the depot cross covering other depots work.

It used to be that way until the major May 2018 timetable change.

I get why it's been done, in preparation for when the 'franchise' ends so it's easier to break up the different parts of the GN route network.

But don't get why they didn't wait until they had enough qualified drivers at each depot before making such a drastic change. The cross cover offered a flexibility. It also meant DIs could train any trainee on routes/traction they eventually will be driving. Unlike now where trainees are with other depot DIs learning routes and traction they'll never drive.

 

[Aictos]

It used to be that way until the major May 2018 timetable change.

I get why it's been done, in preparation for when the 'franchise' ends so it's easier to break up the different parts of the GN route network.

But don't get why they didn't wait until they had enough qualified drivers at each depot before making such a drastic change. The cross cover offered a flexibility. It also meant DIs could train any trainee on routes/traction they eventually will be driving. Unlike now where trainees are with other depot DIs learning routes and traction they'll never drive.

Indeed it’s something that’s been done prematurely, like you have said a few times the best course of action would to have enough qualified drivers at each depot but course that’s just sheer common sense which is missing here....

 

[387star]

Presumably Thameslink and Great Northern are easier TOC’s to get a driving job due to the volume of vacancies? Does it make it easier to then get a job with another TOC once you’ve worked for one versus being fresh?

None are easy to get a job with

I would say aside InterCity operators Scotrail , TPE and GWR seem popular probably TFW too whereas Southeastern Southwestern GTR and Greater Anglia are a lot less popular amongst Qualifieds

 

[MikeWM]

Not cancellations as such, but what is going on now with shortforms on Saturdays?

A couple of Saturdays this year I decided to give GN a go again at weekends after the 2018 disaster. And both times - the second being tonight - the 2112 KGX to Ely has been only four carriages. With five minutes still to departure, there’s a *lot* of people having to stand...

This can’t be booked as 4 carriages, surely? And if not, why has is been shortformed 2 out of 2?

(I think this is the end of my GN experiment at weekends. Back to GA it is...)

 

[bramling]

Not cancellations as such, but what is going on now with shortforms on Saturdays?

A couple of Saturdays this year I decided to give GN a go again at weekends after the 2018 disaster. And both times - the second being tonight - the 2112 KGX to Ely has been only four carriages. With five minutes still to departure, there’s a *lot* of people having to stand...

This can’t be booked as 4 carriages, surely? And if not, why has is been shortformed 2 out of 2?

(I think this is the end of my GN experiment at weekends. Back to GA it is...)

Two possibilities spring to mind:

1) Was anything cancelled yesterday late in the day which could have led to the stock balance being wrong at the end of the day?

2) Shortage of drivers at Cambridge for doing shunts leading to the strengthening units not being in position for the Canbridge to London segment of the journey?

 

[Ianno87]

Not cancellations as such, but what is going on now with shortforms on Saturdays?

A couple of Saturdays this year I decided to give GN a go again at weekends after the 2018 disaster. And both times - the second being tonight - the 2112 KGX to Ely has been only four carriages. With five minutes still to departure, there’s a *lot* of people having to stand...

This can’t be booked as 4 carriages, surely? And if not, why has is been shortformed 2 out of 2?

(I think this is the end of my GN experiment at weekends. Back to GA it is...)

Stood on Stevenage/Hitchin earlier, both the 1712 and 1742 ex-Kings Cross passed as 4 car sets. Full and standing, obviously.

Made me very grateful for my 12-car 700 on the way home, and more reason to stear clear of the fasts on a weekend.

 

[JonathanH]

A couple of Saturdays this year I decided to give GN a go again at weekends after the 2018 disaster. And both times - the second being tonight - the 2112 KGX to Ely has been only four carriages. With five minutes still to departure, there’s a *lot* of people having to stand...

This can’t be booked as 4 carriages, surely? And if not, why has is been shortformed 2 out of 2?

RTT implies that the up service (1T57 1844 Kings Lynn to London Kings Cross) should attach to additional coaches at Cambridge.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L09193/2020-04-04/detailed
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C02475/2020-04-04/detailed

However, the additional coaches appear to have been cancelled in advance tonight
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L09193/2020-02-22/detailed

 

[MikeWM]

Stood on Stevenage/Hitchin earlier, both the 1712 and 1742 ex-Kings Cross passed as 4 car sets. Full and standing, obviously.

Ouch. Was busy enough at 2112, but those can't have been pleasant

RTT implies that the up service (1T57 1844 Kings Lynn to London Kings Cross) should attach to additional coaches at Cambridge.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L09193/2020-04-04/detailed
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C02475/2020-04-04/detailed

However, the additional coaches appear to have been cancelled in advance tonight
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L09193/2020-02-22/detailed

Well, that's interesting, thanks. So if they can't be bothered to run decent length trains for whatever reason, I'll go back to GA only travelcards at weekends.

In any event, I suppose at least it ran, even if it was a bit cosy. I see that once again tonight they've cancelled the last train from London to north of Cambridge. As I've mentioned before, I can't remember that ever happening under FCC - delayed, yes, but never cancelled (and I got this train almost every Saturday night for many years).

 

[bramling]

Stood on Stevenage/Hitchin earlier, both the 1712 and 1742 ex-Kings Cross passed as 4 car sets. Full and standing, obviously.

Made me very grateful for my 12-car 700 on the way home, and more reason to stear clear of the fasts on a weekend.

If we're getting to the situation where Cambridge users are choosing to take the slower services then the concept of non-stop Cambridge / London trains should be ended, in order to spread the load for the benefit of those using the intermediate stations who don't have the luxury of an 8 tph London service.

As a minimum having one hourly service call at Letchworth and the other at Royston would be a start, with a spin-off benefit being it should make life slightly easier not having such a differential in running times.

 

[MikeWM]

If we're getting to the situation where Cambridge users are choosing to take the slower services...

I'm sure they'd rather not, not least because the slower services are formed of 700s! But if they can't physically fit on the non-stoppers because they are shortformed, what else can they do?

It isn't so long since the fasts were often 12-car at the busiest weekend times. But I don't remember the last time now I saw a 12-car at the weekend.

 

[GoatSarah]

If I can, I avoid the CBG-KGX services completely now. I always try to catch the CBG-BTN services, even if I'm just going to London. The Great Northern trains are cattle trucks. The 700/1s have a better ride, go to central London, and you can always get plenty of space.

 

[bramling]

If I can, I avoid the CBG-KGX services completely now. I always try to catch the CBG-BTN services, even if I'm just going to London. The Great Northern trains are cattle trucks. The 700/1s have a better ride, go to central London, and you can always get plenty of space.

I'm presuming this is in (declassified) first?

 

[causton]

I'm presuming this is in (declassified) first?

Not necessarily.

On a weekend you can have declassified First at the rear full up before departure from the origin station (I had it from Bedford myself and have heard of the phenomenon with ECML-side trains) with Standard remaining comfortably empty as everyone "in the know" (i.e. staff and their families, the time I witnessed it) flocks to it.

I walked straight through into Standard and had 2 seats by myself all the way to St Albans, where I alighted. This was at about 8am on a Saturday morning.