Great Western Electrification Progress

[superkev]

Electric doubters may want to see how much faster an electric train is than a diesel by looking at YouTube. https://youtu.be/LQu-nu3tbKU.
Electric motors of course have a much higher short term output than there continuous rating.
K

 

[coppercapped]

Under the current plans yes.
But I am not going to turn two tracks over to Crossrail for 2 trains per hour.

I would propose a rather higher intensity service.

Slow their journey on the assumption that they will always turn up at exactly the right time to travel.
For example changing at Reading is not necessarily a bad thing if the suburbans have gone to Crossrail at tube-like frequencies (and once the tracks are entirely in Crossrail's hands there is little to prevent that).

Reading to Ealing Broadway via Crossrail (according to their website) will only be 42 minutes. Which is not going to be catastrophically slower than the current offering (NRE is not working for me at the moment) and is the worst case scenario as far as journey times getting worse are concerned.


Speed is not the be all and end all - having 24tph to heathrow junction and something like 16tph to Reading will probably make up for that. (Or however many Reading can actually terminate and turn around, although if we were pursuing this course that would haev been taken care of with dedicated Crossrail platforms during the reconstruction).


Or it could run with a 68 and 88 in formation.
Or it could buy some better stock that is capable of better than 45mph with some of the freight industry's collosal subsidies.
Indeed this is a many billion pound operation - how may freight wagon sets are required for the Mendip stone trains?
We could buy 75mph high speed sets or better and it would be a negligible cost.

To start with the end.

75mph stone trains with 25 tonne axleloads - hmm. If you can solve that conundrum at an economic price then your name will be listed as one of the railways' greatest civil engineers.

One Class 59 can haul up to 4,400 tonnes at 45mph - why would you want to, essentially, double the haulage costs?

And, oh by the way, with the current stock the empties can return to the Mendips at 60mph.

The Crossrail ideas are fantasy. Why on earth you think there is a market for 16tph all stations trains to Reading? At the eastern end each branch is only expected to take 8 and the distances are more 'metro'-like

The future 42 minute timing between Reading and Ealing Broadway by an all stations Crossrail train will be undercut by the limited stop outer-suburban stoppers. Currently the timings are 45 mins with 7 intermediate stops with Class 165/166 units - the proposals post-Crossrail are for the trains to make 4 stops and will be Class 387s. With these the elapsed times are expected to be around 32-33 minutes. But the point is that these trains will be starting from Oxford, initially from Didcot until the Oxford station reconstruction is sufficiently advanced, and offer a through service from the intermediate stations.

There are flows other than Reading to Ealing Broadway, people also travel from Oxford to Slough, Didcot to Hayes, Pangbourne to Maidenhead. Forcing these people to change will not go down well - even with lots of Crossrail trains from Reading.

The suggestions you have made have all the hallmarks of the railway being run for the benefit of enthusiasts will little understanding of the needs of the market.

 

[coppercapped]

Electric doubters may want to see how much faster an electric train is than a diesel by looking at YouTube. https://youtu.be/LQu-nu3tbKU.
Electric motors of course have a much higher short term output than there continuous rating.
K

That video proves nothing at all except that both the power-to-weight ratio and the gear ratios are different.

The Class 165/166s have a 350bhp diesel per coach - in a package of similar size and mass a modern engine could deliver some 550 to 600bhp.

The gearing is different to suit the different top speeds - the Networker has a 75mph top speed and the Class 165/166 are geared for 90mph. Even if the installed power were to be the same for both types the train with the lower top speed would have a higher rate of acceleration.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Another factor to consider is that by the mid-2020s the Reading-Langley section of the Relief Lines will be carrying trains serving the Western Access to Heathrow. Proposal is for 4tph Paddington-Heathrow-Slough-Maidenhead-Twyford-Reading, effectively an extension of the existing HEX timetable.
This is not a timetable compatible with a significant increase in Crossrail services west of Airport Jn. There certainly won't be paths for an extra 4tph on the Main Lines. With the need to path freights as well, I doubt we'll ever see (or need) more than 4tph Crossrail west of Airport Jn.

 

[HSTEd]

To start with the end.

75mph stone trains with 25 tonne axleloads - hmm. If you can solve that conundrum at an economic price then your name will be listed as one of the railways' greatest civil engineers.

Supposedly the Fortescue Railway manages 40 metric tonne axle loads at 50mph. So it doesn't seem too ridiculous.
Or since stone doesn't care about arriving on time you could also stack the trains and run them after the last train of the day on the fasts.

One Class 59 can haul up to 4,400 tonnes at 45mph - why would you want to, essentially, double the haulage costs?

So I can use those paths for something that has a far greater economic value than stone that is priced at a few pounds a tonne.

And, oh by the way, with the current stock the empties can return to the Mendips at 60mph.

Still too slow.

The Crossrail ideas are fantasy. Why on earth you think there is a market for 16tph all stations trains to Reading? At the eastern end each branch is only expected to take 8 and the distances are more 'metro'-like

Plus the residual Liverpool Street trains that are proposed - the normal number is actually rather higher.
And the advantage of electric trains operating under ATO is that it is actually surprisingly cheap to run more.
The line's environs are actually very heavily developed as far as Maidenhead - and I would expect patronage to explode once the enormously high intensity service reduces practical journey times.

The future 42 minute timing between Reading and Ealing Broadway by an all stations Crossrail train will be undercut by the limited stop outer-suburban stoppers. Currently the timings are 45 mins with 7 intermediate stops with Class 165/166 units - the proposals post-Crossrail are for the trains to make 4 stops and will be Class 387s. With these the elapsed times are expected to be around 32-33 minutes.

33 minutes versus 42 minutes.
So you save nine minutes.
At 16 trains per hour the average waiting time is 2 minutes, so 44 minutes.
With your lower intensity the effective journey time is no better.

But the point is that these trains will be starting from Oxford, initially from Didcot until the Oxford station reconstruction is sufficiently advanced, and offer a through service from the intermediate stations.

They wil be inconvenienced by a few minutes at most since they will be changing onto a train but would only be waiting for essentially as long as it takes for them to reach the Crossrail platform.

There are flows other than Reading to Ealing Broadway, people also travel from Oxford to Slough, Didcot to Hayes, Pangbourne to Maidenhead. Forcing these people to change will not go down well - even with lots of Crossrail trains from Reading.

A relative handful of people travelling from West London to Oxford would be swamped by the increased custom that comes from opening what amounts to a new tube line in West London instead of the rarified service that is currently proposed.

 

[HSTEd]

Another factor to consider is that by the mid-2020s the Reading-Langley section of the Relief Lines will be carrying trains serving the Western Access to Heathrow. Proposal is for 4tph Paddington-Heathrow-Slough-Maidenhead-Twyford-Reading, effectively an extension of the existing HEX timetable.

ASsuming that project actually happens - has it actually been greenlit?

This is not a timetable compatible with a significant increase in Crossrail services west of Airport Jn. There certainly won't be paths for an extra 4tph on the Main Lines. With the need to path freights as well, I doubt we'll ever see (or need) more than 4tph Crossrail west of Airport Jn.

Why do stone trains, the sort of thing that is the very definition of non-time-critical freight, have to run during the day anyway?

 

[WelshBluebird]

Another factor to consider is that by the mid-2020s the Reading-Langley section of the Relief Lines will be carrying trains serving the Western Access to Heathrow. Proposal is for 4tph Paddington-Heathrow-Slough-Maidenhead-Twyford-Reading, effectively an extension of the existing HEX timetable.
This is not a timetable compatible with a significant increase in Crossrail services west of Airport Jn. There certainly won't be paths for an extra 4tph on the Main Lines. With the need to path freights as well, I doubt we'll ever see (or need) more than 4tph Crossrail west of Airport Jn.

Total speculation from me here, but I do wonder if when Crossrail starts running to Heathrow we will see a decrease in the popularity of HEX due to the competition. In terms of timings Crossrail is still going to be pretty competitive and will be a lot more convenient for a lot of people. In that case could HEX still manage to be its own separate thing?

 

[jyte]

Total speculation from me here, but I do wonder if when Crossrail starts running to Heathrow we will see a decrease in the popularity of HEX due to the competition. In terms of timings Crossrail is still going to be pretty competitive and will be a lot more convenient for a lot of people. In that case could HEX still manage to be its own separate thing?

I can't remember where I read this (it was probably this thread) (so I-MAY-HAVE-PULLED-THIS-OUT-MY-ARSE-WARNING) but as HEX owns the track from Airport junction to Heathrow I think Crossrail agreed to briefly stable trains on the flyover that now serves the down relief to ensure that Crossrail from Paddington to T1,2,3 takes at least 30 minutes, or twice the HEX time.

Is that even possible though?

 

[furnessvale]

Why do stone trains, the sort of thing that is the very definition of non-time-critical freight, have to run during the day anyway?

To restrict such trains to 12 instead of 24 hours per day would halve the productivity of the wagons and locos resulting in increased costs and a probable loss of traffic.

 

[holts]

Led to believe by who?

You must have missed the parliamentary statement about completing to Cardiff by 2018 that snowball quoted a few posts back?

It came from someone involved on the political front , so must be taken with pinch of salt simply because they are political and I , at least , am always suspicious of an agenda , the excuse being lack of funds , Brexit blah blah. My flabber was gasted simply because I could not contemplate anyone being able to consider it having spent money on the tunnel : the same individual then went on to offer the info on the Welsh Marches .

 

[Ianno87]

So I can use those paths for something that has a far greater economic value than stone that is priced at a few pounds a tonne.

.

The value of the aggregrate may be low in absoute terms, but its wider economic value is exceptionally high. Where exactly do you think the many, many construction sites in Central London source their materials from?

Deliveries can also be time critical, as many construction sites in Central London have limited space for storage/stockpiling of materials, so Just in Time delivery is crucial.

 

[flappy8]

A relative handful of people travelling from West London to Oxford would be swamped by the increased custom that comes from opening what amounts to a new tube line in West London instead of the rarified service that is currently proposed.

It's an extreme 'tube line in West London' that goes out to Reading all stations every few minutes. Yes it's easier to compartmentalise it like that on paper, but provides no redundancy for the GWML which would effectively be 2 track only from Reading to Paddington. That has huge implications for maintenance and service resolution after incidents/faults, even if you chose to ignore freight.

You have to consider that simplifying services, and just throwing in another change for passengers isn't convenient and often makes the journey slower. Just ask passengers at Watford Junction or some of the stations in the Trent Valley whose options became less so that Virgin could introduce their VHF timetable. Yes it made Euston to Manchester quicker, but slows down and reduces convenience for many journeys using an intermediate station.

 

[BananaRepublic]

ASsuming that project actually happens - has it actually been greenlit?

The Western Rail Link to Heathrow (previously known as Western Rail Access to Heathrow WRAtH) project, is very much alive and in progress and is about to undergo its final round of public consultations (a sort of final update and feedback phase).

The consultation period was extended last year and the project delayed by two years. Preliminary construction work was due to start this April/May, but is now expected to commence in spring 2019.
Moving the project back from CP5 to CP6 also fits in with sorting out the backlog of major NR programmes.

The formal planning application to the National Infrastructure planning inspectorate, is scheduled to be submitted in Q4 2017 (later this year).
The approval process is expected to take 28 days, after which it goes to the Secretary of State for a final decision on going ahead.

Basically, you can count on this project going ahead, unless there is a major shake up of NR and/or its budget, which will not only have the potential to affect this project, but will effect all of NR rail's current and future projects.

The Western Rail Link will add 4 tph to the GWML relief lines, resulting in an expected 10 tph between Langley and Maidenhead.
That doesn't leave much scope for other paths, once the likely 1 tph freight path is factored in.

As this topic is supposed to be about electrification, its worth being reminded that construction of the new grade separated junction for the new link, just east of Langley station; plus the plans to relocate the HEX depot to Langley; will mean that the wiring now going up, will have to be taken down and re-built in a few years time.

 

[Taunton]

plus the plans to relocate the HEX depot to Langley

There's a general perception that HEx will be dead once Crossrail comes along, so the depot is a moot point..

I presume that the WRL will be operated just by extending the Heathrow Crossrail trains round the loop and back onto the main line, rather than have two separate services from opposite directions terminating at Heathrow. This will surely require some of the additional options for Crossrail trains to be ordered.

 

[glbotu]

There's a general perception that HEx will be dead once Crossrail comes along, so the depot is a moot point..

I presume that the WRL will be operated just by extending the Heathrow Crossrail trains round the loop and back onto the main line, rather than have two separate services from opposite directions terminating at Heathrow. This will surely require some of the additional options for Crossrail trains to be ordered.

Actually, I believe it's more likely that WRAtH will be run by Heathrow Express service in some guise. It's likely to open around 2024, the time when the Heathrow lines revert to Network Rail, rather than BAA, which means that Heathrow Express might become affordable.

 

[BananaRepublic]

There's a general perception that HEx will be dead once Crossrail comes along, so the depot is a moot point...

Nobody knows what will happen to HEX.
It's not only Crossrail posing a threat to its viability, there's the issue of what happens from 2014, when the GWML track access agreement ends.
NR and the GWML franchise operator will be looking to take those much needed fast line paths back.

....I presume that the WRL will be operated just by extending the Heathrow Crossrail trains round the loop and back onto the main line, rather than have two separate services from opposite directions terminating at Heathrow. This will surely require some of the additional options for Crossrail trains to be ordered.

Lots of speculation about through services, but I believe this might prove to be a disastrous waste of capacity to the airport, especially if the 3rd runway and associated new terminal development is given the go ahead.

Even without that development, the WRL is expected to draw in a significant number of passengers heading to/from Heathrow from the west, southwest and south midlands; not to mention from within the Thames Valley itself.
I'm not sure that cramming the trains with London commuters, who are not travelling to or from the airport, is a good idea.

Actually, I believe it's more likely that WRAtH will be run by Heathrow Express service in some guise. It's likely to open around 2024, the time when the Heathrow lines revert to Network Rail, rather than BAA, which means that Heathrow Express might become affordable.

Pedantry first. WRAtH no longer exists as a project title. It changed a couple of years ago to WRL to Heathrow. However....

It's the HEX track access agreement on the GWML that expires in 2024.
It doesn't affect the Heathrow rail tunnels and track, as they belong to Heathrow Airport Ltd.
Crossrail have a track access agreement to use HAL tracks from the tunnel portals into the airport itself.

 

[edwin_m]

In December's Modern Railways Chris Stokes outlined the idea of a Heathrow Southern Railway, basically the Airtrack project but with a new route along the M25 to avoid the troublesome level crossings. This also proposed that the 4TPH HEX paths should be extended to somewhere like Woking, thus providing other benefits such as improving access to HS2 at Old Oak.

This would probably imply terminating the western access trains at Heathrow. This isn't a great loss since, as mentioned, any journey between west and east of Heathrow would always be quicker on a direct train via GWML. The Heathrow Crossrail trains could continue to Reading but would probably be much too large for the available demand, so I think a better idea (with the Southern rail link) would be to send those to Staines and extend East West Rail (when eventually electrified) to provide a Heathrow link from as far away as MK or Bedford.

 

[gwr4090]

In December's Modern Railways Chris Stokes outlined the idea of a Heathrow Southern Railway, basically the Airtrack project but with a new route along the M25 to avoid the troublesome level crossings. This also proposed that the 4TPH HEX paths should be extended to somewhere like Woking, thus providing other benefits such as improving access to HS2 at Old Oak.

This would probably imply terminating the western access trains at Heathrow. This isn't a great loss since, as mentioned, any journey between west and east of Heathrow would always be quicker on a direct train via GWML. The Heathrow Crossrail trains could continue to Reading but would probably be much too large for the available demand, so I think a better idea (with the Southern rail link) would be to send those to Staines and extend East West Rail (when eventually electrified) to provide a Heathrow link from as far away as MK or Bedford.

I recall that HEX has already expressed a wish to extend its existing services from Heathrow to Slough and Reading, although this is no more than an aspiration at present. Another alternative is a fast Paddington-Heathrow-Reading-Basingstoke service which was mooted in one of the NR strategy documents a year or two ago.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Another alternative is a fast Paddington-Heathrow-Reading-Basingstoke service which was mooted in one of the NR strategy documents a year or two ago.

Which would of course need Reading- Basingstoke wired which would have happened under Electric Spine but doubtful now.

 

[Tio Terry]

Which would of course need Reading- Basingstoke wired which would have happened under Electric Spine but doubtful now.

Bi-mode, or even tri-mode and go all the way to Southampton including Southampton Airport Parkway to link up the airports?

 

[reddragon]

Back on subject . . .

Went up to London today & checked the wires.

Paddington P1/2 has some fixing bases in place above the canopy

To the west, the wires look complete to west of Maidenhead, where the Crossrail sidings end. There is then a small gap before the wires again continue, ending line by line to 28 MP.

Beyond there things fade fast with piles still not all complete in Sonning cutting & many masts still on the ground.

Reading is ready for wires, but only p13/14 are wired.

The 387s are moving around the depot under their own power too.

 

[JN114]

Haven't seen it on here -

Flash notices posted advising Airport Jn - Maidenhead will be energised on the 5th Feb

 

[coppercapped]

There's a general perception that HEx will be dead once Crossrail comes along, so the depot is a moot point..

I presume that the WRL will be operated just by extending the Heathrow Crossrail trains round the loop and back onto the main line, rather than have two separate services from opposite directions terminating at Heathrow. This will surely require some of the additional options for Crossrail trains to be ordered.

It's not moot. One of the amendments to the HS2 bill allows for HS2 to move HEx's depot from Old Oak Common - because the site is needed for the proposed HS2 station there - to the last green field between Langley and Iver.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Haven't seen it on here -

Flash notices posted advising Airport Jn - Maidenhead will be energised on the 5th Feb

Assuming it's energised on the 5th Feb, how soon afterwards will the Hayes & Harlington (Electrostar) trains likely be extended to Maidenhead?

 

[JN114]

Assuming it's energised on the 5th Feb, how soon afterwards will the Hayes & Harlington (Electrostar) trains likely be extended to Maidenhead?

Never.

The Hayes services will remain as Hayes services until they're withdrawn and replaced with Crossrail 4tph to Heathrow (along with Connect)

Peak only running to and from Maidenhead is due to commence in May, subject to all station compatibility testing and verification being completed. The former Bourne End through services (that now terminate at Maidenhead) and a very small handful of stoppers which also start/terminate Maidenhead are the services you're looking for.

 

[davetheguard]

Which would of course need Reading- Basingstoke wired which would have happened under Electric Spine but doubtful now.

I'm unclear as to the status of Reading - Basingstoke electrification. I'm sure it was moved out of "electric spine" to be part of the GWML electrification.

But now, nothing but silence. Didcot to Oxford and Henley & Windsor branches put back (although not clear if this means longer timescales or de facto cancellation), but no mention of Basingstoke at all.

Does anyone know? If it's in the public domain and I've missed something, perhaps somebody could help?

 

[HowardGWR]

Back on subject . . .

Went up to London today & checked the wires.

Paddington P1/2 has some fixing bases in place above the canopy

To the west, the wires look complete to west of Maidenhead, where the Crossrail sidings end. There is then a small gap before the wires again continue, ending line by line to 28 MP.

Beyond there things fade fast with piles still not all complete in Sonning cutting & many masts still on the ground.

Reading is ready for wires, but only p13/14 are wired.

The 387s are moving around the depot under their own power too.

Many thanks RD, but what does the highlighted sentence mean. Do you mean the roof? You obviously don't but could you explain please?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm unclear as to the status of Reading - Basingstoke electrification. I'm sure it was moved out of "electric spine" to be part of the GWML electrification.

It was never in CP5, and is now just one of the long list of potential schemes for CP6, the content of which won't be confirmed for a couple of years.
In its favour is the fact that a new feeder station is due to be built at Bramley to supply the wider GW scheme.
So essentially some of the infrastructure work on the route will happen anyway.

 

[Hophead]

I'm unclear as to the status of Reading - Basingstoke electrification. I'm sure it was moved out of "electric spine" to be part of the GWML electrification.

But now, nothing but silence. Didcot to Oxford and Henley & Windsor branches put back (although not clear if this means longer timescales or de facto cancellation), but no mention of Basingstoke at all.

Does anyone know? If it's in the public domain and I've missed something, perhaps somebody could help?

I posed the same question in post 3963.
The response came in the very next post - basically dropped for the foreseeable future and hoping nobody's noticed.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm unclear as to the status of Reading - Basingstoke electrification. I'm sure it was moved out of "electric spine" to be part of the GWML electrification.

But now, nothing but silence. Didcot to Oxford and Henley & Windsor branches put back (although not clear if this means longer timescales or de facto cancellation), but no mention of Basingstoke at all.

Does anyone know? If it's in the public domain and I've missed something, perhaps somebody could help?

Southcote Jn to Basingstoke is still shown as a separate project to the TV branches, but is no a part of Electric spine either. Its entry in the December enhancements plan has not been updated since March though, it still reads just "assumed CP6".