Equally the DfT could with the current southeastern. Money talks!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
^^^ Railway Myth #2014
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Greater Anglia - Overground takeover
- Thread starter telstarbox
- Start date
- Status
Equally the DfT could with the current southeastern. Money talks!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
^^^ Railway Myth #2014
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Well, the fact is there are spare paths in some places on the new lines that TfL will take over, or at least, there will be with a bit of extra infrastructure. Years ago an RUS was published which stated an intention to build a turnback siding at Seven Sisters to enable a better service on the Southbury loop than the currently rather poor all-day 2tph. Perhaps with TfL's greater involvement, something like that might now actually be built!
It's also notable that there're enough paths in the AM peak for a total of 8tph from Edmonton to London, yet during off-peak times that falls to just 4tph. Perhaps under TfL that 4 might be increased to something like 6 with the generally accepted turn-up-and-go frequency of 4tph for the Enfield branch, and 2pth remaining for the time being on the Southbury loop.
Granted, it's unlikely that there'd be any extra service provision on the Chingford branch however. With 4tph all day every and a last departure at 1am from London, Chingford's residents seem rather lucky to me (stuck on the Southbury loop)!
I doubt it. Southeastern metro is pretty congested as it is during the peak and daytime off-peak timetable. There's no way for example paths could be made to increase metro services between Orpington and Sevenoaks without removing paths from mainline services. One of the concerns that KCC and Kent Tory MP's were concerned about which you claim is a railway myth.
It's not a coincidence that those seats affected are Conservative.
Kent commuter groups were also lobbying against previous options to stop Victoria Kent Coast services at Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye to replace the 2tph to Victoria lost when the SLL was transferred from Southern to London Overground who diverted the services to Clapham Junction to complete the LO orbital, although Southeastern are consulting to add 1tph to Victoria at Denmark Hill using a mainline service in 2015.
Last edited:
Sorry I was referring to increasing the late evening and weekend services.
KCC and MPs did of course make representations. But there was never any danger of main line paths being turned over for additional Metro services. It wasn't those representations that stopped it.
KCC and MPs did of course make representations. But there was never any danger of main line paths being turned over for additional Metro services. It wasn't those representations that stopped it.
Yeah both entrances and then also before the stairs at each platform on the underpass. Pretty simple to do and I dont doubt that it will be done ASAP once it gets transferred over.
Interesting! That's generally the feeling that it was Kent that blocked it. What representations put the blocks on?
Presumably HM Treasury looking at the potential bill for what TfL was proposing?
i.e. More off peak presumably as well as additional rolling stock to actually run more services as 12 car in the peak and station refurbs /gating /lifts...
Presumably it is also easier not to take over SE services when there will be lots of disruption and bad publicity from the London Bridge refurb?
A member on District Dave's forum is reporting that LOROL have been approached by TfL London Rail to take over the Greater Anglia services devolved to TfL for Overground use from May 2015.
There's no mention if that includes the Shenfield stoppers which will be part of the Crossrail concessionaire.
There's no mention if that includes the Shenfield stoppers which will be part of the Crossrail concessionaire.
As far as I'm aware it only includes the Chingford/Cheshunt sections. it is until the current LOROL concession ends at which point the whole concession iwill be open to competitors. Clearly TfL think that LOROL have made a decent enough fist of the existing concession to offer it to them. Interesting thing is that I doubt much of the real benefits of TfL takeover (refurbished stations and new rolling stock) will really kick in until virtually the end of the existing concession. The types of things that might improve sooner would be increased staffing and service frequencies.
mister-sparky
Member
Why on earth should a passenger from Ramsgate/Dover have their journey times lengthened even more so just because somebody wants to travel from Denmark Hill to Victoria?!
Indeed, there's 2tph on the Horsham stoppers via Redhill which call at New Cross Gate for exactly the same reason. The busiest section of the ELL is currently between NXG and Canada Water.
The 1tph at Denmark Hill will give those Kent commuters the same opportunity to connect with the ELL for an easier connection to Canary Wharf (changing at Canada Water) and the City.
I wouldn't underestimate how busy Denmark Hill is with employees and patients of Kings College Hospital and the Maudsley.
Well it wouldn't surprise me if HM treasury did block it - they don't seem to like investing much in south east London. Presumably not many staff live there being the poorest part of London.
The south east of London can continue on with just 2 tph in the evenings and weekends then, with pretty much no tube or trams, and very limited DLR and crossrail in future with only the tips of lines just jutting over the river. Whilst the south of London has its trams and frequent London Overground services, the East gets far more crossrail stations, the tube and more LO services, and north and west have their extensive tube network along with LO frequencies.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Indeed. The southeastern services that call at Denmark Hill are exceptionally busy at peak times. It doesn't help that it has poor frequencies and short trains.
Last edited:
A lot of people get off at Denmark Hill from the faster trains, like the 08:30 to Victoria which has come from Bromley South as a previous stop. So there is already a fair bit of connecting going on there over a longer distance.
Plus as mentioned, the Kings/Maudsley Hospitals are big employers regionally. Students too - and many of these folk will be travelling outside of traditional commuting times.
The slowdown for a Kent passenger is about 2 mins and well worth it overall. It's a very busy station these days, more so than Herne Hill or Beckenham Junction (although they've lost faster services) - or Swanley, which slows down coastal trains too.
Plus as mentioned, the Kings/Maudsley Hospitals are big employers regionally. Students too - and many of these folk will be travelling outside of traditional commuting times.
The slowdown for a Kent passenger is about 2 mins and well worth it overall. It's a very busy station these days, more so than Herne Hill or Beckenham Junction (although they've lost faster services) - or Swanley, which slows down coastal trains too.
leytongabriel
Member
- Joined
- 27 Jan 2013
- Messages
- 590
We will also lose our relatively relaxing announcement -free journeys. LO trains blast customers with overamplified (epecially on the Barking line) announcements no less than three times per stop. Once on leaving the station to say where the train is going and what the next stop will be, once on approaching the next station stop and once on arrival. That's three times every two minutes or so. How lost and disorientated (or just plain stupid) do they think the travelling public is?
transmanche
Established Member
- Joined
- 27 Feb 2011
- Messages
- 6,018
I think that's would be pretty much guaranteed anyway, irrespective of a transfer to LO.
Why on earth should a passenger from Denmark Hill not be able to board a train just because somebody from Ramsgate/Dover doesn't want to have two minutes added to their journey?!
Is their capacity in the network for trains to stop at Denmark Hill or is it like Clapham Junction, where by fast mine line South West Train services can't stop at it during peak rush hour, despite the great connections that would open up for people?
Generally, yes.
I'd rather hope that once the long term aspiration of four-track from Copper Mill junction to Broxbourne is completed that the Hertford- and possibly an extension of Chesunt terminators to Harlow? Note this is my crayon scribbling idea, not anything official- services would be folded in to the TfL concession. Once Crossrail opens there will be spare capacity between Stratford and Liverpool Street- unfortunately on the "wrong side"?- but something could be done to use that relive the route via Clapton.
Ideally, of course, there would be a four track route allowing Cambridge/Stansted services to get to the "fast" lines between Hackney Downs and Bethnal Green without sharing tracks with the Lea Valley metro.
Ideally, of course, there would be a four track route allowing Cambridge/Stansted services to get to the "fast" lines between Hackney Downs and Bethnal Green without sharing tracks with the Lea Valley metro.
aye, but my "crayon" version would be different- four track from Bethanl Green to Harlow. Tunnel portals 2 for Crossrail just west of Bethnal Green. Have service patterns that see Crossrail trains terminate at Enfield, Hertford, Harlow and Chingford, with some reaching the tunnels via Stratford. Cambridge trains to stop Tottenham Hale, Broxbourne, Harlow then either fast or slow.
The existing plans will still have both local and express trains sharing the tracks through Clapton.
The existing plans will still have both local and express trains sharing the tracks through Clapton.
paulravuslante
Member
Clapham High Street and Wandsworth Road are indeed still ungated.
southern442
Established Member
They normally don't run via Denmark hill and Peckham rye, they run through Herne hill, so adding stops at these stations would be more than a few minutes on to the journey time because you would have to route the train along a completely different line, almost certainly with lower linespeeds, so there would be at least 10-15 minutes added on to journey time.
The hourly Victoria-Gillingham stoppers run via Denmark Hill at the moment, and it adds about 2-3 minutes to the journey time from Victoria-Bromley South via Beckenham Junction. The new proposed Southeastern timetable from December 2014 which is currently out to consultation would see the Gillingham services extended to Dover Priory anyway.
Alongside Penge West and Anerley on the ELL.
Paul Kelly
Verified Rep - BR Fares
Talking about automated announcements, Greater Anglia metro trains (those that actually have them) only do them twice for each stop - once when the train is stopped, to say what that stop is and what the next stop will be, and then once again when approaching the next stop. That is reasonable in my opinion, and the journey is still fairly relaxed.
I was on the Gospel Oak to Barking line at the weekend and witnessed what was mentioned earlier with the announcements made three times for each stop, and I found it surprising how much more irritating that was than the Greater Anglia automated announcements...
I was on the Gospel Oak to Barking line at the weekend and witnessed what was mentioned earlier with the announcements made three times for each stop, and I found it surprising how much more irritating that was than the Greater Anglia automated announcements...
These are the ones which are proposed to also stop at Denmark Hill all of the time, currently one or two do in the morning peak. They're timetabled quite comfortably, so I doubt it'd add anything to the journey time.
And would increase Overground/Thameslink connections (and hospitals access) for Kent passengers.
- Status