VauxhallandI
Established Member
So we will lose the toilets on our line and a large number of seats. Jeez we will be regretting moaning about the rust buckets we lost.
Lose-Lose situation
Lose-Lose situation
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Greater Anglia - Overground takeover
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Eagle
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You're assuming that whatever new stock TfL might order will have longitudinal seating. Sure they seem to be favouring that more recently, but there's still a good chance that it may have more standard seating. Toilets too.
What's very probable is it won't be a carbon copy of the NLL units.
What's very probable is it won't be a carbon copy of the NLL units.
306024
Established Member
Toilets? On units that will do a maximum journey time of about 40 minutes. I wouldn't bet on it.
Why did TfL use tube seating on the Overground 378s. I hate using them, every journey no matter how short is uncomfortable and awkward.
I understand this concept on the actual Underground, where the only thing to look at would be darkness, and the stations are extremely close together. But putting tube seats in an Electrostar that runs on National Rail, outside, is just horrible. I want to just relax and look out of the window but I have to face the scumbag opposite.
/rant
I understand this concept on the actual Underground, where the only thing to look at would be darkness, and the stations are extremely close together. But putting tube seats in an Electrostar that runs on National Rail, outside, is just horrible. I want to just relax and look out of the window but I have to face the scumbag opposite.
/rant
transmanche
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Capacity. You can fit a lot more standing passengers on trains with longitudinal seating.
FWIW, most of the Underground is actually above ground...
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Eagle
Established Member
55% by distance is above ground, although that doesn't include the bits of the subsurface lines that are cut-and-don't-cover, which are underground but still see daylight.
Not quite: most of the trains on the Southbury loop are toilet-less, and the trains from Cheshunt via Tottenham will remain under GA (or their successor's) control. Having said that, I would be disappointed if we had to put up with the sideways seating, even though there isn't much of interest to see on the journey.
Exactly. Most LOROL trains are already full to capacity by New Cross Gate in the morning rush and there are regular delays through doors being blocked. There would be far more people left behind if there wasn't longitudinal seating. 5 cars will improve this shortly, but it wouldn't surprise me if they fill up pretty quickly with all the population increase in London. It's a simple reality now that most people expect to stand on a 40 minute journey in to London.
I agree it's not the most pleasant of experiences for the passenger but it's a simple reality that people living closest to the city also need to get on trains and any other type of seating would seriously reduce capacity. By the time there's a few people standing it's not the faces of people sitting opposite that you would wish to avert your gaze from!
There are currently 61 units used for both the services being discussed here as well as those operating to Shenfield which will be replaced by Crossrail. Crossrail is said to free up 30 units for cascade, so it stands to reason that the other 31 are 30 for the Lea Valley Lines and the mandatory spare unit, probably shared between the two.
Incidentally, 61 units would pretty much enable all the various diesel units used on the services in the Cardiff valleys (x16 class 142, x16 class 143, x36 class 150/2 = 66 units to be scrapped or cascaded off elsewhere, abet they're all two car trains, so 61 4-car trains would still be a near doubling of capacity)
The ELL extension has done Southern a huge favour in the peaks on the London Bridge metro services, while busy, they're not unbearable as they were beforehand, which led to my decision to mainly commute into town using Southern as I can get a seat most of the time on one of the 8 or 10 car services.
However if I use the ELL in the evening peak, I've found it slightly easier to get on at Whitechapel (or in extreme cases Highbury and Islington) where you have a better chance of a seat.
The 5th car addition to the 378s will be interesting to see if I can use Canada Water in the evening peak as at the moment, it's not worth the hassle unless you're working at Canary Wharf or the O2.
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bb21
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Are all NLL stations gated?
Is there anywhere on the LO network that is not gated these days? Clapham High Street and Wandsworth Road?
transmanche
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Most of the Gospel Oak to Barking line stations? (Certainly Upper Holloway, Crouch Hill and Harringay Green Lanes are not gated.)
class303
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every station except Barking and Gospel oak is ungated.
causton
Established Member
Olympia still isn't I assume! Sure there's a few more... Finchley Road and Frognal etc?
Both are now.
I agree about Canada Water, the escalator situation is a mess and needs some action.
Bushey isn't gated, possibly because there are 2 entrances. Watford High Street is, not sure about others North of Harrow & Wealdstone.
MidnightFlyer
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Won't Blackhorse Road be gated or is there a separate entrance for the Goblin line platforms?
An issue which London Underground hasn't really addressed at all. Both of those escalators to the Jubilee line platforms should be in the down position in the morning peak.
It can be quicker to go up to ticket office level and back down instead of waiting for the single down escalator from the northbound ELL platform.
Blackhorse Road is gated.
alwaystouchout
Member
It won't connect well to the other LO lines unless they're making infrastructure changes or providing a new service via the Seven Sisters curve.
Who will be responsible for services between Cheshunt and Hertford East? It appears that TFL won't be responsible for any stations north of Cheshunt but surely whoever gets the overground concession between Liverpool St and Cheshunt would also operate services up to Hertford East wouldn't they?
It's not meant to connect with them. The Watford line dosnt connect with the north London line under normal service, they just cross over in the same way lines will cross the west Anglia lines.
LOROL are not taking this over, responsibility for the lines is moving from the DfT to TfL and being branded as LO. LOROL can bid to run it but equally someone else may end up running it on TfLs behalf, much like happens now with the DfT.
Whenever the topic of London overground comes up on here people start to get confused between TfL, LO and LOROL. They are not one and the same.
Hertford east looks set to stay as part of the GA franchise. TfL have been fairly unsuccessful is going out of the London boundary. They wernt allowed dartford trains for similar reasons, makes rumours of a GN takeover look less as well.
Eagle
Established Member
There's also the Hackney Central–Hackney Downs walkway that's currently being built. I imagine this will become an official interchange in the Tube map (as opposed to just an invisible Oyster OSI which it is at present).
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I can see the arguments either way, especially those services that cross the M25, although personally I think anything that approximates a metro service into London at peak times should be fair game for inclusion under TFL. It's Kent County Council who frightened off the potential Dartford concession. I think it's inevitable that things will get revisited once Crossrail is up and running under the TFL banner and the TFL map of services geographically extends. Rightly or wrongly there's a danger that TOC's which operate existing metro services, particularly in North East and South East London may become poor relations as passengers see the benefits that TFL investment brings, accepting as I do that not everyone likes the LO model, but there's no question that benefits have been brought to the stations they manage even if there are mixed opinions about the current rolling stock.
swt_passenger
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As you say, indeed as hinted at by TfL in their original proposals for takeover of these route, (and the SE Metro), there is basically nothing to stop the same TOC that runs the remaining parts of GA putting in a bid to operate these services under contract to TfL. I'd assume in that case they'd have to ring fence the staff and rolling stock.
Anyone notice some of the comments on the Standard's website? They just about sum up most misconceptions; such as why are they ordering 4 car trains when the rest of the overground is getting 5 car. Or why don't they run these services via the ELL and New Cross Gate. Or, great news, now they can increase frequencies... :roll: Some people still think that a TfL takeover automatically creates new paths where there are none, and track connections that could never practically be built.
The sotw and Bethnal green would be dead easy to gate. Not sure if fileds and heath need gating but isnt it LO policy to gate all or as many of their stations as possible? Be nice to see them staffed for the first time in a long time too.
class303
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my apologies. blackhorse road is gated. i doubt it would be if it wasn't a vic line station, however.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
surely you'd have to gate both sides of the underpass and both side entrances at Walthamstow? 4 lots of gates? Not an easy station imo. Bethnal green easy.
I don't think there's a danger of South East London rail services being poor relations, they already are when you consider the frequency of nearby Southeastern services to those on the ELL extension through the Lewisham borough.
Sydenham 12tph (including 4tph on Southern), Lower Sydenham 4tph, reduces to 2tph during evenings and Sundays, also Penge East which is in walking distance.
Honor Oak Park 12tph (including Southern), Crofton Park 2tph all day.
Clearly the Sydenham line had spare paths and still has 2tph spare for additional services to Crystal Palace, yet a TfL Southeastern concession could have raised the evening service to something along the lines of what NLL/WLL passengers experience during the evenings.
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