Greater Anglia to Abellio - confirmed

[tbtc]

So will that provide initial EMU resources for the NW electification instead of Thameslink 319s? Can we have 360s please?

Not sure how any cascade would work... some NXEA 321s to LM (who already have 321s)... some LM 323s to Northern (who already have 323s)?

Not ideal, but it'd keep "similar" units together...

 

[markydh]

Hardly surprising. When their joint operation with Serco won the Northern franchise, that was on the basis of undercutting everyone else by promising little in the way of investment and we all know how that has gone! I do not want to think about what might happen should they win the West Coast franchise. Glasgow - London in a class 142 anyone? [saracsm alert]

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Hardly surprising. When their joint operation with Serco won the Northern franchise, that was on the basis of undercutting everyone else by promising little in the way of investment and we all know how that has gone! I do not want to think about what might happen should they win the West Coast franchise. Glasgow - London in a class 142 anyone? [saracsm alert]

You can't really blame them for that as almost all the forecasts said either little or no Growth, and they have done an excellent job considering what they have to work with!

 

[sprinterguy]

So will that provide initial EMU resources for the NW electification instead of Thameslink 319s? Can we have 360s please?

Nine trains will hardly stretch very far for the North West electrification.

It is strange, and very disappointing, to see this new franchise being agreed on with a reduction in carriages included, when passenger levels are on an upward trend.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Hardly surprising. When their joint operation with Serco won the Northern franchise, that was on the basis of undercutting everyone else by promising little in the way of investment and we all know how that has gone! I do not want to think about what might happen should they win the West Coast franchise. Glasgow - London in a class 142 anyone? [saracsm alert]

If that is the case then it has now gone to ridiculous levels.

For someone who've been using the traditional Great Eastern areas, we had the good when we had First Great Eastern and Anglia who would actually spend money on the network, to the bad in National Express who spent as little as possible in the life of the franchise, and it seems if this is true, now we will have the ugly who don't want to invest at all and just want to asset-strip for as much profit as possible.

And I thought it couldn't get any worse than National Express.

 

[sprinterguy]

Not sure how any cascade would work... some NXEA 321s to LM (who already have 321s)... some LM 323s to Northern (who already have 323s)?

Not ideal, but it'd keep "similar" units together...

Replacing some of LMs' 323s with 321s would create a micro-fleet of units at Soho depot where the 323s are maintained (or entail a lengthy ECS trip), as the LM 321s are looked after at Bletchley I think. Not an insurmountable problem by many means, as it wasn't all that long ago that Soho depot used to stable and presumably undertake light maintenance on the Silverlink/LM 321s, but potentially a minor hinderance nonetheless.

Would be a useful capacity increase on some services that currently utilise 3-car 323s, and it would probably be possible to turn over just one or two 323 operated routes to total 321 operation (New Street - Birmingham Internation, or Wolverhampton - New Street - Wolves).

 

[87015]

For someone who've been using the traditional Great Eastern areas, we had the good when we had First Great Eastern and Anglia who would actually spend money on the network, to the bad in National Express who spent as little as possible in the life of the franchise, and it seems if this is true, now we will have the ugly who don't want to invest at all and just want to asset-strip for as much profit as possible.

That'd be NX which added a lot more seats to the ex-GE franchise than FGE ever did?
It'll be this Decembers planned changes on the GE which are hit for six by Abellio.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I agree to a point, but the fact is this, in the last year or two we have seen a little more timetable sense but the ones that happened for the few years after they cast their first timetables rather than the ones they inherited were a total disaster with capacity problems all over the place and running 2-3 car units all the way from Peterborough or Lowestoft all the way to London Liverpool Street in replaced of two EMU paths. Sure maybe four trains going through Ipswich an hour was overkill, but wasting a path on a 170 was a joke and really annoyed the hell out of a lot of people.

Also investment is not just in extra trains. Look at the number of liveries going around. Look at the poor standard of refurbishments of the trains that have been refurbished, some of the worst ever. The standard of cleaning of trains is terrible, there was one 360 that was going around for 3 weeks full of Graffiti on the front of the train above the windows, some of the stations have had signs taken away and not replaced, some have been repainted 5 times during the franchise whilst others have not been touched in 10 years.

Around the GE lines the most common colours are FGE Blue and Green and FGE Pink and purple. I'd never been to Clacton or Chelmsford to catch a train until recently, and Chelmsford was full of First corporate colours and Clacton still had a blue and green Welcome to Clacton sign with a FGE logo on the top of the station enterance. The fact is that a lot of the network now needs a long franchise with someone who is going to invest money in doing so rather than starving it of investment in order to pay a premium to the government that is over the top and cannot be achieved without cutting back in other areas.

You ask most people who've used the trains over the last 10-12 years in Essex what has been achieved in NX term and the answer is pretty little and even less people think things are better now than they were those years ago there have been odd improvements in some cases, but an awful lot has been neglected that will need someone in future to actually spend a lot of money on to bring it up to standard. Just look at the roof at Ipswich. Hasn't been cleaned for at least 5 years. Totally filthy. Took them 2 years to replace faulty departure screens in the booking hall.

 

[markydh]

You can't really blame them for that as almost all the forecasts said either little or no Growth, and they have done an excellent job considering what they have to work with!

Yes I can given they made the bid and the government accepted it. First and Arriva's bids both included plans for investment (specifically in pacer replacement). Serco-NedRail didn't, their bid was the cheapest, and the DfT lapped it up. There has been little attempts in making what they do have appealing to the public (the fact that there are plenty of 142s and 156s still running around with tatty, dirty, Northern Spirit interiors is a disgrace). Yes, they've made a bit of effort to rectify their own mistakes but they made their own bed.

 

[tbtc]

Nine trains will hardly stretch very far for the North West electrification

Well, we are often told that it'll be a long time before the (full) Lancashire "triangle" is completed, nine EMUs would maybe cover Manchester Airport - Liverpool and Liverpool - Blackpool (the first routes to be done)?

The bulk of the additional EMUs needed will not be required until the route through Bolton is finished.

Just idle speculation, based on the unverified news that there will be fewer EMUs in operation at the new "Great Eastern" franchise
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Replacing some of LMs' 323s with 321s would create a micro-fleet of units at Soho depot where the 323s are maintained (or entail a lengthy ECS trip), as the LM 321s are looked after at Bletchley I think. Not an insurmountable problem by many means, as it wasn't all that long ago that Soho depot used to stable and presumably undertake light maintenance on the Silverlink/LM 321s, but potentially a minor hinderance nonetheless.

Would be a useful capacity increase on some services that currently utilise 3-car 323s, and it would probably be possible to turn over just one or two 323 operated routes to total 321 operation (New Street - Birmingham Internation, or Wolverhampton - New Street - Wolves).

I accept that its far from an elegant solution, just a stab at how spare NXEA EMUs could allow a cascade to Lancashire (based on the fact that there's no chance of the 360s heading north, if anything leaves it'll be at the older end of the fleet)

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Slightly off topic - but 321 on LM X-City services will not meet the SRT's , gearing all wrong for that. Ditto on the Hadfield line , - so they wont be going there in a hurry. I dont hink Northern could afford 360 sets either ......

 

[Nym]

What about 357s?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Several years ago there was rumours that NX were trying to send the 360's elsewhere to get a uniform fleet of 321s to bring costs down.

I doubt it would be a popular move if it happened now as to lose the only real modern units we do have on the GE Mainline would be a huge kick in the teeth, things are crying out for investment on the mainline, and to strip us of our best units would be a massive kick in the teeh.

 

[HH]

Apparently Abellio won the bid based on the cost savings of using 9 less 4 car units. Other bidders were told that they lost due to their fleet hire costs being too high.

I thought that this Franchise was supposed to be largely a management contract?

The problem with running with less units is that much of the existing fleet is poorly maintained and train failures are rising.

Hope they don't do a FGW.

 

[jopsuk]

"The Fact Compiler" blog seems to be under the impression that it is 317s that'll be going into store...
At the moment there must be rather a lot of slack in the fleet, what with the sixty of them having been augmented with thirty 379s. There's even been a small number sitting out of service for an extended period. Can the December West Anglia timetable be run using 30 379s and 51 317s? What if the proposed use of 317/7s on the GE is dropped?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Several years ago there was rumours that NX were trying to send the 360's elsewhere to get a uniform fleet of 321s to bring costs down.

I doubt it would be a popular move if it happened now as to lose the only real modern units we do have on the GE Mainline would be a huge kick in the teeth, things are crying out for investment on the mainline, and to strip us of our best units would be a massive kick in the teeh.

Ain't going to happen, but in a "what if" mode:
What if LM got seven further 350s to displace their 321s. The seven 321s then get heavily refurbed to be as pleasent as the 360s, and sent to the GE, with seven further going away at a time to be done up. As they finish, start transferring the 360s to FCC GN (if Thameslink link-up and new stock hasn't happened by this stage), refurb their 321s and send em east. As Crossrail happens, send the 360s to FCC GN, the 332s to Northern and send their 321s and 322s to the GE, with FCCs 317s to the WA.

With all the 317s, plus the 379s, would there be enough units to withdraw the 315s from the Lee Valley?

 

[tbtc]

At the moment there must be rather a lot of slack in the fleet, what with the sixty of them having been augmented with thirty 379s

Good point

 

[ginger]

I am so glad you said "what if".....if they properly refurbed the 7 321s and sent them over here and removed the 360s there would be a riot! Can you imagine.....7 units properly refurbed out of a fleet total of 101.......passengers would go NUTS!!!

For YEARS we have been screaming at National Disgrace to PROPERLY refurb the 321/3 and the odd 4s they already have.....

Then they come along with another 17 units (ex LM), desperately try to sell them as "88 new trains".....then rapidly retreat under seriosu flak.....we get them....they have the original NSE threadbare seats full of fleas and various other invertabrates.....heating doesnt work....toilets are worse than a third world slum...and when "customers", Rail User Groups and even MPs complain we have been treated like something that NX Management has just trod on in the street.......the PIS on the 321/3s rarely works!!!! And the toilets on these are quite frankly disgusting for weeks on end.....

Please dont even joke about it!

I appreciate all the reasons behind this statement, but we have the WORST condtion mainline EMUs on the network......

And they are failing on a far more regular basis......the recent C6 overhauls at Wabtec of the entire fleet of 94 units is a joke.....it comprises of bodywork repairs and a steam cleam.....not even new seat covers......every other line using this second generation stock on regular FRONTLINE service has had practically a complete rebuild......

The "new" franchise length is a farce.....and it also leaves us considerably "poorer" passengers (RPI plus 3%) have to suffer another 3 years of trains that are not fit for the 21st century.....why should we continue to suffer while and effectively PAYING for other lines investment????

Well done NX/SRA/Dft.....your legacy will be felt for years!

Rant over.....

 

[Nym]

Do I need to mention all of Northern's un-refurbed 142, 143, 144, 150, 153, 156 and 158 units kicking about up here?

 

[jopsuk]

I am so glad you said "what if".....if they properly refurbed the 7 321s and sent them over here and removed the 360s there would be a riot! Can you imagine.....7 units properly refurbed out of a fleet total of 101.......passengers would go NUTS!!!.

I think you missed the point- the point would be to have ALL the 321s on the Great Eastern AND for them all to have been heavily refurbished- including. the 322s, there would be a fleet of 122 of them

 

[ginger]

Didn't miss the point.......my point is this.....refurbing 7 units properly will take 6-9 months depending on the spec.....

How long will it take to complete 122 units that so desperately need completely new interiors? Especially as the are NO PLANS in the 29 months pathetic to refurb any Class 321s.....only to change a few seat covers.....

At this rate the 2020 deadline for DDA compliance (meaning an effective complete rebuild internally) will easily be missed.......after all the proper 15 year franchise (where we may after 20 odd years get a proper refurb program put in place) wont start until the back end of 2015.....then the tender time for the work....spec...contract award etc etc etc......any refurb program will not get under way until end 2016 at the earliest.....therefore how long to properly refurb a fleet of say 110 units??? You might as well scrap them! Their reliability is rapidly going down the pan as well.......

Same goes for the Cl 317s but a slightly smaller fleet size involed.....

So....taking away the Cl 360s I am sure will cause a riot!!!

Complete cock on behalf of DAFT!!!!

 

[YorkshireBear]

What is this about them getting rid of 15 units im struggling to find any information on it? Is it because of the new 379s?

 

[87015]

What is this about them getting rid of 15 units im struggling to find any information on it? Is it because of the new 379s?

No, it's u can save £m if units go off lease.

 

[YorkshireBear]

No, it's u can save £m if units go off lease.

I get that but i thought east anglia was overcrowded.... and which units are going off lease or is it just the amount that they have announced?

 

[HH]

Just the amount AFAIK.

BTW with regard to Northern, don't forget that this was a joint NED/Serco venture. Serco are experts in low cost management contracts, so it should be no surprise that their bid was how it was.

I think we should see more detail before lambasting Abellio too much.

 

[ginger]

whoever won this "short" caretaker franchise was always going to stick due to the following reasons:

1. the disgusting state that the racketeers at National Disgrace are leaving ALL the infrastructure in due to their negligence over the past 10 years
2. an extremely hostile public due to 1.
3. RPI plus 3% with no "real" improvement on the damage caused by NX
4. some very demoralised staff......

Anything they do is only shuffling the deckchairs on the titanic.....

So far the so called "improvements" they have announced dont even scratch the surface.

I think the "new management" are seriously underestimating the levels of hosility over here.....we seem to go from the National Express / Peter Mandelson "spin" every 5 minutes to silence from Abelio.....even the ERUF have commented that Abelio have gone very quiet regarding their plans to return 15 units back to the ROSCO....

Not a good start in endearing yourself to the travelling public......

 

[HH]

Perhaps they're now thinking, "Ah it's a ghastly mistake" and are desperately trying to think of a way out.

 

[ginger]

As I said earlier in this thread, I think they may have underestimated the strength of feeling over here.......

This is what the Essex Rail Users Fed are reporting tonight......

http://www.eruf.org/

The MPs are now up in arms.......worth reading Bob Russells article on the LibDem link here.....(normally I wouldnt bother)

Apparently the contract is to be signed on Tuesday and looks like the pressure is on the idiots at DAFT and Justine Greening already........she cant ignored tabled questions in parliament......

I think the best comment is from the "well placed senior rail professional.......this line is one of the most profitable and will now an 8.5% increase in season tickets....with the worst fleet in the country"........

I think the Clogs have seriously underestimated all of this....I think they will find very quickly it will explode in their faces......very quickly!

 

[ainsworth74]

I think the Clogs have seriously underestimated all of this

Is there any need to use a racial slur towards Abellios home nation of the Netherlands?

 

[ginger]

certainly not intended to offend - racist is a bit harsh! I have many friends who are Dutch who think that term is quite funny! You should hear what they call us.....

I think some people need to stop being politically correct and get a sense of humour.....Labour lost the election but their legacy seems to live on......

 

[tbtc]

I think the best comment is from the "well placed senior rail professional.......the worst fleet in the country"

Oddly, everyone thinks their local TOC is the worst in the country...

I'd rather have a 315 than a Pacer, for example. Maybe users of Merseyrail would like to suffer from the 360s and 379s on NXEA?

Grass is always greener...