'Greater Anglia train company ditches First Class from 2020'

[Aictos]

What on earth would be the point of that?

Why did Chiltern remove First Class then bring it back renamed as Business Class?

 

[hexagon789]

Why did Chiltern remove First Class then bring it back renamed as Business Class?

Did they ever have it on the Marylebone-Birminghams? I thought the 168s were Std only from new?

 

[dk1]

Why did Chiltern remove First Class then bring it back renamed as Business Class?

Goodness knows. First class is just that. These stupid names annoy me. Can't even get a cup of tea on Chiltern now.

 

[Meerkat]

Was it a cunning ploy to get round company bans on first class travel on expenses?
Or ORCATS gaming?

 

[47421]

I’m surprised it has taken this long to be picked up. It was announced when the trains were ordered over 2 years ago.

Yep, but what is surprising is that the announcement implies that first class will still be generally available until Jan 2020.

The Franchise Agreement sets out the lease start dates for the new units:

IC 10x12 car - May 2019 to Oct 2019
Airport 10x12 car - May 2019 to Nov 2019
Aventra 22x10 car - Feb 2019 to March 2020
Aventra 89x5 car - Feb 2019 to Dec 2019
Bimode 24x4 car - April 2019 to July 2019
Bimode 14x3 car - July 2019 to Dec 2019

So original plan was for all the new units to be in service by Jan 2020 with the exception of a few of the 10 car Aventras. Latest announcement says all in service by end of 2020, so seems programme is running about 12 months late.

 

[samuelmorris]

As I understand it, the 745/755s are almost to schedule, maybe 2-3 weeks behind but obviously a lot more work to do yet, so that could yet slip. I suspect the 745s will be a bit later than this since we're still waiting for one to arrive, 5 months before proposed service entry. The 720s are about 9-10 months late at the moment, but until the extent of the delay to the 710s is known that will continue to increase, as indeed it will for all the other Aventra orders waiting behind it. Unless there are any major incidents I anticipate the Stadler fleet being almost fully introduced and 90s, 170s and Sprinters withdrawn before we see any 720s properly assigned to diagrams.

To that end, 'first class' such as it is on 317s/321s/360s will still be there well into 2020, but I suspect first class tickets will still be withdrawn from sale for those routes at that time and such areas will be declassified. The only way I see the removal of first class being postponed is if not a single 720 has entered service by 1st Jan 2020, in which case they may as well defer it since there won't be any stock turning up without first class for a route someone may have bought a 1st class ticket for. That's definitely a real possibility at this stage.

 

[w1bbl3]

Was it a cunning ploy to get round company bans on first class travel on expenses?
Or ORCATS gaming?

Business class is a standard class ticket with a supplement payable at the (chiltern staffed) station or onboard but curiously not bookable online, company expenses wise the ticket would be eligible for any employer with a standard class travel policy the supplement may not be. I'd expect it would be put down on an expenses claim as something else say wifi etc. The supplement will not be ORCATS eligible so Chiltern will get to keep the full value.
The Chiltern website doesn't allow 1st tickets to be bought and booked for Chiltern service so I'd expect they do not get any ORCATS farebox revenue from 1st anytimes / offpeaks.

Coming back to GA TBH as someone that has used stanex the 1st offering isn't really worth the premium for a slightly bigger seat and fast track security. Maybe coupling it with airport lounge access rather than fastrack would be more appealing and/or improving the on-board offer.

 

[RailWonderer]

So from Feb 19 onwards GA are basically paying a lease for some piles of unassembled aluminium laying about in a warehouse in Derby and a few units running the test track at best.

 

[43096]

So from Feb 19 onwards GA are basically paying a lease for some piles of unassembled aluminium laying about in a warehouse in Derby and a few units running the test track at best.

Are they? Says who? I rather suspect that GA don’t start paying until the trains are accepted by them.

 

[dp21]

Are they? Says who? I rather suspect that GA don’t start paying until the trains are accepted by them.

Correct. Until Q-PAC, GA don't pay a penny.

Also, a lot of conspiracy theory nonsense about 'cost cutting' on here meaning 1st class is out. Utter dribble.

This has been on the DfT's agenda for some time and has been mentioned on here, standard only on 720s and 755s is a franchise deliverable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Abolishing first class would not reduce cost per-se because it will reduce income. It's a capacity thing.

 

[Wivenswold]

To that end, 'first class' such as it is on 317s/321s/360s will still be there well into 2020, but I suspect first class tickets will still be withdrawn from sale for those routes at that time and such areas will be declassified. The only way I see the removal of first class being postponed is if not a single 720 has entered service by 1st Jan 2020, in which case they may as well defer it since there won't be any stock turning up without first class for a route someone may have bought a 1st class ticket for. That's definitely a real possibility at this stage.

If not one 720 has entered service by 1st Jan 2020 there won't be much turning up full stop, the non-Renatus 321s and most of the 317s will already be off lease and non-PRM compliant.

I don't think we should discount the possibility that Aventra orders will be cancelled if alternatives can be sourced at relatively short notice. Probably too late for GA but TOCs for the orders beyond that may be tempted to go for a plan B albeit with relatively off-the-peg designs. It would be horrific timing for those making a point about UK engineering and the country's ability to survive on its own if TOCs cancel UK orders and get their trains from other places in Europe.

We might see a 360 in Greater Anglia colours yet!

 

[samuelmorris]

There'll be a derogation, I'd almost put money on it. I say that because there are a plethora of other TOCs that will be in the same situation. Nobody is ready for it, other than TOCs that didn't have a problem to begin with (e.g. c2c). I see no issue in extending the leases on the existing fleet because, as far as I know, other than for some engineering prototypes e.g. this hydrogen 321 project, nobody is after any of it. The only exception is the 170s which I think it's fairly likely will have been replaced by 755s by the end of next year. 12 months from having 3 or 4 units at the depot for testing to having a fleet of at least 12 units in service should be very doable.

Even if the old stock leases are extended, I think it's highly unlikely Abellio will about-turn on the fleet replacement programme unless they are physically forced to by some manifestation of bailout to keep them afloat. As it stands I can't see anyone who's ordered Aventras changing to an alternative, c2c could probably negotiate taking on the 387/3s permanently if they felt it necessary. The only possibility there is LNWR, but even then, the amount of delay it would cause, I think they'll probably stay put. If we're no further towards getting 710s in service by this time next year, then that may change. Otherwise, business as usual, painful though it is.

 

[MK Tom]

Stansted is predominantly a budget airline (Riotscare, EasyJet) airport, though, isn’t it? That might give some idea of the demand for first class on the airport service.

That said, I cannot daily your logic with the standardisation of the FLIRTs. Having two micro fleets of 10, each with 9 required in service, is just bonkers.

Ryanair flights are used a lot by business travellers though, and cost a lot if you're booking close to departure. I would expect there to be a bit of demand for first class to Stansted for business expense travellers, but equally I'm sure GA have the numbers and have made this decision based on that. The way the fares work on Stansted Express it's basically first class throughout anyway.

 

[43096]

Ryanair flights are used a lot by business travellers though, and cost a lot if you're booking close to departure. I would expect there to be a bit of demand for first class to Stansted for business expense travellers, but equally I'm sure GA have the numbers and have made this decision based on that. The way the fares work on Stansted Express it's basically first class throughout anyway.

If you are flying Riotscare on business, your company policy is unlikely to permit first class travel to the airport!

There is also a big myth about first class travel and business travellers - the vast majority of organisations will mandate standard class travel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ryanair flights are used a lot by business travellers though, and cost a lot if you're booking close to departure. I would expect there to be a bit of demand for first class to Stansted for business expense travellers

Businesses are rapidly deserting First Class and it is becoming very much a leisure or self-upgrade product.

 

[MK Tom]

If you are flying Riotscare on business, your company policy is unlikely to permit first class travel to the airport!

There is also a big myth about first class travel and business travellers - the vast majority of organisations will mandate standard class travel.

As I say a late-booked Ryanair flight is comparable in price to one on a 'proper' airline. I've seen £200 singles for short-hop Ryanair flights.

Totally take your second point though. Which combined with Bletchleyite's reply leads me to conclude that AGA have looked at the figures and seen not enough people using the first class section to financially justify it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I say a late-booked Ryanair flight is comparable in price to one on a 'proper' airline. I've seen £200 singles for short-hop Ryanair flights.

Totally take your second point though. Which combined with Bletchleyite's reply leads me to conclude that AGA have looked at the figures and seen not enough people using the first class section to financially justify it.

It seems lightly used on LNR as well, and I'd figure that at least some of the people using it in fact haven't paid for it, particularly off peak.

Given that LNR is also (in part) an Abellio operation I wouldn't be surprised to see it disappear there too, at least south of Northampton.

 

[Master29]

If it means more seating overall, good decision. On the Colchester, Clacton and Southend trains, I rarely see the tiny 1st class compartments more than about 25% occupied, even at peak.

I get that some will bleat about the lack of choice but this is an overcrowded mass transit system used mostly for commuting rather than a long haul operation.

I guess that the Norwich trains are somewhat beyond the tipping point between the need for capacity and revenue benefits so that seems to make sense. I also guess that Ipswich/Colchester/Chelmsford travellers will have the choice of waiting for the Norwich service Flirts rather than slumming it on the Aventras.

Given they are the same seats I totally agree. Good to keep 1st on the Liverpool St - Norwich too.