Groupsave Refund - Refused by Ombudsman

[danielson00]

See post #31 for Ombundsman Response.

Hi,

I booked 5 x Groupsave off-Peak returns from London Terminals to St Leonards Warrior Square, unfortunately two of the party didnt show up, and even more stupidly I had already collected the tickets so I could not avail myself of Southern's "Rainy Day Policy".

Would I be entitled to a refund for the unused tickets? 3 of us travelled, which is a valid GroupSave group, but not the 5 of us as booked. However our tickets just said "GROUPSAVE" on and didn't specify the number. The guards who checked our tickets didn't bat an eyelid.

I suppose I could fill in the refund form and post them the tickets with it?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Hi,

I booked 5 x Groupsave off-Peak returns from London Terminals to St Leonards Warrior Square, unfortunately two of the party didnt show up, and even more stupidly I had already collected the tickets so I could not avail myself of Southern's "Rainy Day Policy".

Would I be entitled to a refund for the unused tickets? 3 of us travelled, which is a valid GroupSave group, but not the 5 of us as booked. However our tickets just said "GROUPSAVE" on and didn't specify the number. The guards who checked our tickets didn't bat an eyelid.

I suppose I could fill in the refund form and post them the tickets with it?

For the unused two tickets? Perhaps.

 

[bb21]

Yes, you are entitled to a refund in the normal way. There is nothing to suggest you are not.

 

[island]

Yes, you can get a refund for the unused tickets, subject to the usual administration fee.

 

[danielson00]

Southern have just emailed me and refused my claim....

Thank you for submitting your request for the refund of your tickets.

According to the GroupSave terms and conditions, GroupSave tickets are only valid if all passengers travel together. This means a refund can only be processed if all of the tickets have been provided and unused. As 3 out of 5 of your tickets were used I am unable to process a partial refund on your GroupSave tickets.

I understand that this was not the news you were hoping for and I apologise for any inconvenience caused.

I suppose there is not a lot I can do...

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Southern have just emailed me and refused my claim....

Thank you for submitting your request for the refund of your tickets.

According to the GroupSave terms and conditions, GroupSave tickets are only valid if all passengers travel together. This means a refund can only be processed if all of the tickets have been provided and unused. As 3 out of 5 of your tickets were used I am unable to process a partial refund on your GroupSave tickets.

I understand that this was not the news you were hoping for and I apologise for any inconvenience caused.

I suppose there is not a lot I can do...

There is plenty you can do. I would suggest that refusing a refund is not correct, and that you should escalate a complaint within Southern. This can eventually be escalated externally if necessary.

TOCs often like to trample on passengers' rights. There's no need to take it lying down.

 

[danielson00]

Thanks they seem adamant as I booked 5 tickets "grouped" together on one booking, I needed to return 5 tickets. Are there some T&C's somewhere I could quote back at them? Thanks.

 

[Darandio]

Thanks they seem adamant as I booked 5 tickets "grouped" together on one booking, I needed to return 5 tickets. Are there some T&C's somewhere I could quote back at them? Thanks.

You could start by showing them their very own website that mentions nothing of the sort. https://www.southernrailway.com/tickets/discounts-and-railcards/groupsave

Different TOC's are also displaying differing T&C's for the product which I don't feel is right. As an example, Southeastern do fleetingly mention refunds but neglect to mention what the special procedures are. https://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/tickets/ways-to-save/groupsave

Special ticket refund procedures apply for GroupSave

 

[danielson00]

Thanks, how about this as a response:

Thank you for your response.

However - according to https://www.southernrailway.com/tickets/discounts-and-railcards/groupsave

• "A GroupSave gives you a 34% discount when you travel in a group of 3-9 adults" - There were 3 adults travelling. Our tickets did not specify a group size.
• "GroupSave fares are based on groups of three to nine people travelling together at all times"

Therefore I believe I am entitled to a refund on the 2 unused tickets as 3+adults were travelling, thus complying with Groupsave Terms and Conditions. Nowhere on your Terms and Conditions does it specify any refund restrictions.

 

[AlterEgo]

I agree with @danielson00 - Southern are in the wrong here and he has amply satisfied their terms and conditions.

Escalate this - by phone is often easiest.

 

[pdeaves]

Southern have just emailed me and refused my claim....

At least you have a reply that looks like they read your original request...

 

[Darandio]

Given they specifically refer to terms and conditions, we know that the Southern version of these makes no mention of any special refund conditions. What would be a definitive set of terms and conditions for the Groupsave product? I assume the ones in the PDF linked here?

Because although that does list a set of limitations for the product, special conditions for refunds isn't one of them. And if these special refund conditions aren't set out anywhere publicly (unless someone else has found them?) then how on earth can they expect to enforece them? Other than just hoping the passenger will give up.

 

[danielson00]

Just in from Southern.. After I queried the previous decision and quoted the T&Cs (or lack of!) Arghh!


Thank you for your response.

I understand that you would like to claim a refund on two unused Groupsave tickets but your refund has been rejected.

I have taken a look into this for you and I can confirm that Groupsave, Group Travel and Carnet tickets must all be returned unused in order to be eligible to claim for a refund.

Therefore all 5 of the tickets within this 1 booking would have needed to be returned, unused, in order to claim the refund on this booking. I apologise to advise you but as this was not the case, we will not be able to consider a refund for you on this occasion.

I appreciate that you may be dissatisfied with our response but I hope I have been able to clarify the reasons behind the decision made.









Kind regards,

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Just in from Southern.. After I queried the previous decision and quoted the T&Cs (or lack of!) Arghh!


Thank you for your response.

I understand that you would like to claim a refund on two unused Groupsave tickets but your refund has been rejected.

I have taken a look into this for you and I can confirm that Groupsave, Group Travel and Carnet tickets must all be returned unused in order to be eligible to claim for a refund.

Therefore all 5 of the tickets within this 1 booking would have needed to be returned, unused, in order to claim the refund on this booking. I apologise to advise you but as this was not the case, we will not be able to consider a refund for you on this occasion.

I appreciate that you may be dissatisfied with our response but I hope I have been able to clarify the reasons behind the decision made.









Kind regards,

Have they stated that this is a "letter of deadlock" or similar, or referred you to Transport Focus or the Rail Ombudsman?

If yes, proceed to the Ombudsman. If no, escalate it further.

 

[danielson00]

Not yet, its only there 2nd reply, I suppose I have to launch a complaint first as I just replied directly to their initial decision.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Not yet, its only there 2nd reply, I suppose I have to launch a complaint first as I just replied directly to their initial decision.

Ah, ok. In that case, launch an "official complaint"

 

[gray1404]

How did you pay for the tickets?

 

[danielson00]

How did you pay for the tickets?

Hi, I paid online via Southern's Website with a credit card. I posted the tickets back as I had collected them from a machine.

 

[gray1404]

You can now:
ask the Rail Ombudsman to look at it as you have already complained to GTR and given them a chance to look at it again. Or
get back in touch with GTR and ask for this to be looked at by a manager.

When you get back in touch you need to be very clear about how they have not followed the rules correctly. i.e. only 3 people are required to travel to use group save and you still met this requirement. Therefore you are entitled to a refund on the 2 remaining tickets as they are fully unused.

They could charge a £10 administration fee per ticket for the refund.

You can also, in addition to the above, raise a Chargeback request with your bank (if transaction value was below £100) or Section 75 refund (if £100 or more) on the basis that the retailer has not kept to the contract agreed. i.e. that unused tickets can be refunded.

 

[danielson00]

Thank you, I will reply saying I wish to escalate to an official complaint.

 

[philthetube]

I would ask southern to provide a link to the relevant terms and conditions, could be interesting

 

[danielson00]

Update - finally got Deadlock letter from Southern, have now passed on to Rail Ombudsman.

The final deadlock letter still said..

Your correspondence has been passed to us and we are aware that you are not satisfied with the outcome of your refund request.

I can understand your frustration that we have declined your groupsave refund however 3 of the 5 tickets were returned to us.

Unfortunately, there is little more I can add at this time beyond was said previously and I apologise that you feel as though we could not resolve this issue here.

 

[higthomas]

I have taken a look into this for you and I can confirm that Groupsave, Group Travel and Carnet tickets must all be returned unused in order to be eligible to claim for a refund.

Did they ever tell you how they looked and what led to this conformation?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can understand your frustration that we have declined your groupsave refund however 3 of the 5 tickets were returned to us.

Hang on...is this the issue? If 3 out of 5 were returned, only 2 of them would potentially be refundable, because 2 is not a valid GroupSave group?

Indeed, if only 2 travelled, did they technically do so without a valid ticket?

Or is the TOC misunderstanding here?

 

[danielson00]

The 3 of the 5 is from the Southern Deadlock Letter! It should be 2 of 5 returned!!

 

[Hadders]

The OP said in the opening post that 3 people travelled.

 

[gray1404]

5 tickets booked. 3 tickets used. 2 tickets unused.
or
tickets for 5 people booked, 3 people travelled, 2 people didn't travel

Did you also raise a Chargeback claim with your bank if you paid by card?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 3 of the 5 is from the Southern Deadlock Letter! It should be 2 of 5 returned!!

So is the whole problem a misunderstanding of that simple fact?

 

[danielson00]

Until the deadlock letter all correspondence with Southern was correctly stating 3 of 5 travelled , and 2 tickets were returned.

I have updated the ombudsman with this erroneous information in the deadlock letter .

I haven't claimed a chargeback with my bank as I assumed Southern would state the same reply to the bank.

Sorry for the confusion

 

[danielson00]

Ombudsman have gone back to Southern..

On further review into the nature of your complaint, there are elements that we may be able to look into. We have requested a response from the Rail Service Provider and will be in touch in due course with more information.