GSM-R query

[etr221]

I understand that driving cabs are equipped with GSM-R phones, for drivers to communicate with signalmen.

Beyond that, what other voice (or other) communication is possible? Who else has handsets?
Can drivers communicate with Network Rail or TOC controls?
What about guards/conductors? Are their 'offices' (where provided) fitted with GSM-R phones/handsets? Or do they have 'portable' handsets? On what basis would these be issued/held? (By train? By shift (at sign-on)? Semi-permanently?)
And other On-Board Staff?
What about MOMs and other NR/engineering staff who may be 'on or about the line'?
Or are these reliant on the normal 'public' mobile phone network?

 

[Eccles1983]

It cannot make unprogrammed outside calls.

It can contact outside lines, but only those programmed by the TOC/FOC. So TOC control/DTM/BTP/network rail and also every signal box in the country.

It has two phone books. One specifically for network rail and one that is TOC specific.

Each driving cab had one normally, and it's a requirement for any cab that is to be driven from to have one fitted, handheld devices are available but I've never seen one, and would only be issued in very narrow parameters.

A mom/nr staff don't use them when on or near the line. They ring the controlling signaller via mobile or use a lineside telephone.

 

[driver9000]

TOC control centres have GSMR terminals and the rear or intermediate cab of a multiple unit could be used by a Guard or other competent person if need be. It is possible to call control from a GSMR set. It is also possible to turn the radio on in a cab that isn't the leading end if necessary and an unregistered radio will work as long as GSMR-GB is displayed.

 

[Tio Terry]

GSM-R is a Network Rail system, if TOC's want their staff - Guards, Platform Staff etc. - to be equipped they would need to make arrangements with NR to equip them and to pay for the use. I do know that some NR trackside staff have been issued with GSM-R handsets but it seems far more reliance is placed on the public GSM network.

The GSM-R data provision can be used for a number of things including in-cab signalling systems and is used for that purpose on the Cambrian line as a test bed for further use.

 

[O L Leigh]

TOC control centres have GSMR terminals

I'll bow to your knowledge on this one, because the impression I've had from using it to contact control/fleet support/yard supervisors is that it accesses the railway phone network directly and then rings through on their normal railway phones rather than needing a dedicated GSM-R terminal. Certainly I can't imagine that each of the control desks at work has it's own terminal and yet each desk can be accessed directly from the cab over GSM-R.

 

[JN114]

I'll bow to your knowledge on this one, because the impression I've had from using it to contact control/fleet support/yard supervisors is that it accesses the railway phone network directly and then rings through on their normal railway phones rather than needing a dedicated GSM-R terminal. Certainly I can't imagine that each of the control desks at work has it's own terminal and yet each desk can be accessed directly from the cab over GSM-R.

Both are the case.

Drivers can “phone” control on the GSM-R - the calls come through on our standard telephone concentrator, although GSM-R calls are noticeable as they have an unusual number prefix.

However we also have 3 TOC GSM-R terminals: 1 on each of the duty manager’s desk, the maintenance controller’s desk and the customer info desk. Their use is very strictly limited.

Maintenance will use it when dealing with a fault where mobile signal is not good - eg in a tunnel or similar.

Customer Info use it to make PA announcements on stranded DOO trains

Duty Manager will use it to speak with drivers during incident response.

In the cases of maintenance and duty manager they never call the train direct, they send a “Contact Control/Maintenance” GSM-R text message, the driver then calls back when able. Customer Info can only dial in to the PA on the train, but have to take other steps to ensure train is at a stand before using it.

Features like emergency group calls and so on are usually disabled on TOC user accounts for GSM-R fixed terminals, and they are below signaller/ECO in the call priority heirarchy - so a signaller calling the driver for example will just cut control off.

EDIT to add: The Network Rail Route Control Manager has a fixed GSM-R terminal on their desk. That does receive emergency group calls from anywhere on the route, and allows control as a whole to listen in to any emergency broadcasts and start arranging incident response before the call is over and the signaller gets round to reporting it to control.

 

[Ashley Hill]

When I learnt GSM-R I was told that the red emergency button was live at all times even when switched off. Nobody I know has been brave enough to try and prove it. Is the red button live when switched off?

 

[JN114]

When I learnt GSM-R I was told that the red emergency button was live at all times even when switched off. Nobody I know has been brave enough to try and prove it. Is the red button live when switched off?

As long as the radio has power and is connected to the network, it will work - so 99.9% of the time yeah, it will do something.

 

[Ashley Hill]

As long as the radio has power and is connected to the network, it will work - so 99.9% of the time yeah, it will do something.

So if the display is blank (radio switched off) and the REC button is not lit the REC button will still work if pressed?

 

[JN114]

As far as I’m aware yes - the radio still has power, the button still works. Hence why cleaners and the like set them off in depots when a cleaner won’t have the cab “live”

 

[headshot119]

It cannot make unprogrammed outside calls.

It can contact outside lines, but only those programmed by the TOC/FOC. So TOC control/DTM/BTP/network rail and also every signal box in the country.

It has two phone books. One specifically for network rail and one that is TOC specific.

Each driving cab had one normally, and it's a requirement for any cab that is to be driven from to have one fitted, handheld devices are available but I've never seen one, and would only be issued in very narrow parameters.

A mom/nr staff don't use them when on or near the line. They ring the controlling signaller via mobile or use a lineside telephone.

MOMs and other Network Rail staff do use portable GSMR handsets in the course of there duties in several areas around the country, as the coverage is a lot better than for mobile phones.

 

[LowLevel]

So if the display is blank (radio switched off) and the REC button is not lit the REC button will still work if pressed?

No - it only works if the interface has GSMR-GB on it - ie if there is a key in the desk (regardless of registration status) or if the radio has been turned on manually.

If it isn't lit up it won't do anything.

As for access to the interface by traincrew, guards at our TOC can use them on any traction except HST sets and single class 153s by using a middle or the rear cab. They're not fitted to the trailers on HSTs and it is not permitted to access the rear cab of a HST in motion except in an emergency or if you're a fitter and can switch the fire system to manual. Class 153 only have one set of equipment fitted and only one of the two interfaces can be used at a time so if a key is in a desk the interface in the other cab can't be used.

 

[ajs1981]

Customer Info can only dial in to the PA on the train, but have to take other steps to ensure train is at a stand before using it.

Why the need to ensure the train is at a stand for PA announcements? Would the driver hear the announcement on the GSM-R handset, and potentially be distracted, or be unable to use it for other calls?

The thinking behind my question is that the guard will make PA announcements while the train is moving so I presume the limitation is related to the GSM-R rather than the PA system?

 

[JN114]

Why the need to ensure the train is at a stand for PA announcements? Would the driver hear the announcement on the GSM-R handset, and potentially be distracted, or be unable to use it for other calls?

Distraction Potential is the rationale

 

[ComUtoR]

It cannot make unprogrammed outside calls.

It used to be possible but the function is blocked.

 

[carriageline]

On track staff use the portable handsets normally. Primarily in areas with poor phone signal (tunnels are a good example!)

 

[JN114]

No - it only works if the interface has GSMR-GB on it - ie if there is a key in the desk (regardless of registration status) or if the radio has been turned on manually.

If it isn't lit up it won't do anything.

As for access to the interface by traincrew, guards at our TOC can use them on any traction except HST sets and single class 153s by using a middle or the rear cab. They're not fitted to the trailers on HSTs and it is not permitted to access the rear cab of a HST in motion except in an emergency or if you're a fitter and can switch the fire system to manual. Class 153 only have one set of equipment fitted and only one of the two interfaces can be used at a time so if a key is in a desk the interface in the other cab can't be used.

I was under the impression that if you push the red button on a “dead” radio, it’ll attempt to fire up and connect to initiate the emergency call no? Hence the prevalence of cleaners etc setting them off on depots.

 

[pompeyfan]

During my emergency call training we were specifically told we had to turn the radio on to make a REC.

I do keep intending to request further training on how to use the GSMR to communicate with control when normal phone signal is poor, but it’s something that keeps getting pushed back.

Drivers can phone ‘phone a friend’ using their GSM-R phone which comes through to a normal handset.

Finally, it would appear that different NR regions work in different ways, in my patch the RCM doesn’t have a GSMR terminal to intercept calls, but the incident controller does. Having shadowed up there when a REC was initiated, the IC shouted out the location and train headcode, and the. Proceeded to listen in to the call taking notes.

 

[JN114]

During my emergency call training we were specifically told we had to turn the radio on to make a REC.

It’s splitting hairs, but that doesn’t mean the REC button won’t power up the radio - it’s just a best practice that your employer teaches, and indeed one I don’t disagree with.

 

[LowLevel]

I was under the impression that if you push the red button on a “dead” radio, it’ll attempt to fire up and connect to initiate the emergency call no? Hence the prevalence of cleaners etc setting them off on depots.

Our cleaners don't tend to touch the GSM-R full stop but during COVID I've been cleaning them before vacating the cab for the driver, including the emergency button, and haven't yet caused any unintended shut downs. As far as I know, that is!

I suspect the usual answer is either the fitters or cleaners have units with keys in (particularly fitters who seem to be the usual culprits). Our cleaners at one of our out depots are trained to put a key in and start the engines only to allow them to work over night.

 

[Sunset route]

In the cases of maintenance and duty manager they never call the train direct, they send a “Contact Control/Maintenance” GSM-R text message, the driver then calls back when able. Customer Info can only dial in to the PA on the train, but have to take other steps to ensure train is at a stand before using it.

This explains a lot, either the message doesn’t display correctly on the Drivers unit or the Drivers are not reading it correctly. But either way we are getting lots of Drivers calling us in response to a call Signaller message that we haven't sent.

 

[Tomnick]

This explains a lot, either the message doesn’t display correctly on the Drivers unit or the Drivers are not reading it correctly. But either way we are getting lots of Drivers calling us in response to a call Signaller message that we haven't sent.

I've found that a surprising number of drivers don't realise that they can respond to a "contact signaller" message by pressing the 'tick' button and instead use the 'one-to-one' button. No problem most of the time, until the call's routed to someone other than the person who sent the message (either a different signalman or, as here, Control!). Could this be the issue?

 

[Tom Quinne]

It cannot make unprogrammed outside calls.

It can contact outside lines, but only those programmed by the TOC/FOC. So TOC control/DTM/BTP/network rail and also every signal box in the country.

It has two phone books. One specifically for network rail and one that is TOC specific.

Each driving cab had one normally, and it's a requirement for any cab that is to be driven from to have one fitted, handheld devices are available but I've never seen one, and would only be issued in very narrow parameters.

A mom/nr staff don't use them when on or near the line. They ring the controlling signaller via mobile or use a lineside telephone.

NWR staff are issued with mobile GSMR handsets for use in poor coverage areas.

 

[TheEdge]

It’s splitting hairs, but that doesn’t mean the REC button won’t power up the radio - it’s just a best practice that your employer teaches, and indeed one I don’t disagree with.

I can tell you with certainty that jabbing away at the red button on a GSM-R radio with a blank screen does nothing. They need to be powered on in some way.

Unless something has been changed since 2016.

 

[Eccles1983]

NWR staff are issued with mobile GSMR handsets for use in poor coverage areas.

Thanks


Every day is a school day.

 

[DerekC]

I thought I would revive this thread rather than start a new one - can signallers talk through to the onboard PA system to make announcements to passengers via GSM-R? It certainly used to be possible with CSR.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Yes, I’ve never done it though.

 

[FGW_DID]

I thought I would revive this thread rather than start a new one - can signallers talk through to the onboard PA system to make announcements to passengers via GSM-R? It certainly used to be possible with CSR.

Yes, that function is available. i believe anybody who has a GSMR terminal has the ability.

 

[Supercoss]

network rail gsm-r calling pa - Search Videos

www.bing.com

Here is an example of PA being used

 

[Tom Quinne]

Yes, that function is available. i believe anybody who has a GSMR terminal has the ability.

Yes, that’s right. Although as a general rule no one but the controlling signaller will use the base to train facilities of GSMR.

RCM will answer a REC if there is no answer from the signaller though.