GTR cancellations including not operating from Victoria until 10th Jan

[MCSHF007]

Why all the continuous focus on a "wayside halt" like Ockley? Not disputing the annoyance caused to regular users of this station but ...

 

[infobleep]

Seems as though Mitcham Eastfields to Hackbridge will actually end up with a better service than they get in normal times!

As someone else once wrote on here, there are always winners and losers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jan 2022 ==

Southern (nor their parent company) are contractually obliged to run the service…

Being perdentic for a moment, I thought Southern was just a brand.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jan 2022 ==

I don't know the line speeds of that area (well South of Sutton) but generally it's fairly busy route (From Epsom), so not sure how much faster a service would be if it skipped more stations (You'd probably catch up another Metro Train service). Perhaps the limited amount of users (vs the BML) doesn't quite lead to a need for a faster service, rather than a want...

68 Mins vs 52, not exactly much in it really. Brighton to Vic, off peak, can be around 53 mins but is more like 65-68 in the peak with all the stops... yet thats acceptable?

I can appreciate the frustration in the current service terminating earlier than normal (as its a Sat TT bascially) but in this time of shortage of crew, pandemic and all, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...

68 to 52 is 16 minutes. I remember politicians talking about saving 20 minutes off journey times on the Great Western Railway main line. That is closer to 16 minutes.

I'm not saying it should have faster service, I just like to compare to statements on faster service improvements.

When it comes to the needs of the many, do they into account some groups of people. For exa ole do they prioritise what key workers might need or is it just the travelling public at large and if a leisure train was where the traffic is then they get prioritised over a key worker service provision?

 

[phantomphish]

Caterham/Tattenham trains are always 10 cars.

From London Bridge along the Sydenham corridor, yes. However, the 'normal timetable' Cat-only services via Peckham Rye and Tulse Hill are usually 8-car 455's, so those stations on that route currently have trains with more capacity at the moment than pre-Covid. (Even though the platforms along the Portsmouth lines aren't 10-cars long, so the back few probably stay mostly empty from LBG to Streatham Common and vice versa )

 

[Rob Gibson]

Horsham station is not just down the road from Ockley (which is exactly half way between Dorking and Horsham). Its 6.5 miles to the south of my home or a 15 minute drive in normal traffic, which would negate any advantage in travelling there given that the fastest 52 or 53 minute services to London Victoria from Horsham are not exactly rapid.

Also South London Metro is as far as I'm aware a long redundant concept (it used to appear on rail maps but no longer does) that we ceased to be part of south of Dorking when whatever the old sliding door trains without loos were entirely replaced by Electrostar stock several years ago after the power circuits from Dorking to Horsham were also appropriately upgraded and the then semaphore signalling south of Dorking was replaced with modern coloured light signalling and all the old manual signal boxes (eg at Warnham and the manual switching point at Holmwood when trains used to terminate there) on the line done away with.

It is totally and utterly wrong in my view that any stations south of Epsom are treated by GoVia as a part of its slow, stopping at all stations South London Metro service and instead we should be being made a part of Thameslink services via Sutton (see for instance https://news.surreycc.gov.uk/2016/01/08/crossrail-2-could-go-to-dorking-and-should-extend-to-woking/ and this article of some years ago at www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/local-news/go-slow-faster-train-service-4848176) given that Network Rail and GoVia apparently have no ambition whatsoever sort out the ridiculously snail paced blockade to decent train services that is Sutton to Clapham Junction. There is also this proposal for a completely new Mole Valley link to the faster Woking lines in to Waterloo at https://ukrail.blogspot.com/2013/03/mole-valley-link.html

Semi Fast Trains (not stopping Sutton to Clapham Junction but has now become Carshalton to Clapham Junction) used to only take a vaguely acceptable 51 minutes from Ockley to London Victoria back in 1991 but via numerous timetable slowing downs over the years (which now result in trains often waiting at signals in stations waiting for the officially absurdly slow timetabled time to clock round) and the addition of Boxhill as another compulsory stop this has some how shot up to the current outrageously slow 68 minutes.

We still have to pay as much for this lousy service as commuters from Horley pay for a much better four trains an hour service to both Victoria and London Bridge and it seems that those of us living on the Mole Valley lines enjoy a Cinderella service from the GoVia group, who's only focus of recent years seems to have been on ever more passenger capacity rather than faster services. But with the vast permanent drop in passenger numbers it seems to me that the focus ought to switch back to giving those who do travel to London a decent fast service to the Capital............

I think you should count yourself lucky that Dorking to Horsham or certainly the village halts between weren’t closed by Beeching. The line was probably saved by being the only alternative route between London and Gatwick, the service in the 80’s was peak hours Mon to Fri only so the pre Covid service was remarkably good for such a sparsely populated area with high car ownership. The lack of Saturday evening trains is probably an indication that they ran pretty much empty.

The stations are poorly sited: Holmwood isn’t in any of North, Mid or South Holmwood at all and the settlement around it (part of Beare Green) only developed because of the station and it’s location on the old A24 and thus served by the 93 bus Dorking to Horsham. Ockley is a long walk along busy unlit roads without pavements and to Caple means crossing the A24 dual carriageway. Warnham also an unlit no pavement road but with little traffic since the crossing closed to vehicles, also have to cross A24 single carriageway with no island:

Even Dorking and Horsham stations are a way from the town centres while the 93 runs through them all (except Ockley which is quite isolated) hourly early to 7ish Mon to Sat and 2 hourly 9 to 6 Sunday starts/finishes right outside Dorking (main) station.

The area is largely in the Surrey Hills AONB and extraordinarily rural for about 30 miles from the centre of London, probably Green Belt or powerful NIMBY residents prevent any development so there aren’t and never will be passenger numbers to justify a better service, just be thankful there’s any service!

 

[Surreytraveller]

From London Bridge along the Sydenham corridor, yes. However, the 'normal timetable' Cat-only services via Peckham Rye and Tulse Hill are usually 8-car 455's, so those stations on that route currently have trains with more capacity at the moment than pre-Covid. (Even though the platforms along the Portsmouth lines aren't 10-cars long, so the back few probably stay mostly empty from LBG to Streatham Common and vice versa )

The current trains are the Sydenham corridor ones, diverted via Tulse Hill.

 

[zwk500]

Being perdentic for a moment, I thought Southern was just a brand.

Yes, Southern is a brand used by the TOC GTR.

 

[physics34]

Clapham to watford hourly could be achieved im sure but as there are other travel options available its on the back-burner

 

[Bald Rick]

Being perdentic for a moment, I thought Southern was just a brand.

Hence the ‘parent company’ qualifier.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Why all the continuous focus on a "wayside halt" like Ockley? Not disputing the annoyance caused to regular users of this station but ...

Someone who lives there has nothing else to do, due to the rural nature of the area, except whinge about the lack of train service

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I think you should count yourself lucky that Dorking to Horsham or certainly the village halts between weren’t closed by Beeching. The line was probably saved by being the only alternative route between London and Gatwick, the service in the 80’s was peak hours Mon to Fri only so the pre Covid service was remarkably good for such a sparsely populated area with high car ownership. The lack of Saturday evening trains is probably an indication that they ran pretty much empty.

The stations are poorly sited: Holmwood isn’t in any of North, Mid or South Holmwood at all and the settlement around it (part of Beare Green) only developed because of the station and it’s location on the old A24 and thus served by the 93 bus Dorking to Horsham. Ockley is a long walk along busy unlit roads without pavements and to Caple means crossing the A24 dual carriageway. Warnham also an unlit no pavement road but with little traffic since the crossing closed to vehicles, also have to cross A24 single carriageway with no island:

Even Dorking and Horsham stations are a way from the town centres while the 93 runs through them all (except Ockley which is quite isolated) hourly early to 7ish Mon to Sat and 2 hourly 9 to 6 Sunday starts/finishes right outside Dorking (main) station.

The area is largely in the Surrey Hills AONB and extraordinarily rural for about 30 miles from the centre of London, probably Green Belt or powerful NIMBY residents prevent any development so there aren’t and never will be passenger numbers to justify a better service, just be thankful there’s any service!

A very helpful summary indeed. My few travels on it have been on virtually empty trains until you get to Dorking London bound. It must be the least used double tracked electrified line in the UK.

Some very attractive views and vineyard territory ! .

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Sure, but the issue I think is less about Ockley and more about what the obligations of TOCs/DfT to operate trains on lightly used routes actually are under the current rules. We will all recall that Wedgwood and Barlaston, in Staffs, were 'temporarily' closed to faciliate the West Coast Upgrade ... er ... nearly 20 years ago but have neither been re-opened or put through the legal closure procedure. Southern's previous franchise requirements have all been moot ever since the company was switched over to a new emergency contract in Spring 2020. In a situation in which the railway is being asked to make significant savings, stations and lines that are apparently open but are not so in reality could well become more common across the country.

It would be worth considering what an absolute minimum service at Ockley might be eg 2 trains in each of the am and pm peaks M-F? One train per peak? The currently understood definition of a 'parliamentary service' is 1 train per week each way....and on one route it's even less than that.

 

[Class 466]

Will the Victoria to east Croydon use class 387 Gatwick Express stock

There are two 12 car 387 diagrams on it and two 12 car 377 diagrams.

South Croydon stoppers are a mixture of 8 car 455s & 377s.

Victoria to Epsom is a mixture of 10 car 377s and 8 car 455s.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Sure, but the issue I think is less about Ockley and more about what the obligations of TOCs/DfT to operate trains on lightly used routes actually are under the current rules. We will all recall that Wedgwood and Barlaston, in Staffs, were 'temporarily' closed to faciliate the West Coast Upgrade ... er ... nearly 20 years ago but have neither been re-opened or put through the legal closure procedure. Southern's previous franchise requirements have all been moot ever since the company was switched over to a new emergency contract in Spring 2020. In a situation in which the railway is being asked to make significant savings, stations and lines that are apparently open but are not so in reality could well become more common across the country.

It would be worth considering what an absolute minimum service at Ockley might be eg 2 trains in each of the am and pm peaks M-F? One train per peak? The currently understood definition of a 'parliamentary service' is 1 train per week each way....and on one route it's even less than that.

Its not so much about adhering to obligations. There aren't the resources to plan to be able to adhere to obligations. Its about stabilising the service and taking it from there

 

[ashkeba]

I feel as if the services up to Milton Keynes are probably fairly low priority considering the other options between these stations

The other options that involve multiple changes and are between 10 and 40 minutes slower, depending which two stations on the route you are travelling between? And many mean a trip to zone 1 on commuter trains which we surely should not be adding passengers to during the pandemic.

In answer to the previous question, almost no chance of it restarting soon. Relatively few southern crews sign it and it seems always an early casualty of any disruption.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jan 2022 ==

The area is largely in the Surrey Hills AONB and extraordinarily rural for about 30 miles from the centre of London, probably Green Belt or powerful NIMBY residents prevent any development so there aren’t and never will be passenger numbers to justify a better service, just be thankful there’s any service!

Would any of us really be thankful if evening service were withdrawn abruptly from our station without so much as a replacement bus?

 

[Southern Dvr]

Rumours circulating that MKC services Monday-Friday will not return before May timetable. Saturday services (engineering works allowing) will remain to keep crew route knowledge. There is a potential that weekday services from Clapham to Watford may return before May. I would point out that whilst GTR WLL services are not running this is will have an effect on passengers travelling to Westfield at Shepherds Bush.

 

[DavyCrocket]

I note that Southern are refusing to pay Delay Repay for this weeks shambles

 

[Bald Rick]

I note that Southern are refusing to pay Delay Repay for this weeks shambles

for delays? Or for cancellations that were published In advance?

 

[infobleep]

Hence the ‘parent company’ qualifier.

I missed that bit. In my defence it was late.

I do find the line to Horsham useful if attending events there.

In a perfect world, I wouldn't need it if there was still a Guildford to Horsham line but I'm not saying there should be just for me.

Rumours circulating that MKC services Monday-Friday will not return before May timetable. Saturday services (engineering works allowing) will remain to keep crew route knowledge. There is a potential that weekday services from Clapham to Watford may return before May. I would point out that whilst GTR WLL services are not running this is will have an effect on passengers travelling to Westfield at Shepherds Bush.

There are London Overground services running though.

I note that Southern are refusing to pay Delay Repay for this weeks shambles

for delays? Or for cancellations that were published In advance?

I guess it depends on when someone purchased their ticket.

 

[Jan Mayen]

I wonder if I'll get my KeyGo charges refunded, as my season ticket is only valid to Victoria, not London Bridge or Blackfriars!

 

[Class 466]

I note that Southern are refusing to pay Delay Repay for this weeks shambles

If the advertised train isn't late or cancelled, then no you wouldn't be entitled.

 

[infobleep]

I wonder if I'll get my KeyGo charges refunded, as my season ticket is only valid to Victoria, not London Bridge or Blackfriars!

I thought there was ticket acceptance to London Bridge and Blackfraers so the answer would be no.

 

[Jan Mayen]

I thought there was ticket acceptance to London Bridge and Blackfraers so the answer would be no.

That's a shame. There was me diligently tapping in and out as you should with a KeyGo card, so i didn't get charged for incomplete journeys, thinking that was the right thing to do.
I think I'll ask anyway, if only to find out what I should have done, so I'll know better next time! (Hoping there won't actually be a next time, obviously)

 

[Fincra5]

Rumours circulating that MKC services Monday-Friday will not return before May timetable. Saturday services (engineering works allowing) will remain to keep crew route knowledge. There is a potential that weekday services from Clapham to Watford may return before May. I would point out that whilst GTR WLL services are not running this is will have an effect on passengers travelling to Westfield at Shepherds Bush.

If only there was another regular service from Clapham to Shepherds Bush... 1tph from SN hardly makes that much difference.

You can see why the WLL services are lower down the list compared to the rest of the network!

 

[OscarH]

I wonder if I'll get my KeyGo charges refunded, as my season ticket is only valid to Victoria, not London Bridge or Blackfriars!

If I read this right, you've got a season to Victoria and KeyGo on the same Smartcard, and you've been charged for KeyGo journeys because you were diverted to London Bridge/Blackfriars? In that case I disagree with the other poster, ticket acceptance means your season was valid, so surely the KeyGo charges were incorrectly charged and clearly should be refunded - its not your fault their barriers weren't coded to handle the ticket acceptance

As a disclaimer this is written from a common sense point of view, not a technical one

 

[Alex365Dash]

its not your fault their barriers weren't coded to handle the ticket acceptance

To be pedantic, shouldn’t it be the back office that’s the issue? The Key smartcards that have the KeyGo product loaded on them should work with any barrier or validator in the KeyGo validity area - and of course in this case they did, the issue is (or appears to be) that they were charged by the back office system because their season ticket is issued to London Victoria and not London Terminals.

Saying that, I can’t actually find any season tickets on the Southern network issued specifically to London Victoria. What season ticket do they have? Wasn’t looking hard enough!

 

[Surreytraveller]

To be pedantic, shouldn’t it be the back office that’s the issue? The Key smartcards that have the KeyGo product loaded on them should work with any barrier or validator in the KeyGo validity area - and of course in this case they did, the issue is (or appears to be) that they were charged by the back office system because their season ticket is issued to London Victoria and not London Terminals.

Saying that, I can’t actually find any season tickets on the Southern network issued specifically to London Victoria. What season ticket do they have? Wasn’t looking hard enough!

All this is an argument against smart ticketing. At least with a paper ticket, it will be a human being you are arguing with, rather than a computer

 

[OscarH]

To be pedantic, shouldn’t it be the back office that’s the issue? The Key smartcards that have the KeyGo product loaded on them should work with any barrier or validator in the KeyGo validity area - and of course in this case they did, the issue is (or appears to be) that they were charged by the back office system because their season ticket is issued to London Victoria and not London Terminals.

Yep! My bad, thanks for the correction

 

[Surreytraveller]

All this is an argument against smart ticketing. At least with a paper ticket, it will be a human being you are arguing with, rather than a computer

If computers were that clever, they would be programmed to realise that you are making the journey you are making because the railway cannot provide the service you have paid for

 

[Alex365Dash]

All this is an argument against smart ticketing. At least with a paper ticket, it will be a human being you are arguing with, rather than a computer

With a paper ticket being used for widely published ticket acceptance continuing throughout an entire week, it won’t be anyone you’re arguing with - plus you get the additional acceptance on the Underground, where you won’t get past with a Key smartcard unless you happen to have a travelcard loaded on it already.

 

[Surreytraveller]

With a paper ticket being used for widely published ticket acceptance continuing throughout an entire week, it won’t be anyone you’re arguing with - plus you get the additional acceptance on the Underground, where you won’t get past with a Key smartcard unless you happen to have a travelcard loaded on it already.

Exactly. An argument against all this new electronic ticketing