GTR demand £2,100 when travelling on valid Oyster card with Travelcard & PAYG credit

[tintins88]

Hello,

I am new to this forum and have registered as I need some advise.

I live in London and live in Bellingham (zone 3) and travelled to work in Victoria (zone 1) a few months ago. I have a Zone 1-3 Travel Card on my Oster.

A few years back, I have been advised by Southeastern staff that I am allowed to travel with my Zone 1-3 Travel Card through other Zones, as the location of start of journey and the location of the destination matters. The Southeastern member of staff has confirmed that I am allowed to travel from Bellingham to Victoria and change trains in Bromley which is Zone 5, as I don't change stations.

Now a few months ago I chose that route as a quieter alternative and touched in at Bellingham as usual. Then a ticket inspector was on the train to Bromley, from where I would have changed trains to Victoria. He advised me that I was not allowed to do that, and took my details. I apologised and cooperated. Then I suggested to touch out at Bromley as my journey would have been valid as Pay as you Go, but he refused and abruptly took my Oyster Card from me.

Now I first received a letter from Govier Thameslink, asking me to contact them, which I did and I emailed, explaining that I have been advised by Southeastern staff that I am allowed to take this route and that I have occasionally taken it since moving to Bellingham 3 years ago. And I now received a response via email, saying that I will need to pay the difference of Travel Card value over 3 years, at a cost of £2100.00!!

How can this happen? I am utterly shocked and confused. I once again explained my situation and said that I am more than willing to pay a penalty fare for that particular journey, I am however not willing to pay the difference of 3 years worth of travel cards, as I have only occasionally (rarely) travelled through Bromley and was advised by staff that only the stating point and destination matters.

And if you guys think about it, if a Pay as you Go customer travelled that route, they would only be charged for zone 1-3 too!

I am utterly in shock and confused, can you please advise how to proceed from here? I don't have spare £2100 laying around and honestly don't see why I should pay it, as rail staff advised me to take this route with my Zone 1-3 Travel Card.

I haven't received a fine notice number or anything as yet, just a letter requesting me to contact Govier Thameslink Fraud Investigation, and received an email as a follow up stating that I should pay £2100, so I currently can't even appeal as I wasn't given a fine code or reference or anything.

I would so so so appreciate if you could give some advice.

Thanks,
Tim

 

[MikeWh]

The absolutely key question is: Did you have sufficient PAYG credit to make a zone 4-5 journey at the time you were travelling? That's £2.50 peak this year, less if last year or off-peak. If you did then I can see no issue with what you were doing. You can read the conditions of use of Oyster cards on National Rail services. You are absolutely allowed to go outside the zones on your travelcard as long as you stay within the Oyster PAYG area and have sufficent credit for the journey you are making. Furthermore, the only instruction is that you touch in at the beginning and out at the end of your journey. It is up to the system to charge you the appropriate fare.

I have to take issue with the advice of the Southeastern member of staff about travelling outside of the zones on your travelcard. As far as I know that is definitely not valid on paper tickets without an appropriate additional ticket. As Southeastern RPIs used to ching loads of passengers at Dartford with zones 1-6 travelcards who were simply changing between lines I'm also surprised that you were told this. Clarified later on - they were refering to a travelcard on Oyster which is fine.

Can you remember how the conversation went when you were checked on the train to Bromley? It could be key to defending this action.

 

[tintins88]

The absolutely key question is: Did you have sufficient PAYG credit to make a zone 4-5 journey at the time you were travelling? That's £2.50 peak this year, less if last year or off-peak. If you did then I can see no issue with what you were doing. You can read the conditions of use of Oyster cards on National Rail services. You are absolutely allowed to go outside the zones on your travelcard as long as you stay within the Oyster PAYG area and have sufficent credit for the journey you are making. Furthermore, the only instruction is that you touch in at the beginning and out at the end of your journey. It is up to the system to charge you the appropriate fare.

I have to take issue with the advice of the Southeastern member of staff about travelling outside of the zones on your travelcard. As far as I know that is definitely not valid on paper tickets without an appropriate additional ticket. As Southeastern RPIs used to ching loads of passengers at Dartford with zones 1-6 travelcards who were simply changing between lines I'm also surprised that you were told this.

Can you remember how the conversation went when you were checked on the train to Bromley? It could be key to defending this action.

Hello Mike,

Thank you very much for your response, I do appreciate it.

I have just checked my Oyster travel history, and I definitely touched in (and out). I had sufficient PAYG balance of over £7.00 at the time of my journey.

As you have pointed out, Oyster and TFL advise customers who change trains, simply just need to touch in a the start of each journey as well as touch out at the customers destination - which I have done. This is exactly what station staff at Shortlands has informed me of. I vividly remember the conversation as I wanted to make sure that I pay the right fare...:

I walked up to him and explained to him that I come from Bellingham and have a Zone 1-3 Travel Card on my Oyster. And I said to him that I would like to change trains (that day it was at Shortlands which is in Zone 4 or 5 and 1 stop away from Bromley). I asked him if I need to touch out here (at Shortlands) and touch back in again. And he said "No, then you would be charged for two journeys - you are allowed to touch in at Zone 3 and change for a train to Victoria, as long as you always touch in and out."

Now even though I think I did everything correct, as I touched in - I do wonder why they now want to charge me for 3 years of travelling through zone 5, whilst I have only taken that route on 4 or 5 occasions. I feel very ripped off, upset and humiliated, as I double checked with station staff and checked TFL's website!

I'm finding this very appalling.

Do you think they can demand £2100 from me or take me to court over this?

Like already mentioned, I did what I have been advised to do and what is written on TFL'ss website (also indicating that this applies to Rail journeys), but Thameslink do not seem to care.

Kind Regards,
Tim

 

[furlong]

An interesting case. (Oyster having your cake and eating it.) The wording is certainly poor and had the people specifying it so wished, the system could have been set up to default to a higher fare for the particular journey concerned unless you touched particular readers along the way.

Firstly, I think it's hard to find any support for the argument that the travelcard has full validity on journeys where the route passes outside its zones, so I'm not going to comment on that.

3.8 If you are using an Oyster card with a Travelcard season ticket (or tickets) loaded on to it and wish to start your journey from, or travel to, a destination outside the availability of your Travelcard season ticket, or on a route where your season ticket is not valid, you must buy a ticket for your journey.

So you must "buy a ticket for your journey".

However, if your journey begins and ends at a station within the London National Rail Pay As You Go Area, you can follow the instructions set out in 3.19 and 3.20 provided you have sufficient pay as you go credit on your Oyster card to pay for the additional journey(s).

Ah, so you can follow these instructions (if you had "sufficient" PAYG balance) - which seem to replace completely the "buy a ticket" requirement.

3.19 If you have a valid Travelcard on your Oyster card which only covers the start or end of your journey, or only [covers] an intermediate section of it, you can use pay as you go to pay for that part (or those parts) of your journey not covered by your Travelcard, provided that your journey starts, finishes and takes place entirely within the London National Rail Pay As You Go Area. To ensure that you are charged the appropriate pay as you go fare and that the daily cap will, if appropriate, be applied, you must touch in at the start and touch out at the end of your journey when using pay as you go.

Well as the Zone boundary is beyond Bellingham, it doesn't only cover the start or end, nor only an intermediate section, so looks like you can ignore that one. (Alternatively you might try to argue it doesn't "cover" any travel from Bellingham in the direction of Zone 4.)

3.20 If you are using an Oyster card with a Travelcard season ticket on it and you are travelling on a Train Company service to a station beyond the availability of your Travelcard season ticket, but within the London National Rail Pay As You Go Area, you must touch in before you start your journey and have sufficient pay as you go credit on your card to cover the cost of the additional travel.

Now that's a bit better, as it considers only the train you were on, not the final destination of your journey. When stopped, you were "travelling on a Train Company service to a station" (Bromley) "beyond the availability of your Travelcard season ticket". So looks like you satisfied that.

So "the instructions set out in 3.19 and 3.20" appear to have been followed.

(They seem to impose no conditions on the Bromley to Victoria segment - 3.20 doesn't cover travel from a station outside your ticket.)

Then there's the matter of what constitutes "sufficient" credit to cover the "cost of the additional travel". Depending on your reading, that might be the Bellingham to Bromley South fare, or the Bellingham to Sydenham Hill one.

But what about this other problem? When you touch out, the system fails to deduct this "cost of additional travel". Did I miscalculate it and is zero, in fact, the correct additional cost as you claim to have been told originally? Is the contractual requirement somehow merely to have "sufficient" credit, not necessarily actually to pay it so long as you touch in and out correctly? Or is the wrong fare applied erroneously, and if so, to what extent are you liable for a system error that you apparently were led to believe wasn't an error? If it went anywhere near court, you might be able to seek disclosure of pertinent internal documentation regarding the extent, if any, to which the parties involved in Oyster were aware of this particular problem and what assessments they made and actions they took in good faith to inform parties to contracts of travel (passengers) of additional steps they needed to take when making these types of journeys.

 

[tintins88]

Thanks furlong,

.... and TFL do say on their website that even when changing trains, you only need to touch in at the start of the journey and touch out at the destination...

I do realise that this is a bit grey zoned, but thought at the time that it was perfectly ok - I have taken this route on PAYG before and was only charged for Zone 1-3 too.

What irritates me also, as the audit took place on the train from Bellingham to Bromley, I could have easily gotten off at Bromley and paid the PAYG difference, I did have sufficient PAYG credit on my Oyster and touched in.

I really do not see a case why they would fine me, let alone fine me £2100. It's like a bad joke!

 

[furlong]

Do you think they can demand £2100 from me or take me to court over this?

See that figure as an opening gambit in a negotiation.

Firstly, attempt to quantify the loss - they may try to include money (time) spent investigating it on their side.

What is the correct additional fare for each journey? From reading the contractual terms, I still don't yet have a clear answer! 3.50? 2.90? 2.50? something else? zero? 9.90? (Perhaps there might even be documentary evidence that they made a considered decision not to charge for these types of journeys for reasons such as return on investment. Suitable FOI requests sometimes provide revealing responses.)

How many journeys were in fact made by this route and what evidence will each party have to help reach an agreement?

Secondly, to what extent is culpability divided between the parties and will this have an impact on any liability?

(Surely they must have been aware of this type of problem for a very long time? If so, why have they seemingly not updated their systems and the contractual terms to address it without ambiguity from the passenger's point of view? "Too difficult" wouldn't be much of an answer?)

 

[cuccir]

I really do not see a case why they would fine me, let alone fine me £2100. It's like a bad joke!

To get a little bit technical here - this £2100 is not a 'fine' in a legal sense, which applies only to a court ordered punishment. It's a demand from Govia, who are claiming it under the belief that you owe them the money. If you don't think you owe them it you can chose to refuse to pay it.

At that point they can chose to drop the matter or proceed to try and prosecute you in court.

As furlong points out, condition 3.19 refers to a journey (my emphasis)

which only covers the start or end of your journey, or only an intermediate section of it,

Your ticket covered the start and end of your journey, but not the intermediate part of it.

All told there are 3 ways to read conditions 3.8, 3.19 and 3.20 together for your journey:

1. As your journey is not described in condition 3.19, you can ignore it and follow 3.20 only and you had a valid ticket
2. Condition 3.19 is worded poorly and intending to describe any journey where only part of the travel is covered, and you can therefore show you had a valid ticket
3. As your journey does not meet conditions 3.19 AND 3.20, you've not followed condition 3.8 and did not have a valid ticket

We also then have to consider two things:

• Govia are aware of these conditions, and seeking the money following interpretation (3)
• Govia have not considered these conditions, and are seeking the money as they think you were travelling outside of the Travelcard's validity

UNLESS anyone with more experience is aware of any cases, practices or precedents which would suggest that the 3rd interpretation of these conditions above is the one which is followed regularly in practice, my suspicion would be that we are in the second of those latter situations and (therefore) you should respond to Govia, citing the Oyster Conditions of Use on National Rail services, clauses 3.8, 3.19 and 3.20, showing your history which illustrates sufficient credit, and demanding that they drop it. If they are following interpretation (3), that would be a very flimsy case for them to try and take to court, unless it's already an established norm (not precedent, which I don't think Magistrates can set).

As I say - before following that advice, I'd hang around here and get a few more opinions!

A key further point - save/print your Oyster history now so that you have secured your evidence that you had sufficient credit on your card at the time.

 

[MikeWh]

What is the correct additional fare for each journey? From reading the contractual terms, I still don't yet have a clear answer! 3.50? 2.90? 2.50? something else? zero? 9.90?

You only pay for each zone once in any journey, so if you use zones 4-5-4 it's still just a zone 4-5 journey which is currently £2.50 peak.

Also, I now realise that Southeastern were giving the correct advice because they were refering to a travelcard on Oyster. I'll correct my earlier post.

 

[MikeWh]

As your journey does not meet conditions 3.19 AND 3.20, you've not followed condition 3.8 and did not have a valid ticket

I'm not convinced that 3.8 mandates you to meet both 3.19 and 3.20, just that you follow the instructions contained in both of them. Plus, while Bellingham is within the zones covered, there are no further stations within the zones so effectively the journey could be deemed to be commencing outside the zones and only entering the zones at Sydenham Hill.

A similar scenario exists where someone holds a travelcard for zones 2 and 3 and travels from Bellingham to West Hampstead Thameslink. The start and end are covered by the travelcard and the bit in the middle will be deducted from the PAYG credit on touch out at the end. It cannot be the passengers concern that in the scenario discussed on this thread the system decides not to deduct a further charge.

 

[Tetchytyke]

OP, did you definitely touch in and touch out on every journey? Is this recorded in the journey history you can see on the TfL website?

The reason I ask is that it is a known exploit in the Oyster system to have, say, a Z1-2 Travelcard and regularly "forget" to touch in/out at stations further out. When this happens on an Oyster with a Travelcard no fare is charged.

If you have correctly touched in and touched out on the journeys you have made, then I would agree with the advice above. However if you have a significant number of incomplete journeys I would be more concerned.

 

[paddington]

This is a very interesting case.

Details have been changed slightly but my brother had an annual Z2-3 travelcard for many years and did a journey similar to West Brompton to Highbury and Islington, but always actually going via Zone 1, and with sufficient PAYG credit to touch out in Z1 without going negative.

From TfL's perspective, he may have deprived them of the difference between a Z1-2 pass and [a Z2-3 pass minus the cost of (Z3 travel that he didn't have to PAYG for minus Z1 travel that he did have to PAYG for)].

From a moral and perhaps legal perspective, he always had a valid ticket, but he used the ticket in a way that it may not have been intended to be used; yet the revenue managers may have been aware that it could have been used in this way and decided against taking steps to prevent it being used this way.

I wonder how a court might see it and I really want to know how this will turn out

 

[telstarbox]

Is Bellingham - Bromley South - Victoria a permitted route?

It's an unusual situation. For those who don't know the local services, there are non-stop Southeastern trains from Bromley South to Victoria, so at some times of the day this could be the fastest route between Bellingham and Victoria.

 

[yorkie]

This is a very interesting case.

Details have been changed slightly but my brother had an annual Z2-3 travelcard for many years and did a journey similar to West Brompton to Highbury and Islington, but always actually going via Zone 1, and with sufficient PAYG credit to touch out in Z1 without going negative.

From TfL's perspective, he may have deprived them of the difference between a Z1-2 pass and [a Z2-3 pass minus the cost of (Z3 travel that he didn't have to PAYG for minus Z1 travel that he did have to PAYG for)].

From a moral and perhaps legal perspective, he always had a valid ticket, but he used the ticket in a way that it may not have been intended to be used; yet the revenue managers may have been aware that it could have been used in this way and decided against taking steps to prevent it being used this way.

I wonder how a court might see it and I really want to know how this will turn out

Providing you always tap in & out, and providing you have sufficient balance to cover any additional charges TfL may wish to charge (I'd suggest auto top-up to be safe) then providing something underhand isn't going on, you are absolutely valid.

Unfortunately you can't trust revenue inspectors to consistently behave appropriately and/or have adequate knowledge to do their job, on certain routes in the London & South East area. It's very important to know both your rights and your responsibilities and be careful to act correctly at all times. Some inspectors try it on, but you have to remain calm and seek advice here and if you've acted correctly, stand firm and don't give in to the unlawful demands from unscrupulous train companies.

 

[telstarbox]

Now even though I think I did everything correct, as I touched in - I do wonder why they now want to charge me for 3 years of travelling through zone 5, whilst I have only taken that route on 4 or 5 occasions.

On this specific point, would it be up to GTR/Southeastern to prove the number of occasions that the OP had travelled via Bromley?

 

[najaB]

I'm not au-fait with the intricacies of how Oyster works, but I struggle to see the basis for this demand. It appears to me that the OP has complied with the 'letter of the law' (if not the spirit) by having sufficient PAYG credit to cover the portion of their journey for which their travelcard was not valid.

Were I in the OP's positing I would write to GTR summarising the reasoning put forward by cuccir and furlong and request that they drop the matter, stating that I have no intention to pay the amount demanded. Further, I would make clear that if they wish to take the matter to court I intend to mount a defence to any charges raised.

 

[yorkie]

Is Bellingham - Bromley South - Victoria a permitted route?

Yes, if using Oyster witch sufficient PAYG credit and providing you tap in & out correctly.

 

[yorkie]

I'm not au-fait with the intricacies of how Oyster works, but I struggle to see the basis for this demand. It appears to me that the OP has complied with the 'letter of the law' (if not the spirit) by having sufficient PAYG credit to cover the portion of their journey for which their travelcard was not valid..

The OP has complied with all relevant conditions, based on what we've been told.

Only one party is acting against the 'spirit' of the law, and that is the worst train company in Britain.

 

[najaB]

Only one party is acting against the 'spirit' of the law, and that is the worst train company in Britain.

I was using the term quite loosely as it may be that they think the rules mean something other than what they actually say.

 

[RJ]

If I were in the OP's shoes, I wouldn't even entertain this.

Oyster has a PAYG facility on it. There are no rules regarding the route you can take between two stations so long as you touch in at the start of the journey and out at the other end and have sufficient credit to cover the journey.

The fact is, a legal loophole exists where an entirely legitimate journey can take place without the card being charged anything. This occurs when default route between two stations covers less zones than the actual route taken - and a Travelcard covers both ends of the journey. That is the TOC's problem to deal with, but not by way of demanding money from the customer.

As such, my advice to the OP is not to pay them a penny, because you haven't contravened any rules. I'd also keep correspondence as concise as possible. If they're demanding £2100 under these circumstances, you don't want to spend too much time on this. You'd be better off contacting the RDG or TfL, who might be able to negotiate on your behalf.

 

[RJ]

Is Bellingham - Bromley South - Victoria a permitted route?

It's an unusual situation. For those who don't know the local services, there are non-stop Southeastern trains from Bromley South to Victoria, so at some times of the day this could be the fastest route between Bellingham and Victoria.

Probably not if using a paper ticket. However when using Oyster or Contactless, one is free to take any route they like for their journey, so long as it's within the Oyster area.

 

[MikeWh]

Probably not if using a paper ticket. However when using Oyster or Contactless, one is free to take any route they like for their journey, so long as it's within the Oyster area.

... and doesn't exceed the maximum journey time.

 

[SA_900]

If I were in the OP's shoes, I wouldn't even entertain this.

Oyster has a PAYG facility on it. There are no rules regarding the route you can take between two stations so long as you touch in at the start of the journey and out at the other end and have sufficient credit to cover the journey.

The fact is, a legal loophole exists where an entirely legitimate journey can take place without the card being charged anything. This occurs when default route between two stations covers less zones than the actual route taken - and a Travelcard covers both ends of the journey. That is Southeastern's problem to deal with, but not by way of demanding money from the customer.

As such, my advice to the OP is not to pay them a penny, because you haven't contravened any rules. I'd also keep correspondence as concise as possible. If the good people at Southeastern are demanding £2100 when they don't know what they're talking about, reasoning with them will be a waste of time and effort. You'd be better off contacting the RDG or TfL, who may have more luck educating Southeastern's revenue department on how Oyster works.

Yes, I think entering into a lengthy and circular discussion in which the benefit of proof is placed at your feet will waste a great deal of your time.

And TfL have been very helpful whenever I have contacted them for a clarification.

 

[jumble]

Yes, I think entering into a lengthy and circular discussion in which the benefit of proof is placed at your feet will waste a great deal of your time.

And TfL have been very helpful whenever I have contacted them for a clarification.

I agree
If this were me I would send an email into TFL giving a phone number
On 3 occasions I have been messed around by the TFL Call Center and have sent an email moaning one to customer services and two to the TFL comiisioner I have had a call a few days later from a TFL Customer experience Manager who in each case told me thet were very proud of their customer service standards , were sorry they had failed and proved it by sorting my issues on the spot.

The email might describe your journey and ask if you are allowed to make the journey you did and requesting in best Dave Newcastle fashion a simple Yes or No.



Incidently interestingly there are some journeys one can make on contactless where going through OSIs twice confuses the system so much that you don't get charged at all !
( Shan't say where but nothing to do with Heathrow!)

Regards Jumble

 

[tintins88]

Guys, I really appreciate the support and feedback, it's a scary situation to be in.

I have been on the phone to the very same person issuing the letter and letter and whilst he still insist that I did wrong, yet not able to argue against my proof that I have complied with each Oyster Regulation, he is willing to negotiate.

He keeps insisting that I should have touched out at Bromley and touched back in, to pay the right fare, but Oyster states that this is not necessary.

I also have been on the phone to TFL who advised me that I did nothing wrong and should appeal. Unfortunately, I think this is on purpose, they haven't issued me a penalty reference with their claim, so without one, I am unable to appeal.

Anyways, I will keep you posted

Thanks,
Tim

 

[njr001]

I'm no expert but it would appear TFL only hold journey history for eight weeks confirmed by this FOI request https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/personal_oyster_historyso I guess it would be difficult to prove the OP's travel beyond this period.

 

[bb21]

I think RJ pretty much summed up what I was thinking.

It is a pretty big loophole when using Oyster PAYG (but not so much to anyone only interested in going from the origin to the destination and not the journey experience itself), but at the point of the encounter with the RPI, no offence was committed, so I fail to see how any prosecution could succeed.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Ignoring the existence of PAYG momentarily, traditionally the requirement has always been that you MUST hold a Travelcard (or extension) that is valid in ALL the Zones you travel through, regardless of whether you board or alight in a given zone.

The existence of PAYG muddies the water, in that it lets you travel outside the zones your Travelcard covers without having to buy an extension in advance.

I suspect GTR have come up with the £2100 figure based on the OP saying it was a regular occurrence, whereas saying it was a one off MAY have resulted in a proverbial "slap on the wrist".

 

[Greenback]

I agree with RJ and bb21. I wouldn't want to negotiate anything. A prosecution can't succeed as the rules were not broken.

 

[Hadders]

I also agree with RJ and bb21. The OP has done absolutely nothing wrong. There is nothing to negotiate with the train company.

Clearly I don't want to cause any further stress to the OP but it would be quite comical to see this proceed to court and see the train company have to eat humble pie.

 

[Be3G]

Reading this thread almost makes me wish Oyster Extension Permits still existed! For those who don't remember, they were a flag you could set on your Oyster which told it – and any RPIs – that you intended to leave your travelcard's zones so a refundable maximum fare would be deducted when touching in as though PAYG were being used from the start.

Did the removal of OEPs mean that people were no longer allowed to leave their travelcard zones when using PAYG? Of course not. So what's being claimed here is a load of rubbish on the part of GTR.