GTR & LOROL disruption on 18-19 July 2016

Status
Not open for further replies.

tsr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
7,393
Location
Between the parallel lines
For the information of all, and, indeed, sundry:

Disruption on the Southern/TL/GX and LOROL networks this afternoon (18 July 2016) is as follows...

- All lines are blocked at Forest Hill for thorough examination of a sinkhole under the track. This is principally under the Up Fast. Should this disruption continue, services to & from London Bridge will be diverted via South Bermondsey / Tulse Hill, as and when capacity and route knowledge permits (in particular this should include Uckfield & most evening East Grinstead services, a few Horsham trains when crewed by Selhurst conductors, and some Metro services). A few trains are stranded at stations. LO services on the ELL routes are affected.

- A signalling fault (track circuit failure) has been intermittently occurring on the Up Fast at Salfords. Trains are experiencing some congestion when being diverted via the Up Slow. They have to be brought to a stand and talked past a signal at danger on the Up Fast, so it is almost a "toss of a coin" situation at times.

- Both lines at Arundel are currently blocked due to a replacement tamper finishing engineering works which were meant to be completed overnight. This is expected until mid-afternoon at least. Buses are in operation, with some trains diverted via Hove. The original tamper was unable to complete its duties.

EDIT: Update - sinkhole described as "large"; unsure how large that is. Ticket acceptance on Tube, TfL Buses, Southeastern, TL and SWT, all on reasonable routes. Passengers at London Bridge requested to travel from Victoria/Blackfriars were possible. London Bridge-Uckfield services now likely to start/terminate at East Croydon vice LBG. London Bridge-Brighton services likely to run between Gatwick Airport and Brighton only. London Bridge-Horsham services appear to generally be diverted to Victoria, if anywhere.

EDIT 2: Down Slow/Fast already open at Forest Hill!

EDIT 3: Forest Hill sinkhole is reported to be around 50ft deep. Image of the top of it found by following link, courtesy Network Rail's PR team on Twitter: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CnpjybVWAAARSvf.jpg

Signal fault at Salfords reported to be cleared.

Uckfields running to LBG again, via Crystal Palace/Tulse Hill/South Bermondsey.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

blotred

Member
Joined
10 Apr 2015
Messages
59
Thanks for the thorough information tsr.

Is it possible the sinkhole is related to the hot weather or something? </Not a Geology expert>
 

tsr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
7,393
Location
Between the parallel lines
Thanks for the thorough information tsr.

Is it possible the sinkhole is related to the hot weather or something? </Not a Geology expert>

No problem. Really not sure about the answer to your question. I know there have been a number of speed restrictions in the area over the last few months, though IIRC most of those have been on the Down and not Up lines, and I don't think they were specifically to do with any dips in the track, more regarding other defects or incomplete maintenance.

Up Slow/Fast unlikely to reopen today because remedial work would likely be too disruptive to Down traffic. Trapped trains are being removed as ECS, by means of wrong-direction moves if need be (yes, yes, "bang road", etc. ;)).

Regarding other issues, Arundel should now be reopening both ways with speed restrictions.
 
Last edited:

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
6,811
Thanks for the thorough information tsr.

Is it possible the sinkhole is related to the hot weather or something? </Not a Geology expert>

I suspect lots of water given the soggy year(s) recently will have had far bigger effect!

Not sure of the precise location in the FOH area but:
a) there was collapsed sewer under the railway which has given previous grief there.
b) the railway was build on top of a canal and the local geography required the canal divert from the current straight course of the railway line in the station area, as well as locks the brick work for which are apparently still in place.
c) Lots of rain water run off from plateau/hills @ Crystal Palace goes goes under the railway line in 5 places in the FOH area till it eventually goes in the River Pool /Ravensbourne further down hill adjacent to the Hayes line further east.
 
Last edited:

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
5,025
Location
Betchworth, Surrey
Assuming the hole may widen considerably below the surface, that's going to take a lot of filling, presumably requiring the temporary removal of the track.
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
6,811
Assuming the hole may widen considerably below the surface, that's going to take a lot of filling, presumably requiring the temporary removal of the track.

If it is collapsed sewer or underground stream then there will be a lot of work even pre filling in!

I suspect they are looking to see who can do a foam concrete pour overnight / tomorrow in the required quantities.
 

tsr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
7,393
Location
Between the parallel lines
NR have announced on Twitter that the hole is 4m deep and that they are looking to fill it with 50 tonnes of ballast which are en-route to the site.

They also say the situation is "unpredictable"... which is stating the obvious in this part of the world anyway, but it does sound like in this specific instance, there's going to be some experiments to be done before they can say they've fixed the "hole" problem...
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
6,811
NR have announced on Twitter that the hole is 4m deep and that they are looking to fill it with 50 tonnes of ballast which are en-route to the site.

They also say the situation is "unpredictable"... which is stating the obvious in this part of the world anyway, but it does sound like in this specific instance, there's going to be some experiments to be done before they can say they've fixed the "hole" problem...

Holes in this area have a habit of returning... so very wise.
 

Philip Phlopp

Established Member
Joined
31 May 2015
Messages
3,004
A hole has appeared under the track, Network Rail engineers are looking into it.
 

amarshe

Member
Joined
7 Dec 2009
Messages
66
How come London Bridge - West Croydon services are disrupted? I took the overground from Shoreditch to Peckham Rye this evening and passengers were being told to change at Peckham Rye for West Croydon.

Cue a load of confused passengers at Peckham Rye when the departure boards are showing all foreseeable trains in that direction cancelled.

Or have Southern just given up?
 

bicbasher

Established Member
Joined
14 May 2010
Messages
1,570
Location
London
How come London Bridge - West Croydon services are disrupted? I took the overground from Shoreditch to Peckham Rye this evening and passengers were being told to change at Peckham Rye for West Croydon.

Cue a load of confused passengers at Peckham Rye when the departure boards are showing all foreseeable trains in that direction cancelled.

Or have Southern just given up?

Diverted trains. Outer SLL services are also calling at all stations between South Bermondsey and Tulse Hill.
 

tsr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
7,393
Location
Between the parallel lines
Aforementioned sewer now being analysed to see if it can have ballast poured on it... if not, overnight repairs (from 2200ish) may run into problems.
 

neilm

Member
Joined
3 Jan 2012
Messages
493
Aforementioned sewer now being analysed to see if it can have ballast poured on it... if not, overnight repairs (from 2200ish) may run into problems.

Thanks, can you post on here if you get an update?
 

Chrisgr31

Established Member
Joined
2 Aug 2011
Messages
1,608
Aforementioned sewer now being analysed to see if it can have ballast poured on it... if not, overnight repairs (from 2200ish) may run into problems.

Generally speaking sewers are there for a reason, and they do a job. Blocking them with 50 tonnes of ballast would, on the face of it, not appear to be an ideal solution.
 

RAGNARØKR

Member
Joined
1 Jun 2010
Messages
558
Location
Göteborg
Trains services have been disrupted by the appearance of a sink hole at Forest Hill.

I wonder if this has anything to do with the fact that the route generally follows the line of the London to Croydon Canal, which it replaced?

Sections of the canal remain as an ornamental waterway in Penge. The bullrushes growing on the west side of the cutting near Honor Oak Park are another relic of the line's watery past.

For anyone who is interested, there are some old engravings of the Croydon Canal here.
 

tsr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
7,393
Location
Between the parallel lines
Thanks, can you post on here if you get an update?

I'll do what I can. Investigations are trundling on. Anything which can be put in the public domain may only be released in an hour or two.

Generally speaking sewers are there for a reason, and they do a job. Blocking them with 50 tonnes of ballast would, on the face of it, not appear to be an ideal solution.

You are quite right. This sewer turns out to be active rather than disused. If it is not already damaged and the ballast will not put too much weight on it, I should imagine the works can go ahead. But that's a massive "if"...

EDIT - Further information:

Up Slow/Fast to remain closed at Forest Hill. Disruption is expected until close of service tomorrow, 19th July.

Trains will run between London Bridge and Uckfield, Caterham and Tattenham Corner; also East Grinstead in the peak hours.

Up services which normally run via Forest Hill will run via Tulse Hill & South Bermondsey.

Trains to/from Horsham will be diverted to London Victoria. Guessing this probably includes all Southern trains via Redhill but that is very much my assumption.

Coastal services usually running to/from London Bridge likely to be cancelled.

Severe disruption expected; pax advised not to change at East Croydon if possible (they say...!).
 
Last edited:

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
5,025
Location
Betchworth, Surrey
So yesterday's reports of a 50 foot deep hole were a little wide of the mark? I am concerned that pouring ballast or expanded foam concrete onto/into a sewer will not solve the problem! Keep it closed for a little longer and do the right job.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
don't worry... i got it ;)

Recalls the "Sunken Westminster Pier" Goon Show episode where it was said that if the Thames was not cleared quickly "the Government are going to step in..." Cue the retort; "Good riddance to them!"
 

zoneking

Member
Joined
3 Jul 2009
Messages
236
As if things weren't bad enough already for Southern/Thameslink and their passengers, what with the continuing disruption due to staffing issues, last week's fire near Clapham Junction and now this.
Is someone trying to tell them something?
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
6,811
So yesterday's reports of a 50 foot deep hole were a little wide of the mark? I am concerned that pouring ballast or expanded foam concrete onto/into a sewer will not solve the problem! Keep it closed for a little longer and do the right job.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Recalls the "Sunken Westminster Pier" Goon Show episode where it was said that if the Thames was not cleared quickly "the Government are going to step in..." Cue the retort; "Good riddance to them!"

Foam Concrete lorry on site, the hole is conveniently 25m south of the RRV access point roughly where there was a bend in the former canal route to the west.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
25,076
Location
UK
Saw moans this morning saying that the hole is still there, as if to say that it should have been easy to fix and 'what are they doing?'.

I would hope that before just fixing it, they were establishing what caused it, if it could happen elsewhere, and how to fix without causing more problems underneath. Frankly, if they'd just poured concrete in within 30 minutes I'd have been more concerned than hearing it isn't all fixed by start of service this morning.
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
6,811
Latest prediction for re-opening: 18:30 (original target was 15:00)

SN now saying tomorrow
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Saw moans this morning saying that the hole is still there, as if to say that it should have been easy to fix and 'what are they doing?'.

I would hope that before just fixing it, they were establishing what caused it, if it could happen elsewhere, and how to fix without causing more problems underneath. Frankly, if they'd just poured concrete in within 30 minutes I'd have been more concerned than hearing it isn't all fixed by start of service this morning.

I can't remember if this was the sewer that previously collapsed and was relined or is different one (there are plenty in the area). The hole appears to be in the filled in canal alignment itself with the former east embankment/ canal wall stopping issues spreading further east on to the down lines. The sewer (East - West) cuts through the former canal formation and probably can cope with the local man made geology (e.g. canal infill and canal wall /embankment). There was also recent sewer collapse under the South Circular there where the South Circ follows the line of the former canal outside the station entrance (the canal deviated to the west from the current rail alignment in the station area).
 
Last edited:

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
5,025
Location
Betchworth, Surrey
SN now saying tomorrow
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I can't remember if this was the sewer that previously collapsed and was relined or is different one (there are plenty in the area). The hole appears to be in the filled in canal area with the former east embankment/ canal wall stopping issues spreading further east on to the down lines.

I think the previous one was at Sydenham - I seem to recall a TSR on the up slow there several months ago, just after the crossover had been renewed.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top