GTR to be stripped of franchise? DfT to take over according to RBI

[Alteran Ancient]

I would expect that GatX and Southern are a package deal, even after any possible split-up. They were merged prior to the TSGN franchise taking over.

 

[infobleep]

If they are split up, how will that affect the rolling stock and train running? Some Thameslink services run for Southern and Southern for Thameslink.

Wouod separate companies allow such a thing to continue. If not would more services get cancelled as a result due to lack of rolling stock?

 

[hwl]

If they are split up, how will that affect the rolling stock and train running? Some Thameslink services run for Southern and Southern for Thameslink.

Would separate companies allow such a thing to continue. If not would more services get cancelled as a result due to lack of rolling stock?

It would need the 2 seperate TOCs to continue to work extremely closely and run services for each other but as in my post at 1631 there are far more knowns now so would be difficult but not impossible to plan what the TOC would need to do for each other and till when (unlike 5 years ago when franchise structure was considered). I.e. More certainly less = less risk

e.g. 700 delivery rate and 8/12 car batch schedule along with route conversion plan fairly fixed so should be able to come up with something contractual with sufficient flexibility without a huge risk premium and slack targets.

 

[Class377/5]

Don't forget Thameslink has been working with Southeastern for nearly 8 years on joint services.

Also the cascades will need to have thier input so you'd have three TOCs working together on this like pre GTR.

However with departments merging, not sure there is the staff to spilt and have numbers back at the old level.

 

[jon0844]

Also if Southern was split off, what would happen to Gatwick Express? Would they go as well? It might be argued they are as much Southern as Thameslink are, given they are both part of one company that has four brands.

How funny it would be that, finally, there really would be a different operator for Southern as for the Gatwick Express.. but by the time it happened, GatEx had become part of T(S)GN...!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Are there any services on the edge of GTR territory that could go over to another TOC? The only possibility I can think of is the Brighton to Portsmouth and Brighton to Southampton Central services, though I don't know what chunk of them is in SWTs territory and what chunk is in Southern territory

 

[sarahj]

Are there any services on the edge of GTR territory that could go over to another TOC? The only possibility I can think of is the Brighton to Portsmouth and Brighton to Southampton Central services, though I don't know what chunk of them is in SWTs territory and what chunk is in Southern territory

Just passed Havant is the border between SWT and Southern. So a Brighton to Southampton is about 1.20 in Southern land and 30 in SWT land

 

[physics34]

Are there any services on the edge of GTR territory that could go over to another TOC? The only possibility I can think of is the Brighton to Portsmouth and Brighton to Southampton Central services, though I don't know what chunk of them is in SWTs territory and what chunk is in Southern territory

that maybe for the future, but this split of the GTR franchise would be simple. The thameslink transfers (staff and routes) would take priority.....as would the new 2018 timetable changes which are widespread.

Im not sure they would into your suggestion until the next franchise.

 

[HH]

However with departments merging, not sure there is the staff to spilt and have numbers back at the old level.

Bidders had to submit plans for this as it was always envisaged at the end of the franchise. Splitting now would only bring this forward.

 

[AlterEgo]

There's a lot of hand wringing going on in government about this apparently. Removing the franchise from GTR seems a realistic prospect, though I'm not sure anything is imminent.

It's all gone very quiet on the ASLEF/GTR negotiations; I have a source who claims to know nothing about what's going on now.

Quite surprised the government seem to be setting a few wheels rolling with removing the franchise to be honest.

 

[Class377/5]

Bidders had to submit plans for this as it was always envisaged at the end of the franchise. Splitting now would only bring this forward.

possibly splitting not 100%. However splitting now and causing departments that help run the service to be undermanned now would be difficult to replace what had been there before.

Youd risk spending the next year getting things back to where they are now. The difference in 2021 would be a far more stable railway to train people on.

 

[Class377/5]

that maybe for the future, but this split of the GTR franchise would be simple. The thameslink transfers (staff and routes) would take priority.....as would the new 2018 timetable changes which are widespread.

Im not sure they would into your suggestion until the next franchise.

Worth pointing out that the Thameslink services aren't the priority here but the Southern. Of those opinions I gave, two of them left GTR with Thameslink (and GN) and two had Southern removed from GTR. That's telling in itself.

 

[Deepgreen]

Try Reading my post where I say I don't know. Railway press have stated they know but no names given out.

That's the part of which I was unaware.

 

[zn1]

Best thing that can happen to the south central division is this

Remove Gatwick express from it, it needs transferring to BAA to get it back to being a premier service again. I think BAA could make Gatwick express a very good service again..not the joke it is now

Get the South Central Division back to what it used to do best, run 8-12 car trains to brighton and coast way towns. provide a guard on all 12 cars, get it working with other TOCS to provide a service that the Passengers, staff and ORR can be proud of.

The South central (southern) could be a superb TOC, with right management who listen and work with the people it employs and carries it can be again

 

[Carlisle]

Are there any services on the edge of GTR territory that could go over to another TOC? The only possibility I can think of is the Brighton to Portsmouth

Even in BR days Portsmouth-Brighton used central division (Brighton based) EMUs on most services

 

[AlterEgo]

Remove Gatwick express from it, it needs transferring to BAA to get it back to being a premier service again. I think BAA could make Gatwick express a very good service again..not the joke it is now

Why would BAA, a defunct company (they now brand the airports they owned separately), run a train service to their biggest competitor airport at Gatwick, which is owned by GIP?

Get the South Central Division back to what it used to do best, run 8-12 car trains to brighton and coast way towns. provide a guard on all 12 cars, get it working with other TOCS to provide a service that the Passengers, staff and ORR can be proud of.

The South central (southern) could be a superb TOC, with right management who listen and work with the people it employs and carries it can be again

How would that happen? It's aspirational, sure, but how can that be realised?

 

[zn1]

south central use to run in to Southampton via coastway on some jobs, there were a couple of London - Soton jobs and vice versa, unsure if they run now

 

[zn1]

all im saying is get the GATEX back as a seperate entity, make it an "intercity" service.

i know intercity gatwick express is dead as a brand, but lets face it worked, it was the premier service on the south central, it would have worked properly with 442 if it had been done properly

south Central and Intercity used to run in total harmony in BR DAYS..two seperate seperate operation and profit sectors, and it worked absolutely fine..

 

[jon0844]

Why would BAA, a defunct company (they now brand the airports they owned separately), run a train service to their biggest competitor airport at Gatwick, which is owned by GIP?

If GIP was ever interested in taking over the airport trains, and I'm doubtful it would ever have the opportunity anyway, it would presumably not want the 387s as they are now.

They would likely want something that lets them charge a premium and provide a premium service akin to that of HEX - so the time for them to take over would have been when specifying the internal carriage layout.

But then you have to consider that Gatwick isn't Heathrow. Far fewer passengers willing to pay a premium, or travelling on expenses, I'd have thought.

 

[hwl]

all im saying is get the GATEX back as a seperate entity, make it an "intercity" service.

i know intercity gatwick express is dead as a brand, but lets face it worked, it was the premier service on the south central, it would have worked properly with 442 if it had been done properly

south Central and Intercity used to run in total harmony in BR DAYS..two seperate seperate operation and profit sectors, and it worked absolutely fine..

Given that GatEx run half their services all the way to Brighton to best use the limited capacity on the BML, how would you retain the service level to Brighton with Southern prices???

 

[Deepgreen]

possibly splitting not 100%. However splitting now and causing departments that help run the service to be underhanded now would be difficult to replace what had been there before.

Youd risk spending the next year getting things back to where they are now. The difference in 2021 would be a far more stable railway to train people on.

They have been behaving in a very underhanded way for years!

 

[zn1]

the GATEX used to be a non stop job between london vic and Gatwick carrying passengers who paid EXTRA to use it..that was the whole point, you got leg space, a trolley service, stewards a Guard who walked through and place that your luggage was secure in.

On occasion it Might go down to brighton and had a diversion route.

the main gag it was NON STOP, it was a tad quicker than the "plebs" trains a seperate operation from the rest of the division, it was something special and it was a nice little cash cow when operated by British rail

 

[maniacmartin]

I don't think there's enough paths of the Brighton Mainline nowadays to waste paths on trains that only go as far as Gatwick.

 

[physics34]

all im saying is get the GATEX back as a seperate entity, make it an "intercity" service.

i know intercity gatwick express is dead as a brand, but lets face it worked, it was the premier service on the south central, it would have worked properly with 442 if it had been done properly

south Central and Intercity used to run in total harmony in BR DAYS..two seperate seperate operation and profit sectors, and it worked absolutely fine..

disagree..... they run 90% empty at times. Just improve the customer travelling experience. 387s are fine for them, but need better seating, better first class and staff. The journe is not long enough to justify a trolley service.

 

[Deepgreen]

disagree..... they run 90% empty at times. Just improve the customer travelling experience. 387s are fine for them, but need better seating, better first class and staff. The journe is not long enough to justify a trolley service.

I think the fares disparity and other marketing factors (such as the lack of clarity about Southern trains going to Gatwick, especially the inevitable confusion among unfamiliar travellers about trains that split en route) makes the passenger loadings skewed.

Most people will obviously generally try to obtain the cheapest fare and Southern trains will therefore bear an unnaturally high proportion of Gatwick passengers which would otherwise be more evenly spread between green and red trains. The present arrangement essentially leads to a waste of paths in terms of optimum passenger loading per train.

 

[hwl]

the GATEX used to be a non stop job between london vic and Gatwick carrying passengers who paid EXTRA to use it..that was the whole point, you got leg space, a trolley service, stewards a Guard who walked through and place that your luggage was secure in.

On occasion it Might go down to brighton and had a diversion route.

the main gag it was NON STOP, it was a tad quicker than the "plebs" trains a seperate operation from the rest of the division, it was something special and it was a nice little cash cow when operated by British rail

GIP's analysis of current Gatwick users is that there is far smaller market for premium than there once was as a number of Transatlantic flights have transferred to Heathrow and there has been a huge increase at the bottom end with low cost flights. Many passengers also want to Change at East Croydon / Clapham Jn on Vic Services (myself included*) or want London Bridge for the City instead or in the future far more for Thameslink with Crossrail interchange at Farringdon and 10minute quicker journy time than currently to place North of St Pancras.
More southern trains also stop at Gatwick than 2 or 3 decades ago so there is more choice and lots of passengers aren't chosing GatEx for destination or price reasons.

* £4.50 oyster fare ECR to GTW was a nice improvement!

 

[hwl]

I think the fares disparity and other marketing factors (such as the lack of clarity about Southern trains going to Gatwick, especially the inevitable confusion among unfamiliar travellers about trains that split en route) makes the passenger loadings skewed.

Most people will obviously generally try to obtain the cheapest fare and Southern trains will therefore bear an unnaturally high proportion of Gatwick passengers which would otherwise be more evenly spread between green and red trains. The present arrangement essentially leads to a waste of paths in terms of optimum passenger loading per train.

I use Southern beacuse it stops at ECR or CLJ where I can change, GatEx doesn't so I don't use it (why pay more for longer overall journey for me?). Now if you rebuild East Croydon as planned with 8 platforms you can then call GatEx there (but not at CLJ for capacity reasons) which will change GatEx usage a fair bit. It then also become a ECR-VIC PIXC buster in the peaks.

 

[Class377/5]

They have been behaving in a very underhanded way for years!

Bloody spell check! Unmanned.

 

[HH]

Bloody spell check! Unmanned.

They've been working like that too.

 

[paul1609]

GIP's analysis of current Gatwick users is that there is far smaller market for premium than there once was as a number of Transatlantic flights have transferred to Heathrow and there has been a huge increase at the bottom end with low cost flights. Many passengers also want to Change at East Croydon / Clapham Jn on Vic Services (myself included*) or want London Bridge for the City instead or in the future far more for Thameslink with Crossrail interchange at Farringdon and 10minute quicker journy time than currently to place North of St Pancras.
More southern trains also stop at Gatwick than 2 or 3 decades ago so there is more choice and lots of passengers aren't chosing GatEx for destination or price reasons.

* £4.50 oyster fare ECR to GTW was a nice improvement!

I understand that GIPs business strategy is to move towards the premium market. Passenger figures have been increasing at such a rate that if there was justification for a non stop service in BR days there almost certainly is today. There has been a huge increase in inwards tourism almost all of which is destined for central London for which Victoria is better placed than any of the Thameslink Stations.