Guardian: "Penalised train passengers fight ticketing rules"

[Zoe]

The long and the short of this is that there's no "right" answer and different people have differing opinions. And I stand by mine, that the current terms for AP fares aren't appropriate.

Advance fares are limited in availability and if you end up not travelling on the train the TOC would be denied the full revenue you committed to them when you paid for the ticket if you could get a refund or use it towards the cost of another ticket. If all the advance fares for a train are sold then the TOC will expect the full revenue from them, someone not travelling will leave a seat unoccupied. If you hadn't booked this seat and then ended up not travelling, someone else that actually would have travelled could have booked it. By not allowing refunds this prevents any revenue loss from unoccupied seats. Personally I don't like this system but the fact is the railways are a profit making business so preventing any loss of revenue can be expected.

 

[Wolfie]

This tread has been referred to in the comments at the end of the news article, so here's a quote from one of the comments. I can't help thinking the writing's on the wall (and I don't mean Banksy or Tox).

When is someone going to do something to stop the transparent profiteering of these monopolistic, inefficient, subsidy junky rail franchises?

…and therein lies the rub – if the TOCs continue to alienate the public and the media the politicians will act – they will have zero choice as failure to do so will result in the pressure shifting to them!

 

[WelshBluebird]

Why are people defending some of the terms and conditions only mentioning advance tickets?
What about off peak tickets where validity can be a total minefield etc etc?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I believe the argument for Advance fares are two fold.

• The terms are too complicated.
• They have no value after the departure time of the first booked train.

The first hasn't been elaborated on, I can only assume it is an excuse not to like the terms but still want the prices, but for Off-Peak tickets I can understand where people might be coming from in regard to time restrictions. I don't think they are unfair or complicated as such, but they are quite different for different routes and that could cause confusion. The second point isn't really relevant to Off-Peak fares as they have value beyond the first booked train (if one was ever booked).

Most of the issues in the thread, and the article, are advance fare related.

 

[AndyLandy]

Then - don't buy them.

No such thing as "appropriate" and "inappropriate" terms. People have varying opinions on Advance fares. I personally think the cheaper ones represent excellent value.

I can go from Birmingham to London for £6 with London Midland. For £6 I would be more than happy to accept the very restrictive terms of Advance tickets. Namely, I must arrive in time for my train and if I miss it I must buy a new ticket. If I wasn't rail staff, I would buy that Advance ticket; I agree to the terms.

I can go from Swansea to London for £102.50 (a more expensive tier of advance fares) with FGW. The same conditions apply as the £6 ticket, but I must look at the conditions and make a decision as to whether or not I buy that ticket. I note that the Anytime Single is £121.00, and I would prefer to buy the Anytime because the terms (valid on any train, allowing me the risk of sleeping in!), I feel, better fit the price of the ticket in my opinion. I would not buy the Advance ticket in this scenario; I do not agree to the terms.

If you do not agree to the very basic and very easy-to-understand terms of an Advance ticket then do not buy them.

This is precisely the attitude I adopt. It costs £90.60 for the Offpeak return for the journey I usually make. When there are 'advance' fares that cost in the £70-£80 region, I eschew them in favour of the more flexible £90 fare. When they're £50-ish (Or less... Ha! If ever) then I'll take the risk and I'll abide by the terms and conditions of the ticket. I play by the rules, but that doesn't mean I have to like them!

 

[jon0844]

Nobody has to like the rules. We have this special power, all of us, to walk away from a deal with terms we don't like. The power to stick our fingers up to the railway and say 'No! I don't agree to your terms' and buy another ticket type, not travel or travel by other means.

We don't agree to the T&Cs and THEN suddenly decide we don't like them.

 

[Ferret]

Why are people defending some of the terms and conditions only mentioning advance tickets?
What about off peak tickets where validity can be a total minefield etc etc?

That's an argument with far more merit than this gibber about simple to understand (for anyone with even limited intelligence) Advance tickets.

 

[transmanche]

That's an argument with far more merit than this gibber about simple to understand (for anyone with even limited intelligence) Advance tickets.

I think we've all gone down a bit of a side alley in terms of Advance fares and complexity.

Personally, I don't think that Advance fares are complex. I do think they are;

• Poorly advertised
• Should be made more customer-friendly

Poorly advertised in that (The Trainline and others) heavily promote the discounts made by buying in advance - without distinguishing between 'buying an Advance fare' and 'buying an Off-Peak fare in advance'. I think that does confuse travellers, especially irregular travellers.

Made more customer-friendly in the sense of lessening the chance that a customer will have to pay and excessive and disproportionate financial penalty if something goes awry. Whether that's losing a ticket/reservation coupon, missing the train, etc. Suggestions for this have been made in this thread and elsewhere (e.g. pay a 'rescue' fee to change to a later service if you miss the train, a means of issuing tickets on board if the tickets are lost, a means to verify the name of the booked passenger if the reservation coupon is lost, 'rainy day' guarantees and the like).​

I think some adjustments like this are fair and reasonable. And they'll reduce the perception from customers that they're being ripped off. (Because at the end of the day, it doesn't matter who is 'right' or who is 'wrong'. It's the customer's perception which is important if you want to retain their custom - and that of their friends and family.)

And for the record, I agree with WelshBluebird; conditions for Off-Peak tickets are a minefield and really should be regulated.

 

[Greenback]

That's an argument with far more merit than this gibber about simple to understand (for anyone with even limited intelligence) Advance tickets.

I agree. There are so amny thign sabout the fares system that ar ecomplicated, and could be difficult to understand/work out, that Advance tickets are very simple in comparison.

In my view, the argument that Advance tickets should be valid on other services is flawed, and has been shown to be flawed in many posts.

However, this doesn't mean that there not valid arguments about the need for changes or reform to other aspects of the system.

 

[Ferret]

Off peak is a mess. There are far too many restrictions for me to memorise as a Guard, and it'd be far better if the restriction was standardised and the restriction printed on the ticket, in the same way as it is for those non-confusing Advances.

 

[island]

Why are people defending some of the terms and conditions only mentioning advance tickets?
What about off peak tickets where validity can be a total minefield etc etc?

Mainly because travelling at an invalid time on an Off-Peak ticket normally means an excess to the fare one should have paid anyhow, whereas travelling at an invalid time on an Advance means a new ticket and the amount paid for the Advance is forfeited.

 

[Greenback]

The difficulty with restrictions on off peak tickets is finding them and interpreting them correctly in the first place.

 

[Flamingo]

I can go from Swansea to London for £102.50 (a more expensive tier of advance fares) with FGW. The same conditions apply as the £6 ticket, but I must look at the conditions and make a decision as to whether or not I buy that ticket. I note that the Anytime Single is £121.00, and I would prefer to buy the Anytime because the terms (valid on any train, allowing me the risk of sleeping in!), I feel, better fit the price of the ticket in my opinion. I would not buy the Advance ticket in this scenario; I do not agree to the terms.

If you do not agree to the very basic and very easy-to-understand terms of an Advance ticket then do not buy them.

And I saw Advance tickets today, Swa-pad, £11.50 each...

 

[AlterEgo]

And I saw Advance tickets today, Swa-pad, £11.50 each...

Oh yes - I was just picking FGW out of thin air and an Advance fare out of the Manual. A fictitious example.

Wasn't meant to be an illustration as to how expensive or cheap train companies are by comparison. Just to illustrate two random examples where really the consumer has to make a decision between price and flexibility - and whether they agree to the fare conditions (which I maintain, in the case of Advances, are abundantly simple).

 

[jon0844]

Poorly advertised in that (The Trainline and others) heavily promote the discounts made by buying in advance - without distinguishing between 'buying an Advance fare' and 'buying an Off-Peak fare in advance'. I think that does confuse travellers, especially irregular travellers.

Yes, I'd hold the Trainline very responsible, for claiming that they'll save you 40% (or whatever) on train tickets on their TV advertising.

It's misleading because you can really only read that as 40% off the normal ticket price, which means you get the same ticket as somewhere else but at 40% off. Quite a deal if true.

In fact, the small print states they're advanced tickets and the saving is the difference between one ticket and another. Not the same ticket at all. In fact, the advanced tickets cost what they do, so Trainline's discount is actually 0% + the booking fee.

I could almost understand someone wanting an open ticket, seeing that trainline.com offers discounts, booking and not realising (yes, you'd have to be pretty stupid not to notice, but if you think you know what you're getting you might skip certain things). Even when you reserve a seat, you might not realise that you can't change that reservation without changing it in advance and paying more.

 

[Statto]

With the Booking fee included, is the whatever the % off on train tickets by The Trainline misleading, as a few on here have said you can sometimes get better value from the TOCs own site?

For me Advance Tickets are simple, in most cases you can only travel on booked train only.
The only time you can travel on train other than the booked train is, a connecting train to/from or both to the booked train, or another train, if the booked train is servilely delayed or canceled, or connecting train is delayed or canceled meaning you miss your booked train.

 

[Flamingo]

As has been said, the vast majority of people with Advance tickets (and railcards) manage to travel without any problems.

I have to say that the vast majority of people I find in breach of the conditions of either Advance tickets or missing railcards (and I probably deal with around a hundred a month) are quite aware of the conditions, and that they are in breach of them. They just expect to get away with it.

The sad thing is that, with a lot of TOC's, if the passenger shouts loud enough, they do get away with it.

 

[Statto]

As has been said, the vast majority of people with Advance tickets (and railcards) manage to travel without any problems.

I have to say that the vast majority of people I find in breach of the conditions of either Advance tickets or missing railcards (and I probably deal with around a hundred a month) are quite aware of the conditions, and that they are in breach of them. They just expect to get away with it.

The sad thing is that, with a lot of TOC's, if the passenger shouts loud enough, they do get away with it.

Indeed, the Railcard rules are quite clear as well, that you must show Railcards at all times when you travel with Railcard discounted tickets, otherwise everyone will be buying Railcard discounted tickets, when they don't have a Railcard, knowing they'll get away with it.

 

[transmanche]

The sad thing is that, with a lot of TOC's, if the passenger shouts loud enough, they do get away with it.

Which suggests to me that there is a demand from customers for some 'adjustment' of the way Advance fares work, such as those I mentioned earlier - and a tacit acceptance of this by the TOCs.

 

[Flamingo]

Which suggests to me that there is a demand from customers for some 'adjustment' of the way Advance fares work, such as those I mentioned earlier - and a tacit acceptance of this by the TOCs.

Funny, it proves to me that some people think that they deserve special treatment because they have been told they are special, and TOC's are not prepared to stand by the conditions they expect their staff to enforce, in the name of "customer service".

A classic I had a while ago was the young lady (first all charm, then all attitude) who was five hours early on her Advance ticket (she was on a peak train, with a ticket for the last train of the day), and I wasn't more than a yard away before she was screaming down the phone to her mother "I CAN'T BELIEVE HE DIDN'T LET ME AWAY WITH IT, NOBODY HAS EVER CHARGED ME BEFORE".

I then had to deal with the inevitable complaint about my "rudeness", and I'm sure she ended up with travel vouchers and an apology. This was nothing more than blatent abuse of the system, but I'm sure that she read the Guardian story and identified herself as a victim.

 

[transmanche]

Funny, it proves to me that some people think that they deserve special treatment because they have been told they are special, and TOC's are not prepared to stand by the conditions they expect their staff to enforce, in the name of "customer service".

There is, however, a world of difference between the kind of things I suggested as suitable 'adjustments' to the Advance fare product - and people who take the p**s. It's important not to treat the two as the same.

 

[blacknight]

Some passengers have already paid a "rescue fee" in the form of a flexible any time ticket.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

With the Booking fee included, is the whatever the % off on train tickets by The Trainline misleading, as a few on here have said you can sometimes get better value from the TOCs own site?....

Thetrainline told the ASA (when complains were made about there "misleading adverts") that any fees or charges were included in their calculations.

There is, however, a world of difference between the kind of things I suggested as suitable 'adjustments' to the Advance fare product - and people who take the p**s. It's important not to treat the two as the same.

Are you sure? The only suggestion I can recall in this thread is changing the conditions to allow travel on a later train by charging the difference in fares and a fee (feel free to remind me if I forgot something). It has been illustrated in this thread (on a few occasions) how this will not make things better, how the "people who take the p**s" would be treated the same as the "genuine customers" and how it could be detrimental to passengers who can obey the current conditions.

With those "suitable" adjustments, Flamingo's 'young lady' would have been sold an excess and admin fee rather than a new fare, how that is treating the 'p**s takers' any differently I don't know, unless of course you want guards turned into judge and jury? I can't see that getting praise from too many "genuine passengers".

 

[Fare-Cop]

Can someone please give me a straight answer to the following questions:

• What is difficult, unclear, or unfair about the statements "VALID ONLY WITH RESERVATIONS" and "BOOKDTRAINONLY" that appear on the face of all Advance tickets?
  
• What is difficult, unclear, or unfair about the statement "TO BE CARRIED ON ALL RAIL JOURNEYS" that appears on the front of all Railcards?

No special pleadings please.

That is the whole crux of the matter. Generally speaking, complaints only arise when these terms are considered unfair by those whose failure to abide by them causes them difficulty

However, I do agree that it is perhaps at least morally wrong that the advance purchase ticket should have no value whatever when not used in accordance with the T&Cs.

I think a better option should be to charge the appropriate maximum walk-up fare, less the sum paid on the original advance purchase ticket

It is a simple rule, easily understood by everyone.

No other ticket should be used as the basis for excess, just the maximum fare available for the class of travel and journey being made as if no ticket were held.

 

[jon0844]

I really do think my idea of charging an optional fee to be able to upgrade your ticket is the (only) way forward. I'm not saying the current system is wrong, but the industry could still work to do more - especially if it is in their interest from a PR and financial point of view.

It is cheaper than buying an all-new ticket, but still more than simply being able to excess. Thus, not worthwhile always paying this fee and losing money if you can get the train you want (and make the effort).

By having this option, the media will not be able to attack the railway as it will have to ask people 'but didn't you pay the supplement to give (a degree of) flexibility to your ticket?'. It also makes things far easier for staff to deal with.

Websites and TVMs can possibly make things a bit clearer too and everyone is happy, or should be.

I think that for everyone who might always pay the £10 (or whatever) fee to get a flexible ticket for less money than an open ticket in the first place will be massively outweighed by those who pay it as an insurance policy, netting the TOCs a bit of free money. I really do think ATOC should get someone to sit down and do some work to see if this idea is workable.

Now, I'm all for people getting upset about other silly ticket restrictions, including the use of off-peak tickets, minimum fares that make some railcards almost pointless, the trainline.com claiming to be cheaper when in almost every case it will be more expensive... all things the likes of the Guardian and Daily Mail could get its teeth into and actually help all passengers - instead of 'fighting' for non-existent rights that may end up with advance tickets being ditched completely. What a massive 'win' that would be, not.

 

[jkdd77]

The difficulty with restrictions on off peak tickets is finding them and interpreting them correctly in the first place.

I agree that the restrictions on (Super) Off-Peak tickets are often more confusing, (particularly when "starting short" at an intermediate station), than the relatively simple and easy-to-understand restrictions on advance tickets, and the Guardian article would have had more merit if it had focused on these.

To give two examples, what is the first train on from Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington, starting short at BRI in the second example,
on which:
a) a SSR from Bristol Temple Meads to Wellingborough (restriction code CJ), and
b) a SSR from Newton Abbot to London Paddington (restriction code WP)
[both of which permit BoJ on both legs], can validly be used?

 

[island]

Assuming you mean tomorrow, the 0530 train in both cases
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
(a) "Journeys to London Paddington please use_5R, YN, YP, YQ, YU, YW & YX." What a mess!

The only codes of those that refer to Bristol Temple M are YU and YW, which say they are valid from 0945. I can only conclude therefore that first train on which you can use the SSR is the 1000. NRE disagrees with me on this and offers it on the 0800 departure, presumably basing its assessment only on the times the ticket is valid out of STP and failing to consult the cross-references. As Bristol Temple M is outside the Network area the usual exemption allowing any train for the connecting leg within the Network area doesn't come into play.

(b) I say the 1130 to Aberdeen (changing at Bristol Parkway). First direct service would be the 1200 to Paddington. I base this on the fact that those are the first departures from Bristol Temple M which can be validly reached from Newton Abbot departing there after 0915 per restriction WP.

 

[jkdd77]

Assuming you mean tomorrow, the 0530 train in both cases
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
(a) "Journeys to London Paddington please use_5R, YN, YP, YQ, YU, YW & YX." What a mess!

The only codes of those that refer to Bristol Temple M are YU and YW, which say they are valid from 0945. I can only conclude therefore that first train on which you can use the SSR is the 1000. NRE disagrees with me on this and offers it on the 0800 departure, presumably basing its assessment only on the times the ticket is valid out of STP and failing to consult the cross-references. As Bristol Temple M is outside the Network area the usual exemption allowing any train for the connecting leg within the Network area doesn't come into play.

(b) I say the 1130 to Aberdeen (changing at Bristol Parkway). First direct service would be the 1200 to Paddington. I base this on the fact that those are the first departures from Bristol Temple M which can be validly reached from Newton Abbot departing there after 0915 per restriction WP.

(a) I agree with your interpretation, but the fact that NRE disagrees shows that the whole thing is a confusing mess (and, arguably, a passenger planning a journey in good faith ought to be able to rely on information provided by NRE). Indeed, it could be argued that the YU/YW restrictions referred to are intended to refer to 'onward' journeys to/from Paddington via Oxford to the Midlands for destinations such as Derby (which shares the same restriction code for SSR tickets).

(b) It might also be argued that, since restriction code WP does not specifically mention BRI, trains starting from BRI itself (or trains from Bristol Parkway to Paddington originating from South Wales) are unrestricted, on the basis that "travel is permitted unless expressly prohibited".

To return to the original topic, I tend to take the view that passengers sign up to a specific 'deal' with Advance tickets in which flexibility is sacrificed for price. As such, my sympathy with those who demand or expect 'Anytime' flexibility at 'Advance' prices is extremely limited, particularly given the clear potential for abuse.

The one thing I do find slightly 'unfair' is that, when a passenger makes a mistake as to ticket validity, they (may) get stung for an Anytime fare/ PF or prosecuted. If the guard or RPI makes a mistake by refusing to accept a ticket that is actually valid (e.g. Advance on later connecting service because the first booked train was late) then the passenger is often forced to pay and face the hassle (and possible bank charges/ foregone interest) of trying to get their money back.

 

[AndyLandy]

It doesn't help when TOCs come up with these stunning deals...

 

[Clip]

It doesn't help when TOCs come up with these stunning deals...

Doesnt help when linkage doesnt work.. must end in .jpg or .gif

what is the webpage?