Guards Comments when leaving York.

[muz379]

I personally would never make an announcement like this alluding to it being an incompetent signaller , or if as it often is in my case another TOC that is causing the delay to my own service .

Because unless you are the person that is at the front line that knows why that delay has been caused anything could have happened . I remember one day sitting in Huddersfield for a delayed TPE to pass so I could head off back to MCR to end my shift and watching it getting later and later feeling a bit peeved off . Speaking to one of the TPE customer service staff on the station there they informed me someone had spat at the guard and then the driver who had come to the guards aid in removing a passenger who was loud and abusing other passenger . Suddenly the fact that I was going to be getting home 20 minutes later than I expected seemed inconsiderable .

Sometimes signalers do make the wrong call ,but you dont know what else they are dealing with at that time, or they might just be having a bad day . We all do it from time to time I am sure sometimes if a Train leaves somewhere early meaning we have to be stopped at a junction then run through the proceeding section slower after coming to a stand it causes problems for them . It happens at the end of the day .

 

[Eeveevolve]

Reminds me of a Tp guard setting off from Leeds coming over the tannoy.

"Sorry for the delay to this service. This is due to the signaller, in his infinite wisdom, he has allowed a Northern donkey to set off before us. We will be running late until we can overtake at Dewsbury where we will attempt to make time up, but its not looking good."

 

[Welshman]

Reminds me of a Tp guard setting off from Leeds coming over the tannoy.

"Sorry for the delay to this service. This is due to the signaller, in his infinite wisdom, he has allowed a Northern donkey to set off before us. We will be running late until we can overtake at Dewsbury where we will attempt to make time up, but its not looking good."

If you were coming from Leeds, I would have liked to have seen the TPE overtake at Dewsbury.

 

[edwin_m]

Reminds me of a Tp guard setting off from Leeds coming over the tannoy.

"Sorry for the delay to this service. This is due to the signaller, in his infinite wisdom, he has allowed a Northern donkey to set off before us. We will be running late until we can overtake at Dewsbury where we will attempt to make time up, but its not looking good."

But was the TPE already running late and the "donkey" ready to leave on time?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

But was the TPE already running late and the "donkey" ready to leave on time?

The amount of times I am held up at Guide Bridge waiting for a TP (Express *cough) to go across the junction towards Manchester is ridiculous, obviously root causes can vary quite considerably but it always seems to be them (apart from Stoke when we are invariably held up for late running XC or Virgin services)

 

[NX]

Sadly there are quite a few new TPE guards who seem to think their little 3 car trains are the goldern hind of the railway. TPE themselves bread this into them during their training.

NX

 

[HowardGWR]

......TPE themselves bread this into them during their training.

NX

Perhaps they were using their loaf!

 

[Eeveevolve]

But was the TPE already running late and the "donkey" ready to leave on time?

Was a while back. It was in the days where the TP had 21:08 departure and the Stopper had 21:13. So I think the TPE was running a few minutes late.

 

[edwin_m]

Was a while back. It was in the days where the TP had 21:08 departure and the Stopper had 21:13. So I think the TPE was running a few minutes late.

If so it is an example of the type of quandry signallers can find themselves in. If they hold back the Northern service they are delaying a TOC for a problem caused by another TOC - and might also delay the next TPE that will be catching it up en route.

 

[Tom B]

Do signalmen get pressure from NR if their actions cause (or are seen to cause) delays for which they end up being responsible?

I do recall an NXEC (as it then was) guard explaining that our train (1 hour late) had been looped to allow another to pass, because ours was essentially a lost cause for getting back to time, whereas the other one could be kept on time by overtaking us and thus avoid two trainloads of delay-repay claims!

 

[455driver]

Do signalmen get pressure from NR if their actions cause (or are seen to cause) delays for which they end up being responsible?

Yes they do, once all the information is in and they have had a while to look at it 'they' will tell the signaller what he (or she) should have done, even though the signaller might have only had half the information available and him (or her) having to make an instant decision.

Of course the signaller will get it wrong once in a while but overall I think they do a great job working under some ridiculous pressures and some of these TDA clerks should try the signallers job for a couple of hours.

Signallers should be allowed to get on with their job and regulate the flow to minimise delays without fear of some poxy TDA clerk ringing him (or her) up and questioning some decision he (or she) made several hours ago.

 

[Tomnick]

Yes they do, once all the information is in and they have had a while to look at it 'they' will tell the signaller what he (or she) should have done, even though the signaller might have only had half the information available and him (or her) having to make an instant decision.

Of course the signaller will get it wrong once in a while but overall I think they do a great job working under some ridiculous pressures and some of these TDA clerks should try the signallers job for a couple of hours.

Signallers should be allowed to get on with their job and regulate the flow to minimise delays without fear of some poxy TDA clerk ringing him (or her) up and questioning some decision he (or she) made several hours ago.

Are you sure that you're feeling ok over there? We're all becoming a little concerned by all this .

To be fair to our TDAs, they're a good bunch really. Whenever I've had to justify a regulating decision to them, they've listened to me and attributed the delay fairly. Sometimes they'll be disputed by the TOC or FOC, or even another region within NR, that ends up carrying the delay, but usually only if it really was a terrible regulating misjudgement!

Each manager has a budget of delay minutes, so questions are invariably asked of those who attract an O-code. I've only been there once (so far), and it was all handled fairly and without any real pressure (after I'd finished kicking myself, that is).

 

[yorkie]

But was the TPE already running late and the "donkey" ready to leave on time?

Even if so, it's poor regulation (but may not be the signallers' choice!).

And yes, it'd be around Mirfield, not Dewsbury, where the overtaking would occur.

 

[Tomnick]

Even if so, it's poor regulation (but may not be the signallers' choice!).

Was it? Do we know how far apart they were leaving Leeds? Was the margin in front of the following express such that it'd have stuffed that one far more if the stopper was held? Was the 'donkey' in the way of something else? Lots of questions!

 

[yorkie]

Was it? Do we know how far apart they were leaving Leeds? Was the margin in front of the following express such that it'd have stuffed that one far more if the stopper was held? Was the 'donkey' in the way of something else? Lots of questions!

That would be assuming it was literally as stated - that it had just set off immediately in front of it.

Here's another example of poor regulation in that area:

1F64 was 15 late approaching Milford Junction, but was held outside Milford Jn for 1F84. That was poor regulation (for whatever reason).

This meant 1F64 was further delayed behind other trains and got to Leeds at 1006, where it had to reverse and was then departing in the path of 1F84. The result? 1F64 incurred an additional 7 mins delay into Leeds, and 1F84 - which had priority earlier and spent 15 mins at Leeds station - was then late too!

Clearly 1F64 should have gone first. It is a fact there is poor regulation in that area, though I do not know the reasons. It may not be individual staff at fault (it may be that they're understaffed and having to be over-reliant on ARS).

 

[455driver]

Are you sure that you're feeling ok over there? We're all becoming a little concerned by all this .

Most of my problems are that signallers are not allowed to regulate and if they do regulate then the poxy driver will mess the job up by pratting about instead of getting on with it, so next time the signaller wont take the chance.

Despite the 'rivalry' I am firmly of the opinion that we (the people on the ground) are still one big family and should look out for each other.

I still have a bloomin good moan occasionally though!

BR wasnt brilliant but at least you could 'squeeze one more in' and everyone got on with it.

 

[313103]

I use to say this 'Your attention please, I would to apologise on behalf of (toc name) for the delay to this service, this due to a freight/late running/other companies service (delete as appropriate) being routed in front of this one/taking preference over this service' (again delete as appropriate.

 

[Tomnick]

Most of my problems are that signallers are not allowed to regulate and if they do regulate then the poxy driver will mess the job up by pratting about instead of getting on with it, so next time the signaller wont take the chance.

Despite the 'rivalry' I am firmly of the opinion that we (the people on the ground) are still one big family and should look out for each other.

I still have a bloomin good moan occasionally though!

BR wasnt brilliant but at least you could 'squeeze one more in' and everyone got on with it.

I wholeheartedly agree. I still try my best to keep the job moving, even if it involves running one early (or making best use of the available infrastructure) or sticking a couple of minutes into a passenger to avoid stuffing a freight for two or three hours.

There are some who happily admit that, if they had nothing to moan about, they'd moan about the fact that they had nothing to moan about .

 

[Silv1983]

So to add fuel to the fire... this happened to me less than 2 weeks ago:

My Liverpool Lime St express to Airport (class 1) pulls into Manchester Oxford Rd on time.... next stop Piccadilly then the Airport. I was held for 8 minutes to allow a late running TPE express to overtake - even though it was stopping at Heald Green and we weren't (so we are more of an express that it is) . Line speed was 75 max so no danger of slowing it up.... so I presumed we needed to go ontop of it at the airport due to a quick turnaround. NO - it was on another platform to the one we terminated at.

How do my signalling cousins explain that please? There is no logical explanation I can think of...

 

[Tomnick]

As I said (I think), some regulating decisions really are bizarre and defy all attempts at logical explanation!

 

[Welshman]

So to add fuel to the fire... this happened to me less than 2 weeks ago:

My Liverpool Lime St express to Airport (class 1) pulls into Manchester Oxford Rd on time.... next stop Piccadilly then the Airport. I was held for 8 minutes to allow a late running TPE express to overtake - even though it was stopping at Heald Green and we weren't (so we are more of an express that it is) . Line speed was 75 max so no danger of slowing it up.... so I presumed we needed to go ontop of it at the airport due to a quick turnaround. NO - it was on another platform to the one we terminated at.

How do my signalling cousins explain that please? There is no logical explanation I can think of...

I'm not a professional railway person - just an armchair observer - but could it have been something to do with the tight turn-rounds at Manchester Airport for TPE?

The x17s from Blackpool seem to return at x29, and the x47s from Scotland at x00. Sometimes the incoming service is terminated at Piccadilly if it is too late to take up it's return working from the Airport.

 

[IanD]

... TPE themselves bread this into them during their training.

NX

Perhaps they were using their loaf!

We should raise a toast to their trainers. Or give them a grilling.

 

[Jonfun]

My Liverpool Lime St express to Airport (class 1) pulls into Manchester Oxford Rd on time.... next stop Piccadilly then the Airport. I was held for 8 minutes to allow a late running TPE express to overtake - even though it was stopping at Heald Green and we weren't (so we are more of an express that it is) . Line speed was 75 max so no danger of slowing it up.... so I presumed we needed to go ontop of it at the airport due to a quick turnaround. NO - it was on another platform to the one we terminated at.

Using this train at various times of the day to get to work, this happens far more often than it should, albeit not usually as long as 8 minutes. There's one working early on in the morning that's actually booked to sit at Occy Road for ten minutes - more if it's gained time en route - while we wait for a TPE to overtake, for no conceivable reason.

I accept that in this day and age it's far easier for the signalman to run trains booked order than risk making a mistake and ending up in hot water over causing delay, but still, we should be able to trust folk to use their judgement in regulating.

 

[WestRiding]

I do enjoy reading all the posts from 'Self appointed Signalling Experts'! Any one of a manor of things could have happened. Control interferance, regulation policies, TRS and then no movement of the expresses, Signaller doing it by the book because he/she is sick to the back teeth of getting questioned for every 3 mins a train drops on their patch, the platforms that the expresses were in could have been required by other services to the South of the station waiting access (trains have booked platforms, and station staff dont like shifting hundred odd people over the footbridge to a new platform at last min). The list goes on, and the guard sounds very ignorant of the rest of the railway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Even if so, it's poor regulation (but may not be the signallers' choice!).

And yes, it'd be around Mirfield, not Dewsbury, where the overtaking would occur.

But how long should the stopper be held back? So it gets held for a late TP, leaves, say 7 mins late, right in front of the next on time TP that will then be up the stoppers back side by Morely! The stopper has to go at some stage, the North Transpennine route is that busy, something will always get stuffed, usually the Northern services having to wait for TPs

 

[muz379]

Yes they do, once all the information is in and they have had a while to look at it 'they' will tell the signaller what he (or she) should have done, even though the signaller might have only had half the information available and him (or her) having to make an instant decision.

Of course the signaller will get it wrong once in a while but overall I think they do a great job working under some ridiculous pressures and some of these TDA clerks should try the signallers job for a couple of hours.

Signallers should be allowed to get on with their job and regulate the flow to minimise delays without fear of some poxy TDA clerk ringing him (or her) up and questioning some decision he (or she) made several hours ago.

exactly those that are deciding if the signaler has made the right choice or followed the correct course of action in the heat of the moment have the benefit of hindsight and a hot cup of coffee to help ponder the information which makes their decision making a heck of a lot easier .

I do enjoy reading all the posts from 'Self appointed Signalling Experts'! Any one of a manor of things could have happened. Control interferance, regulation policies, TRS and then no movement of the expresses, Signaller doing it by the book because he/she is sick to the back teeth of getting questioned for every 3 mins a train drops on their patch, the platforms that the expresses were in could have been required by other services to the South of the station waiting access (trains have booked platforms, and station staff dont like shifting hundred odd people over the footbridge to a new platform at last min). The list goes on, and the guard sounds very ignorant of the rest of the railway.

Exactly ,

Not to mention shifting 100's of people from one platform to another can lead to additional delays , Ive pulled into stations before where there has been a platform alteration last minute for whatever reason , and then you are held up waiting for people to come from the other platform , even if as some people think you should just close the doors and go at your booked time you cant because the dispatcher if there is one is busy helping move people . Or passengers themselves will hold the doors for friends , relatives and other pax .
Sometimes as a guard you do get frustrated because you are going to be the one who will take the flack off the passengers for any delay to the service .Or yet again you will be getting home late or having a shorter break . But I would never make an unprofessional cheap shot at someone else because you never know the situation they are dealing with and I feel it would make me look unprofessional .. The way I deal with the complaints and delay is just to see it as them having a go at the uniform ,apologize profusely and if there is a reason that I know of offer this forwards as an explanation .

Whenever the service Is delayed I will report it to the delay attribution desk at my TOC's control because its their job to deal with the whys and whats of delays , the way I see things is if there is an incompetent signaler who frequently makes wrong decisions or frequent case where another TOC is delaying our services that is something that some manager somewhere can address looking at patterns rather than me just deciding based off my experience and frustration borne out of just 1 incident

 

[A-driver]

So to add fuel to the fire... this happened to me less than 2 weeks ago:

My Liverpool Lime St express to Airport (class 1) pulls into Manchester Oxford Rd on time.... next stop Piccadilly then the Airport. I was held for 8 minutes to allow a late running TPE express to overtake - even though it was stopping at Heald Green and we weren't (so we are more of an express that it is) . Line speed was 75 max so no danger of slowing it up.... so I presumed we needed to go ontop of it at the airport due to a quick turnaround. NO - it was on another platform to the one we terminated at.

How do my signalling cousins explain that please? There is no logical explanation I can think of...

It may be an agreement between companies. For example FCC/GTA and East coast have an agreement that any East Coast train around 20mins late will be given priority over paths. East Coast pay FCC/GTA for this. So I can be dead on time at woolmer green/digswell/potters bar/Fletton etc and then be held 3 or 4 mins for an East Coast to pass by which is running up to 20 mins late. Even if that makes me miss paths further along.