Guard's Duties when Dispatching Train

[CheesyChips]

Yesterday I was attempting to board the frontmost carriage of a Chiltern Silver train at Birmingham Moor Street which was running about 8 mins late (which may be relevant).

As people were still boarding there seemed to be a bottleneck inside the train which meant the queue to get on the train tailed out onto the platform. At this point the doors began to bleep and close with about 10 people including myself still left outside the train.

I looked down the platform and because of the crowds formed of passengers just getting off the train, the guard at the rear had no way of seeing our door and the queue outside the train.

Firstly, did the guard neglect his duties?

Secondly, should Chiltern be compensating people for having to get a later train? Moreover what if I had been travelling on an advance ticket?

Thank you

 

[455driver]

Or put another way-

We all wanted to get on the front door of the train because that is closest to the exit at our destination station and the guard shut the doors when the other 15 doors were clear because he wasn't prepared to hold a Train full of passengers because of a few that refused to use one of the other 15 doors available!

Would that be a fair appraisal?

 

[bramling]

Yesterday I was attempting to board the frontmost carriage of a Chiltern Silver train at Birmingham Moor Street which was running about 8 mins late (which may be relevant).

As people were still boarding there seemed to be a bottleneck inside the train which meant the queue to get on the train tailed out onto the platform. At this point the doors began to bleep and close with about 10 people including myself still left outside the train.

I looked down the platform and because of the crowds formed of passengers just getting off the train, the guard at the rear had no way of seeing our door and the queue outside the train.

Firstly, did the guard neglect his duties?

Secondly, should Chiltern be compensating people for having to get a later train? Moreover what if I had been travelling on an advance ticket?

Thank you

The answer is it depends.

The guard has no requirement to delay the train to ensure everyone boards, especially if loads of people are trying to use one doorway whilst the rest of the train is available to use. Likewise closing the doors in this situation is perfectly safe - that's what door chimes / hustle alarms are for, and passengers are legally required to not attempt to board whilst doors are closing.

What the guard *is* required to do is carry out a safety check before starting the train. A queue of disappointed passengers left on the platform is not an unsafe situation, but someone with clothing caught in the door or leaning against the side of the train is. Without having been there it's impossible to know if the guard had an adequate view to carry out this check, or what other aids may have been present to assist (eg station staff).

 

[CheesyChips]

Or put another way-

We all wanted to get on the front door of the train because that is closest to the exit at our destination station and the guard shut the doors when the other 15 doors were clear because he wasn't prepared to hold a Train full of passengers because of a few that refused to use one of the other 15 doors available!

Would that be a fair appraisal?

No.

The front of the train stops well past the exit ramp out of the station at Rowley Regis.

I used the door I did because it was the closest door to where I was standing on the platform when the train stopped. Unless I've been catching trains incorrectly for my entire adult life I find that's this is generally a successful approach, especially when the entire platform is crowded.

 

[HowardGWR]

I can't see what this has to do with the forum it appears in?

 

[CheesyChips]

The answer is it depends.

The guard has no requirement to delay the train to ensure everyone boards, especially if loads of people are trying to use one doorway whilst the rest of the train is available to use. Likewise closing the doors in this situation is perfectly safe - that's what door chimes / hustle alarms are for, and passengers are legally required to not attempt to board whilst doors are closing.

What the guard *is* required to do is carry out a safety check before starting the train. A queue of disappointed passengers left on the platform is not an unsafe situation, but someone with clothing caught in the door or leaning against the side of the train is. Without having been there it's impossible to know if the guard had an adequate view to carry out this check, or what other aids may have been present to assist (eg station staff).

That does make sense and I can entirely understand not holding up the train, but the guard had no clear view along the length of the train. It was a very crowded platform.

There were no more people than usual trying to enter through this particular door but there seemed to be some kind of blockage (perhaps somebody stowing luggage) in the aisle so only about 10 people got on before the door was blocked.

Somebody was almost caught in the doors as they had one foot on the train and the other on the platform. They had to jump back

 

[ComUtoR]

Was the Guard you saw the same one as the one who closed the doors ?

Are the doors automatic like Electrostars ?

Was you in the same position as the Guard and had their line of sight when the door close was operated or did you check the Guards position after you heard the hustle alarm ?

If you suspected neglect and there was a danger to passengers. Did you report it ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Somebody was almost caught in the doors as they had one foot on the train and the other on the platform. They had to jump back

Modern power doors will stop if you put your hand firmly in the way. So if that person had blocked the doors they wouldn't have closed. While these are Mk3s they have been retrofitted with modern door systems.

But why did people in the queue not simply move to another door rather than inconsiderately causing delay to the train?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I used the door I did because it was the closest door to where I was standing on the platform when the train stopped. Unless I've been catching trains incorrectly for my entire adult life I find that's this is generally a successful approach, especially when the entire platform is crowded.

Did you look to see if there was a queue at another door, and if not walk along to that?

If not, why not?

 

[NX]

Yesterday I was attempting to board the frontmost carriage of a Chiltern Silver train at Birmingham Moor Street which was running about 8 mins late (which may be relevant).

As people were still boarding there seemed to be a bottleneck inside the train which meant the queue to get on the train tailed out onto the platform. At this point the doors began to bleep and close with about 10 people including myself still left outside the train.

I looked down the platform and because of the crowds formed of passengers just getting off the train, the guard at the rear had no way of seeing our door and the queue outside the train.

Firstly, did the guard neglect his duties?

Secondly, should Chiltern be compensating people for having to get a later train? Moreover what if I had been travelling on an advance ticket?

Thank you

Personally after St James Street the train doesn't move until EVERYONE is the right side of the yellow line and there isn't anyone within touching distance of my train.

If I have to wait for the platform to clear then so be it, I wouldn't be closing door whilst passengers are still boarding, it only takes someone belt or coat to the caught and its five years in nick for me!

NX

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally after St James Street the train doesn't move until EVERYONE is the right side of the yellow line and there isn't anyone within touching distance of my train.

If I have to wait for the platform to clear then so be it, I wouldn't be closing door whilst passengers are still boarding, it only takes someone belt or coat to the caught and its five years in nick for me!

While this is certainly the safe approach, was the issue with James St not the closing of the doors but rather the giving of two bells while someone was leaning on the train?

Of course, the latest case with regard to the elderly passenger may cause your approach to become standard throughout the network, complete with attendant delays in the far busier South East. LU, for instance, would grind to a halt if they could not shut doors on people and depart with people very close to the train.

 

[ComUtoR]

While this is certainly the safe approach, was the issue with James St not the closing of the doors but rather the giving of two bells while someone was leaning on the train?

Much much more was revealed in the report.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Much much more was revealed in the report.

RAIB report? Might have a read, then.

 

[najaB]

Modern power doors will stop if you put your hand firmly in the way.

I seem to remember that someone found out at Newcastle that this isn't always the case.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I seem to remember that someone found out at Newcastle that this isn't always the case.

What train was involved there? Mk4s are not "modern", ISTR it was a Mk4?

 

[CheesyChips]

Was the Guard you saw the same one as the one who closed the doors ?

Are the doors automatic like Electrostars ?

Was you in the same position as the Guard and had their line of sight when the door close was operated or did you check the Guards position after you heard the hustle alarm ?

If you suspected neglect and there was a danger to passengers. Did you report it ?

It was a Chiltern mk3 carriage.

I was the second person about to board, directly behind the person with one foot on the train so I was able to look along the length of the train. I couldn't see the guard for the same reason he/she wouldn't have been able to see me, there were people on the platform walking right next to the platform edge pretty much against the side of the train itself.

I have emailed Chiltern yes.

 

[hounddog]

At this point the doors began to bleep and close with about 10 people including myself still left outside the train.

Can't believe the usual suspects are trying to defend the guard here in view of events in Liverpool. Either he could see the crowd or he couldn't. Either way it clearly wasn't safe to shut the doors.

 

[CheesyChips]

But why did people in the queue not simply move to another door rather than inconsiderately causing delay to the train?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Did you look to see if there was a queue at another door, and if not walk along to that?

If not, why not?

From the train stopping until the doors closed, a period of around 20 seconds elapsed. The train was running late.

 

[najaB]

What train was involved there? Mk4s are not "modern", ISTR it was a Mk4?

I thought it was a 185.

Edit: Seems it was.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From the train stopping until the doors closed, a period of around 20 seconds elapsed. The train was running late.

But was there a queue at any other door?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I thought it was a 185.

Edit: Seems it was.

Thanks, seems like rather a design flaw. I guess it resulted from those doors having very large and easily distorted rubber edges?

 

[SouthStand]

Can't believe the usual suspects are trying to defend the guard here in view of events in Liverpool. Either he could see the crowd or he couldn't. Either way it clearly wasn't safe to shut the doors.

I can.

 

[168lover]

Chiltern guards dispatch mark 3 sets either from the rear of the dvt or the centre coach of the consist if the platform is on a curve.

 

[ComUtoR]

Can't believe the usual suspects are trying to defend the guard here in view of events in Liverpool.

No one is "defending" anyone However; "Accusations" are being made. Should a serious allegation of neglect by allowed without further investigation ? There is always more to the story and a different perspective.

It is ludicrous to believe that a passenger, who is trying to board, knows the exact location and view of the Guard as well as knowing exactly when the door close was initiated. They heard the door close, then checked the Guard ? Not likely. If you hear the hustle alarm you try to board, not check the Guards view of the train. Even if you did they you still don't know when it was initiated or the view the Guard had.

I DOO from Waterloo East in the rush hour you would be surprised at the view I have and if you were on the platform you would doubt I could see.

Same with the QUESTION about the stock and door alarm. We have auto closing doors that alarm but the door close was not initiated by me but passengers f and blind at me for closing the doors, when in FACT that I didn't

Either he could see the crowd or he couldn't.

And the only person who can say that with absolute certainty is the Guard.

Either way it clearly wasn't safe to shut the doors.

Says who ?

The whole thing is hearsay and supposition. Anecdotally it happened but everything else is guesswork. Consider the OP needs to ask about what is right/wrong but doesn't actually know for sure.

 

[Deepgreen]

Can't believe the usual suspects are trying to defend the guard here in view of events in Liverpool. Either he could see the crowd or he couldn't. Either way it clearly wasn't safe to shut the doors.

It's what the usual suspects live for.

 

[CheesyChips]

It is ludicrous to believe that a passenger, who is trying to board, knows the exact location and view of the Guard as well as knowing exactly when the door close was initiated. They heard the door close, then checked the Guard ? Not likely. If you hear the hustle alarm you try to board, not check the Guards view of the train. Even if you did they you still don't know when it was initiated or the view the Guard had.

Ok, let me make this less ludicrous for you. The train was stood at the through platform at Birmingham Moor Street, pretty much a straight platform. The crowds were walking along the platform, more or less against the side of the train. I could see no further back than the crowd therefore the guard could not see me. I was inches from the door given that I was just behind somebody who had one leg in the train and one leg on the platform.

When I heard the door alarms I couldn't try to board as there was a person in front of me and a queue of people inside the train blocking the door. I've said this already.

I can say one thing for certain. The door alarm began to beep whilst the person in front of me was only halfway inside the train.

Same with the QUESTION about the stock and door alarm. We have auto closing doors that alarm but the door close was not initiated by me but passengers f and blind at me for closing the doors, when in FACT that I didn't

I could see the buttons, a passenger didn't press them. As soon as the doors closed, the light on the button went out.

 

[ComUtoR]

I can say one thing for certain. The door alarm began to beep whilst the person in front of me was only halfway inside the train.

So from that you jump to negligence. If that is the only certainty then the rest is hearsay. As always the correct answer was given within a few posts. The rest is just wasted arguments.

I'm glad that you reported it. A rigorous investigation will show the facts. The point of investigations is to find the facts and with OTMR and CCTV it can be done without prejudice. The OTMR is cold and heartless.

It's what the usual suspects live for.

The same goes both ways. Its the same usual suspects that cry foul at every turn and get defensive when counterpoint of any sort is offered up.

People will keep throwing mud till it sticks.

 

[gsnedders]

What happens with Advanced ticket validity if you miss a train because the doors close before you board?

 

[CheesyChips]

So from that you jump to negligence. If that is the only certainty then the rest is hearsay. As always the correct answer was given within a few posts. The rest is just wasted arguments.

I'm glad that you reported it. A rigorous investigation will show the facts. The point of investigations is to find the facts and with OTMR and CCTV it can be done without prejudice. The OTMR is cold and heartless.

No, I haven't "jumped to negligence". I asked a question. I haven't made one malicious assertion against the guard nor have I ever accused the guard of negligence.

I was rather hoping that people like yourself who work on the railway could enlighten me of the routine procedure and open an interesting discussion, particularly in light of the recent Merseyrail guard's criminal charge relating to door closure procedures.

But no, I must be attacking the guard because you decided so.

 

[najaB]

So from that you jump to negligence.

To be fair to CheesyChips he did ask a question:

Firstly, did the guard neglect his duties?

Rather than make an accusation.

 

[Deepgreen]

To be fair to CheesyChips he did ask a question: Rather than make an accusation.

Exactly - but even simple questions concerning certain roles will seemingly almost automatically result in such defensiveness that clouds proper discussion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So from that you jump to negligence. If that is the only certainty then the rest is hearsay. As always the correct answer was given within a few posts. The rest is just wasted arguments.

I'm glad that you reported it. A rigorous investigation will show the facts. The point of investigations is to find the facts and with OTMR and CCTV it can be done without prejudice. The OTMR is cold and heartless.



The same goes both ways. Its the same usual suspects that cry foul at every turn and get defensive when counterpoint of any sort is offered up.

People will keep throwing mud till it sticks.

So who in this thread has "cried foul" or been "throwing mud"? Certainly not the OP.

 

[ComUtoR]

I was rather hoping that people like yourself who work on the railway could enlighten me of the routine procedure and open an interesting discussion

It has been discussed to death and its almost impossible for open discussion.

The Guard carries out the Train safety check.​

The only person who can say for certain is the Guard. The whole I saw, he couldn't possibly have, but this was, they should have, it was crowded, the Guard did this, etc. Is all purely subjective. Not even those who are well versed in procedure can say one way or the other but nobody is willing to accept that premise. So discussion goes in circles.

For a genuine discussion to take place it must be started from a generic interest and not one from an anecdotal experience. It just gets in the way.

particularly in light of the recent Merseyrail guard's criminal charge relating to door closure procedures.

And that thread got locked.

But no, I must be attacking the guard because you decided so.

Alas no, What I did was ask a couple of questions to clarify a few points. Was the Guard negligent ? NOBODY (other than the Guard) can say for certain. That is the only answer anyone can give.

The Guard carries out the Train safety check.​

Where do you wish to start a discussion ?