Guards of this forum, what do you to negate the risk of giving a RTS bell on a red signal?

[Lewis5949]

I'm curious, what do guards, or other non-drivers (as you would have the DRA?) on-train crew who have dispatch responsibilities, do to remind yourself to check the signal and/or remind yourself it is still red, to prevent you from closing the doors and giving a Ready to Start signal bell when the signal is still red?

I'll be honest, I am by no means complacent, recently had a slight lapse in concentration, and forgot to check said signal when stepping off of the train. I had closed the doors and had only noticed before closing my local door that the signal is red. I'm wondering what other guards have done to help prevent this?

The 444/450's are easy to manage in this respect, as you can remain keyed on and can close the panel. Unfortunately a lot of other stock either holds the key captive, requires a different key to open the panel, or is awkwardly placed, so I cannot simply close the panel if I see red.

Someone said they had a colleague who would write G, Y or R next to the name of the station on their paper schedule card when they step off of the train, which is not only useful to put you in to a pattern of checking the signal, but can also be helpful for delay reports if you look at the schedule card and see you had a number of restrictive aspects in a specific area. This idea sounds decent and would also apply no matter the traction being worked, but I'm sure there are many other ways people manage this risk.

So, if you are or were a guard or similar, do you do anything similar, and if so, what?

 

[Dieseldriver]

I'm a Driver and have never been a Guard but one of my techniques is to point at a signal twice before moving my train if stopped at a platform and have received the ready to start and saying the aspect out loud. Maybe a Guard could point at the signal when initially opening the doors and verbalise the aspect shown and then also when it's time for departure.

 

[Lewis5949]

I'm a Driver and have never been a Guard but one of my techniques is to point at a signal twice before moving my train if stopped at a platform and have received the ready to start and saying the aspect out loud. Maybe a Guard could point at the signal when initially opening the doors and verbalise the aspect shown and then also when it's time for departure.

I've heard this one too, but I'm not sure (other than maybe looking a bit odd), when I'm in an environment with so many distractions, if it would be too easy to forget to do that point and/or verbalisation, and could effectively miss it, with it becoming pointless? Does that make sense?

 

[DorkingMain]

I don't trip on a regular basis anymore (spend most of my time parked at desk these days). However, there's a few things I've always done and I advise to guards:

• Make checking the signal the first thing you do after opening the doors. Step out, check the train is accommodated, release, check signal.
• If you know the signal is red, stand away from the panel, with your hands off your whistle. I always preferred to stand behind the yellow line if I was waiting for time or for a signal.
• Check the signal at every stage of the dispatch process. Check signal > close doors > final safety check > check signal > into the cab (+ check signal through the window if possible before giving bells). There have been a few occasions I have known where guards have shut the doors, got in the cab to give the bells and it's that final check that's saved them.
• If you can't see the signal clearly or you aren't sure - don't dispatch. Change position if you can, or call up the driver.
• Never assume you'll be at a green. Any starting signal can be red, and it's the ones that aren't usually red that will catch you out.

 

[Dieseldriver]

I've heard this one too, but I'm not sure (other than maybe looking a bit odd), when I'm in an environment with so many distractions, if it would be too easy to forget to do that point and/or verbalisation, and could effectively miss it, with it becoming pointless? Does that make sense?

I see what you're saying. All I can say is that for me, it's become so ingrained for me to do it that I can't imagine not doing it if that makes sense? In terms of verbalising it, it could even be a mutter under your breath. I find pointing helps in some way to overcome distractions as it's a conscious action rather than just passively glancing at a signal. Another thought is maybe to speak to a manager or Guards Instructor and ask them what techniques they use or what techniques other Guards use. Everyone's mind works completely differently and many Drivers I've spoken to have weird and wonderful techniques to assist them that I personally wouldn't find helpful, occasionally though, a Driver will say something that I think 'actually, that's not a bad shout'...

 

[Platform9]

For myself I say off twice. Off for the signal first, and then off again for the hazard lights all being off. Kind of muttering to myself almost.

Another way is to physically not key in to the DKS untill you've got a proceed aspect.

 

[wils180]

One thing I used to use at night on the 800 is putting my torch on red in the panel below the phone until the signal came off. this with things like not keying in and checking the signal at every part of dispatch are great ways to trip yourself up from making a mistake. So many people use so many different methods, it’s pretty cool learning how others do things

 

[PennineSuperb]

I always take my key out at high risk locations and when the signal is at danger no matter what traction I work. I also do 'STANDS'
S-ignal
T-ime
A-nd
N-ow
D-oors
S-ignal
And fingers crossed it has not tripped me up in 9 years.
It can however be incredibly difficult with people going on at you (colleagues included)
I sometimes use Risk Triggered Commentary and a simple "What the *heck* is going on here" is good because you are not actually feeling like you are doing it but you have acknowledged the risk by doing so.

 

[DorkingMain]

It can however be incredibly difficult with people going on at you (colleagues included)

Very true.
Nearly every "two on a red" incident I've dealt with has been:

- Guard gets distracted by someone and doesn't check the signal properly OR
- Guard gets complacent and doesn't bother checking the signal because it's usually always green, or because it was green when they looked several mins ago

 

[JLyons]

When coming into to ANY stop, get into the habit of saying to yourself in your head ‘time, signal’ regardless if there’s one there or not

 

[bb21]

To me the most important principle I make sure I stick to is "don't let yourself be rushed", whether it be a dispatcher whistling you along with his bat (especially in peaks) or a customer with a last-minute enquiry, either tell him to speak to someone else or wait until you have answered his question. Don't dispatch while addressing the customer. If you need to be abrupt sometimes, so be it.

We all have our own routines and whatever it is always make sure you stick to it - don't cut corners. I'd get slated in normal circumstances but I would say "sod delays" in those situations.

I have got into a habit of saying to myself "are you sure?" before blowing my whistle (or imaginary whistle these days). It forces me to check the signal, more than once sometimes but rather do that than be sorry for the sake of a second. I also do more than one PTI check looking backwards and forwards a couple of times, improving the possibility of catching a glance at a red aspect during the process. I like to check the signal through the droplight if possible after closing the local door. Very useful as I enjoy barking at last-minute runners to stay clear .

 

[father_jack]

When I was a despatcher an old hand hammered into me never to put a whistle in your mouth against a red signal. I suppose a guard could do the same. But these days the whistle is off the kit list.

 

[Stigy]

I'm curious, what do guards, or other non-drivers (as you would have the DRA?)

DRA isn’t an automatic protection against this.

Effective/meaningful RTC should be used in conjunction with it to prevent it becoming just a complacency. Sometimes DRA is forgotten, or used but in a complacent manner and not thought about as to why it was set in the first place. It has been known for drivers to be given the bells and then just reset the DRA and continue, without verbalising anything and thus making the DRA pointless.

 

[baz962]

A question from a driver that's only ever driven doo. Is it just down to the guard , or is the driver still supposed to check the signal themselves. I have to obviously check my own and I hope I still would , if I ever went somewhere with guard's.

 

[Stigy]

A question from a driver that's only ever driven doo. Is it just down to the guard , or is the driver still supposed to check the signal themselves. I have to obviously check my own and I hope I still would , if I ever went somewhere with guard's.

Down to the driver to check too. Ultimately the buck will stop with us. The Guard would have been a big contributing factor, but it’s drummed in to us to recheck the signal before giving two on the buzzer back.

It’s in black and white in the rulebook too (Module SS1 -s.3.1).

 

[DorkingMain]

Indeed, driver still responsible for checking, but guards giving the RA on a red is considered an operational incident because of the high risk of a SPAD as a result

 

[baz962]

Down to the driver to check too. Ultimately the buck will stop with us.

I thought so . Just reading this thread , it comes across as if driver's might become a bit complacent if they have a guard.

 

[dctraindriver]

I thought so . Just reading this thread , it comes across as if driver's might become a bit complacent if they have a guard.

It has happened, a few spads have occurred after a tip on a red. Always check the signal after being given ready to start by guard.

It is incredibly easy to become complacent thus have an incident, thankfully the professionalism of the majority of all most of the time keeps incident rates low.

 

[Stigy]

I thought so . Just reading this thread , it comes across as if driver's might become a bit complacent if they have a guard.

It’s definitely easy to become complacent, and I really can see how these things happen (Swiss cheese and all that). I guess that’s why there’s such an emphasis on effective RTC etc. It’s genuinely a worry of mine that when I (eventually) qualify, it’ll be so easy to fall in to that trap. I’ll probably be so worried I’ll never be complacent .

 

[dctraindriver]

It’s definitely easy to become complacent, and I really can see how these things happen (Swiss cheese and all that). I guess that’s why there’s such an emphasis on effective RTC etc. It’s genuinely a worry of mine that when I (eventually) qualify, it’ll be so easy to fall in to that trap. I’ll probably be so worried I’ll never be complacent .

You’ll put safeguards around you from personal experiences and from your colleagues who unfortunately have an incident. After a while you’ll recognise something’s stacking up where if not on the ball it’s going to go wrong so your state of mind will be heightened and well prepared.

 

[sw1ller]

As a driver, if I hear the doors closing on a red, I just ope my cab door..... can’t get two on the buzzer then. Saved a few guards recently.

 

[Stigy]

As a driver, if I hear the doors closing on a red, I just ope my cab door..... can’t get two on the buzzer then. Saved a few guards recently.

Yeah, I’ve heard of a few people doing this, makes sense. Also whilst setting up the cab to be honest, as it saves being rushed in to setting up the desk by getting two on the buzzer when you’re not ready. It’s easy to become pressured in to doing things quickly and that’s how mistakes happen.

You’ll put safeguards around you from personal experiences and from your colleagues who unfortunately have an incident. After a while you’ll recognise something’s stacking up where if not on the ball it’s going to go wrong so your state of mind will be heightened and well prepared.

Big emphasis on personal safety strategies etc where I am too which we are encouraged to adopt straight away and no doubt help.

 

[dctraindriver]

As a driver, if I hear the doors closing on a red, I just ope my cab door..... can’t get two on the buzzer then. Saved a few guards recently.

Would you do it if your manager was doing a cab ride on you?

 

[DorkingMain]

Would you do it if your manager was doing a cab ride on you?

Can't speak for all TOCs / managers etc but in the name of preventing an operational incident I'm all for it.

 

[Stigy]

Would you do it if your manager was doing a cab ride on you?

Is it frowned upon in the name of safety? You’re preventing an incident occurring, surely?

Having said that I guess technically the incident has occurred, looking at the rulebook?

 

[dctraindriver]

Can't speak for all TOCs / managers etc but in the name of preventing an operational incident I'm all for it.

I’ll answer my own question. I also pop the door if I think it could stop a potential incident. However some think this isn’t the best course of action as potentially the issue isn’t being dealt with.

Is it frowned upon in the name of safety? You’re preventing an incident occurring, surely?

Having said that I guess technically the incident has occurred, looking at the rulebook?

That seems to be it in a nutshell.

 

[Dieseldriver]

Would you do it if your manager was doing a cab ride on you?

I've done it with a manager in the cab. It was just a coincidence that I decided to go and stretch my legs on the platform at that very moment.....

 

[Intermodal]

I used to check the signal as soon as I stepped onto the platform at any station with a signal. If the signal was not showing a proceed aspect I would immediately key out and I would physically walk a good distance away from the train - e.g. to the far side of the platform away from the edge, or to a position near the train but not next to any doors (middle of coach).

I did have an incident at the very start of my career when I closed the doors on a red signal at a station that only has an OFF indicator visible to the guard and where the indicator is in quite a poorly sighted location. Luckily I always 'rechecked' the signal before dispatch and this saved me. When I saw the signal was not clear I reopened the doors and took my key out until such time it cleared.

When I am awaiting a signal I am never in a hurry to get going once it clears. I don't stand there with one finger on the close doors button. Once the signal clears I check the route indication if applicable and then the time, and then open my door control panel and start the dispatch procedure.

I do not personally do this but I know of a guard who closes their panel and then takes their T-Key and places it in their back pocket whenever the signal is at danger - seems like a pretty foolproof method to me - if your T-Key is not in the holster you immediately know you need to check something.

 

[sw1ller]

Would you do it if your manager was doing a cab ride on you?

absolutely. I’m in the mind set that I work in a team and we should all look out for each other rather than trying to get people in trouble and delay services. Don’t get me wrong, I’ll always go and have a word with the guard to make sure they’re aware of what’s just happened.

 

[LowLevel]

I say the aspect to myself and mutter myself through. 'Reddun, yellowun or greenun'. Same as I count down so many seconds under my breath when waiting after the last person has appeared from the doors before pressing close.