Guildford to Croydon

[johnnycache]

Here is another routeing guide question:

passenger wishes to buy a weekly season Guildford to East Croydon
passenger wants flexibility to travel via Redhill or via Clapham Junction

Suggested ticket Guildford to Streatham Common which is valid both ways

Do members think it would be ok for this ticket to be used on non-stop services between Clapham Junction and East Croydon

Thank you

 

[MikeWh]

This has caused much debate before. However, I'm 99% certain that someone with a Shalford to London season has been told that it is valid on not stopping at Shalford services between Guildford and Reigate. That would seem to be a similar scenario. Hopefully someone might know the thread for further info.

 

[yorkie]

FGW said it's permitted.

...As per your original enquiry, I can confirm that it would be valid to travel through Shalford on a non-stopping service. This wouldn't necessarily be the case on a daily fare, but it is permitted with the additional flexibility that a season ticket brings.

Thank you again for allowing us another opportunity to explain, and I hope this information has been of help.

Yours sincerely"

 

[All Line Rover]

Personally I don't think it's permitted. You are making two separate journeys by making use of two different permitted routes, and the NRCoC does not permit you to travel on a through train when using a Season Ticket + Season Ticket combination. In my opinion, the fact that both tickets are the same ticket doesn't affect this.

Some TOCs may claim it is permitted, other TOCs may claim it is not permitted. None of this is authoritative. Certainly I'd hope that, if a passenger ever got to court using this type of 'combination' of tickets, they'd be given the benefit of the doubt.

I'd only be comfortable using it if the routes looked very reasonable. On a recent VT journey, the season ticket I was using, valid both north and south of a certain station, had so unreasonable permitted routes that I'm 99% sure I'd have run into serious problems if I intended to use that single ticket for the entire journey - whereas by using a 19c split, I didn't have much trouble.

 

[globetrotter]

Owlman posted an opinion in his post here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=811421&postcount=15

To paraphrase his opinion as it would apply here, to travel from East Croydon to Clapham Junction (or v.v.) directly [on a non-stop train] ... is invalid as ECR-CLJ is NOT a permitted route as ... you are effectively changing from a GUI-SRC to a SRC-GUI season ticket ... at a station (Streatham Common) where your train does not call.

Yorkie refers to a response by FGW (later in the same thread) saying it's in fact OK, but isn't that just FGW's interpretation of the rules? However, in this particular case, Southern can decide to go along with FGW's interpretation in the event that any questions arise.

Or ... to avoid doubt or difficulty, a Farnborough-Croydon Stations season ticket costs about 10% more I think and allows travel via Redhill or Clapham Junction thus avoiding the issue.

 

[Paul Kelly]

You are not changing from one season ticket to another season ticket though. Any conditions applying to travel with two or more tickets are not relevant here, since there only is one ticket!

 

[All Line Rover]

You are not changing from one season ticket to another season ticket though. Any conditions applying to travel with two or more tickets are not relevant here, since there only is one ticket!

But you cannot make that assumption, as the NRCoC does not tell us whether using a season ticket twice counts as a single 'ticket' or two 'tickets' for the purposes of 19c. On that basis, I'd say it isn't valid (as there's nothing to say it is valid), although as there's also nothing to say it isn't valid, I'd hope any passenger trying it would be 'let off,' and continue to be 'let off' until ATOC decide to clarify matters by changing the NRCoC.

 

[34D]

But you cannot make that assumption, as the NRCoC does not tell us whether using a season ticket twice counts as a single 'ticket' or two 'tickets' for the purposes of 19c. On that basis, I'd say it isn't valid (as there's nothing to say it is valid), although as there's also nothing to say it isn't valid, I'd hope any passenger trying it would be 'let off,' and continue to be 'let off' until ATOC decide to clarify matters by changing the NRCoC.

Well, there _is_ only one ticket, so clause 19 isn't involved at all.

I would be happy to say that the proposed scenario is valid, though I don't see anything in any official public source that confirms this in black and white.

 

[All Line Rover]

Well, there _is_ only one ticket, so clause 19 isn't involved at all.

I would be happy to say that the proposed scenario is valid, though I don't see anything in any official public source that confirms this in black and white.

Condition 19 says: "You may use two or more tickets for one journey..."

Condition 18 says: "If you travel beyond the destination shown on the ticket, you will be treated as having joined the train without a ticket for that additional part of your journey..."

There is no condition which says "you may use one ticket for two or more journeys," which is what the OP proposes to do. Therefore, in my opinion, condition 18 comes into play (and all the consequences that go with it), unless you fancy going for my strained interpretation of condition 19, which I'm not claiming to be correct.

 

[MikeWh]

There is no condition which says "you may use one ticket for two or more journeys," which is what the OP proposes to do. Therefore, in my opinion, condition 18 comes into play (and all the consequences that go with it), unless you fancy going for my strained interpretation of condition 19, which I'm not claiming to be correct.

Except that a season ticket can be used for unlimited journeys.

 

[All Line Rover]

Except that a season ticket can be used for unlimited journeys.

Well of course a season ticket allows you to make multiple journeys, but nowhere does the NRCoC say you can make two or more journeys on a through train.

 

[MikeWh]

Well of course a season ticket allows you to make multiple journeys, but nowhere does the NRCoC say you can make two or more journeys on a through train.

Does it need to? Say I have a season ticket from Crayford to London terminals. Are you saying that I can't travel from Cannon Street round to Cannon Street via Crayford and Slade Green on a through train? Admitedly the train will stop at Crayford, but in terms of making a journey or journeys, is it a problem if it doesn't stop. The key fact is that the ticket is valid on every metre of track that the train goes over whilst you are on it.

 

[calc7]

Would such a ticket be validated in terms of 19(c) by purchasing the cheapest CDS/SDS between two stations on the route being taken?

 

[FenMan]

Here is another routeing guide question:

passenger wishes to buy a weekly season Guildford to East Croydon
passenger wants flexibility to travel via Redhill or via Clapham Junction

Suggested ticket Guildford to Streatham Common which is valid both ways

Do members think it would be ok for this ticket to be used on non-stop services between Clapham Junction and East Croydon

Thank you

With apologies for slightly diverting from the question; Johnny, as you work for Southern, could you look into the validity of tickets to East Croydon from North Downs Line stations west of Guildford e.g. North Camp and Blackwater?
The journey planners do not permit the route via Redhill, even though it is by far the fastest and most convenient. Thanks!

 

[All Line Rover]

Does it need to? Say I have a season ticket from Crayford to London terminals. Are you saying that I can't travel from Cannon Street round to Cannon Street via Crayford and Slade Green on a through train? Admitedly the train will stop at Crayford, but in terms of making a journey or journeys, is it a problem if it doesn't stop. The key fact is that the ticket is valid on every metre of track that the train goes over whilst you are on it.

If you don't mind I'll ignore the Crayford to London Terminals example, as it is irrelevant to the point at hand since the train stops at the station at which you change 'tickets.'

Moving on, here are four statements regarding ticketing combinations on a through train (i.e. the train does not stop at the station/s where you change tickets). For each we will try to determine a yes or no answer.

1. Is a Season A + SDS + Season B combination valid? No, as per 19c (maximum of 1 season ticket permitted).
   
2. Is a Season A + Season B combination valid? No, as per 19c.
   
3. Is a Season A + SDS + Season A combination valid? Not sure, although given statement (1) the logical conclusion is 'no.'
   
4. Is a Season A + Season A combination valid? Again, not sure, but if statement (3) is 'no,' and also taking into account statement (2), the logical conclusion is again 'no.'

The NRCoC does not address the issue of combining two permitted routes on a through train using a single season ticket. I doubt this was ever thought of when the NRCoC was created.

As regards the philosophy behind routeing, it must be remembered that the purpose of permitted routes was to replace the 'any reasonable route' rule under BR. Back then, would this ticketing 'combination' have been permitted? No, obviously not - a route is not reasonable if it involves passing through your destination! Since the introduction of the Routeing Guide, and with no official source explicitly stating it is permitted, why are people concluding that it is suddenly permitted?

The last point you make - "The key fact is that the ticket is valid on every metre of track that the train goes over whilst you are on it" - does not hold any water. A Season A + Season B combination 'is valid on every metre of track that the train goes over whilst you are on it,' but is explicitly forbidden by the NRCoC.

 

[MikeWh]

The last point you make - "The key fact is that the ticket is valid on every metre of track that the train goes over whilst you are on it" - does not hold any water. A Season A + Season B combination 'is valid on every metre of track that the train goes over whilst you are on it,' but is explicitly forbidden by the NRCoC.

But the ticket is definitive and singular, there is no combination of tickets, so 19c doesn't enter into the equation.

 

[All Line Rover]

But the ticket is definitive and singular, there is no combination of tickets, so 19c doesn't enter into the equation.

In what way does this argument...

"The key fact is that the tickets are valid on every metre of track that the train goes over"​

differ from this argument...

"The key fact is that the ticket is valid on every metre of track that the train goes over"​

...? The premise of both arguments is the same - that the ticket/s one holds cover the entire journey being made. The former is incorrect, as per the NRCoC. The latter is no better.

What my previous post was trying to demonstrate is that there is little distinction between using two season tickets for two 'journeys' on the same through train, and using one season ticket for two 'journeys' on the same through train. With no guidance on the latter in the NRCoC, one can only consult the former (i.e. 19c) and perhaps even consider the reasoning behind the rules. The NRCoC does not consider using a combination of permitted routes as it is a very odd thing to do, so the conditions governing using a combination of tickets (19c) is the closest we can get to any sort of guidance on combining permitted routes.

Just because there is nothing to say that something is not permitted, doesn't mean it is permitted.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It's also worth bringing 13a into the equation, which I shall quote:

The route you are entitled to take

(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:​

(i) a train on which you are able to make your entire journey without changing trains;​

(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services; or​

(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide.​

(i) and (ii) are irrelevant for our purposes, so we must consider (iii). Going back to the OP's question, does a Clapham Junction to East Croydon train "take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide" for a Guildford to Streatham Common ticket? The answer is no. Therefore it is not permitted to travel on a Clapham Junction to East Croydon train using a Guildford to Streatham Commmon season ticket.

This is the closest I can get to an authoritative answer. Does anyone have something from the NRCoC that contradicts this argument? I'd appreciate any holes in it being brought to light!

 

[maniacmartin]

This certainly is a grey area. Section 30 states that a season ticket " includes the right to start, break and resume, or end your journey, as described in Condition 16, which is silent on the matter of split ticketing with the same ticket for both parts.

I would not make such a journey on a ticket. However:

If you use the Season Ticket to
travel beyond the station or zones for which it is valid, you will be treated as having joined the train without a ticket for that additional part of your journey and Condition 2 or 4 will apply.

[...] you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey [...]

What is this "additional part"? It is the part of the journey that you do not hold a ticket for, namely from Streatham Common to Streatham Common, so a ticket cannot be sold for this. Or is it from Streatham Common to the next stop that the train calls at?

(Ignoring Penalty Fares as they aren't given to passengers who hold valid tickets)

 

[johnnycache]

Thanks everyone for contributing to this discussion

As many of you know I work for Southern but i'm really not sure about this one

There doesn't seem to be any doubt that a season ticket from Guildford to Streatham Common would be valid for the journey Guildford to East Croydon via Clapham Junction if the train in question stopped at Streatham Common (as some do)

The fare is set between two clusters

Q045 which includes

Balham
Gipsy Hill
Mitcham Eastfields
Streatham
Streatham Common
Streatham Hill
Tulse Hill
Wandsworth Common
West Norwood

Q407 which includes

Chilworth
Guildford
London Road Guildford
Shalford
Worplesdon

Given that this fare is set between clusters and presumably always has been GUILDFORD would be a valid routeing point for

Worplesdon
Shalford
Chilworth

So suppose you held a ticket from Chilworth to Streatham Common you might on occasion be tempted to do the following
(to avoid a long wait for a train from Redhill to Chilworth)

Streatham Common
East Croydon
Redhill
Guildford
Chilworth

would that be ok?

Or if you held a ticket from Worplesdon to Streatham Common you might on occasion be tempted to do the following
(to avoid a long wait for a train from Woking to Worplesdon)

Streatham Common
Clapham Junction
Guildford
Worplesdon

In both cases the entire route covered is within the permitted routes of the ticket the only problem is that one is not travelling on a train stopping at the origin/destination station

One objection seems to derive from the NRCoC prohibition in 19(c) which states that where two (or more) tickets are being used for a journey only one can be a season ticket if the train does not stop at the station where the tickets change over.
Certainy if the passenger held a single ticket from Streatham Common to East Croydon there would be no argument (the combination would be valid)
However if the passenger held a season ticket from Streatham Common to East Croydon that would not be alright (the combination would be invalid)
However this doesn't seem relevant as only one ticket is being used here and the "changeover point" is the (nominal) destination rather than an intermediate point. Interestingly in airline fares this situation is quite common and fares are calculated to "fictitious points" that give the passenger the best deal.

I'm inclined to say its ok because i can't find a rule against it. So we would state the policy as follows:

"If a passenger holds a season ticket that entitles them to travel between their origin and destination stations over a number of permitted routes they are allowed to make any journeys they wish to over those routes including on trains that pass through their origin and/or destination stations without stopping".

 

[maniacmartin]

I presume such a policy would only be officially endorsed by Southern if enacted? Or are you considering pushing this in ATOC's direction?

 

[johnnycache]

I think it ought to be agreed generally.
There is a meeting of the ATOC fares and retail group in January where I represent Go-Ahead Group so could bring it up then. Is there anything I've missed? Do you agree with my conclusion?

 

[All Line Rover]

Such a rule would benefit the passenger so I would fully support it. I wouldn't say it is necessarily logical based on an interpretation of the existing rules, nor would I say getting agreement from other TOCs would be easy, as there seems to be no good reason why a passenger would want to utilise such a rule unless they are trying to exploit a loophole. One could rebuff that argument by saying 'If one holds a season ticket covering travel on an entire section of track, and season tickets allow unlimited journeys, why can't one travel along that entire section of track without stopping?' It's hard to disagree with that logic.

Clarification on this matter is needed and, if it can be made in favour of the passenger, so much the better. But I would want any clarification to be published somewhere on NRE (e.g. on one of the season ticket pages) rather than tucked away in the hidden Manual.

 

[johnnycache]

Note that for the same fare as Guildford to Streatham Common I could buy Guildford to Crystal Palace

While Crystal Palace is in the same fares cluster as Streatham Common it is a separate routeing point

The maps permitted between Guildford and Crystal Palace are as follows:

PD + SC
PD + SC + WX + LB

PD includes

Guildford to Clapham Junction via Woking
Guildford to Clapham Junction via Clandon
Guildford to Epsom via Leatherhead

SC includes

Clapham Junction to Crystal Palace via Streatham Group
Clapham Junction to Crystal Palace via Croydon Group
Epsom to Crystal Palace via Streatham Group
Epsom to Crystal Palace via Croydon Group
Redhill to Crystal Palace via Croydon Group

WX includes

Guildford to Clapham Junction via Woking

LK includes

Clapham Junction to Crystal Palace via Streatham

There is no doubt that i could travel Clapham Junction to East Croydon non-stop with this ticket as Clapham Junction - Croydon - Crystal Palace is a permitted route for the Clapham Junction - Crystal Palace part of this journey

 

[globetrotter]

There is no doubt that i could travel Clapham Junction to East Croydon non-stop with this ticket as Clapham Junction - Croydon - Crystal Palace is a permitted route for the Clapham Junction - Crystal Palace part of this journey

But surely not via Redhill (the point of your original question)? That requires travel via map CS. Edit: Correction, not map CS but in this particular case SD.

In my earlier posting I meant to say Farncombe but accidentally typed Farnborough instead, sorry about that.

A Farncombe to Croydon Stations ticket, interestingly, appears to be priced the same as one to Streatham Common and weekly seasons to either do allow travel via Redhill or via Clapham Junction.

 

[johnnycache]

Thanks. I think i've been confusing SD and SC
Back to the drawing board!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've come up with what i think is a robust solution to the original problem

The problem was "can i buy a season ticket from Guildford to East Croydon that allows travel both via Clapham Junction and via Redhill?"

The following choices are available from brfares.com

route any permitted (cross-London marker) - no seasons
route Clapham Junction seven day season £80.50
route Gomshall seven day season £59.40
route Not Via London seven day season £66.50

I think that if i bought the route Clapham Junction ticket i would be allowed to travel by Redhill as its a cheaper route

However i don't see why i should have to pay that much as the Not Via London route should be valid on all routes that don't actually include a London Terminal and since Woking Redhill includes maps CS+PD i think it should be ok via both Clapham Junction and Redhill

It seems strange that I as a TOC employee (Southern) who is actually involved in pricing should be asking for help on this but i'm afraid the rules are incredibly opaque and i need all the help i can get!

What do you think?

 

[maniacmartin]

OK, I'm going to try and work this out for myself and see if I get the same results

Guildford is a Routeing Point
East Croydon is part of the Croydon Group

Guildford to East Croydon via Redhill is 2.98 miles more than the shortest route according to TrainsCanBeCheaper, so would be allowed under the 3 mile rule without consulting the maps unless an easement prevents it.

Permitted Routes Guildford - Croydon are: LONDON, PD+SC, PD+SC+WX+LB.
Leaving LONDON aside for the moment:
Consider PD+SC:
On PD: Guildford - Woking - Surbiton - Wimbledon - Clapham Junction
On SC: Clapham Junction - Streatham - Croydon

On my search of BRFares GLD - ECR:
To: CROYDON STATIONS 7DS SEVEN DAY STD ◊ VIA REDHILL FIRST GREAT WESTERN NO £69.50
To: CROYDON STATIONS 7DS SEVEN DAY STD ◊ NOT VIA CLAPHM J SOUTH WEST TRAINS NO £59.80

Following this thread, then it follows that the VIA REDHILL ticket is also valid via Clapham Junction as both are permitted routes. Of course the passenger would need to convince a SWT guard of this, so it might be best if the ticket was endorsed by the ticket office for travel by that route to make life easier

Thus I don't think the ticket office clerk needs to consult season tickets to other stations such as Crystal Palace, and they are not obliged to either unless the passenger specifically asks for prices and validity to Crystal Palace.
However, Guildford to Crystal Palace appears to be valid via Clapham Junction on PD+SC but as stated above, not valid via Redhill.

I can't find the fares you've quoted above in BRFares. Which stations did you search between?

 

[MikeWh]

To: CROYDON STATIONS 7DS SEVEN DAY STD ◊ NOT VIA CLAPHM J SOUTH WEST TRAINS NO £59.80

I believe this fare is intended for Guildford - Effingham Junction - Leatherhead - Sutton - West Croydon, hence the Not via Clapham Junction.

 

[John @ home]

Guildford to East Croydon via Redhill is 2.98 miles more than the shortest route according to TrainsCanBeCheaper, so would be allowed under the 3 mile rule without consulting the maps unless an easement prevents it.

The National Routeing Guide tells us that "The shortest route is calculated by reference to the National Rail Timetable (NRT)." This is one of the occasions when it is not safe to rely on other, unofficial, sources. From the NRT:

• the shortest route Guidford - Cheam - Selhurst - East Croydon is 26.5 miles
  (T182: GLD-WCY=24.5mi; T177: WCY-SEL=1mi; T177: SEL-ECR=1mi) and
• Guidford - Redhill - East Croydon is 31.25 miles
  (T148: GLD-RDH=20.75mi; T177: RDH-ECR=10.5mi).

In this instance, Guidford - Redhill - East Croydon is deemed to be 4.75 miles further than the shortest route, so we cannot say that it is a Permitted Route without preforming the full calculation.

 

[maniacmartin]

Sorry for the laziness on my part. I would have used the NRT if I was intending to travel on such a ticket but did not have access to it when I posted from a crummy internet connection. I suspect it is due to how TCBC handles station groups.

However
To: CROYDON STATIONS 7DS SEVEN DAY STD ◊ VIA REDHILL FIRST GREAT WESTERN NO £69.50
would obviously be valid via Redhill as it is the route printed on the ticket (despite not being valid on an ANY PERMITTED ticket), and as via Clapham Junction is a mapped route, and a cheaper ticket, I still believe that the via Redhill ticket could cover travel on both routes

 

[johnnycache]

What I should have said above was that the fares I was quoting are from Woking to Redhill - sorry very misleading