GWR Class 165/166 Turbo Diagrams

[GWRrrr]

Today the six Exmouth-Paignton diagrams have three 2-car 150s, a 3-car 158, a 2-car 158 and one 166. You'd normally expect maybe three turbos and the other three as 2x2-car 150s. Looking at this over the past few weeks the situation seems to have been getting gradually worse, with more 2-car 150s and fewer turbos. Anybody know what's happening?

And today (Saturday), a 166, a 2-car 150, two 2-car 158s, two 2x2-car 150s, and a 2-car 165.

 

[cactustwirly]

Todays 13:23 1F20 Portsmouth-Cardiff is being operated by 2car 158 instead due to lack of turbos. Having started right time, now 16 minutes late at Bath.

The number of short formations in Bristol area is getting stupid, GWR simply doesn’t have enough stock to operate its diagrams

The west has more carriages than in 2017, and with the railway not recovering to pre 2020 numbers, there should be enough units...

 

[CharlesR]

The west has more carriages than in 2017, and with the railway not recovering to pre 2020 numbers, there should be enough units...

Cardiff-Portsmouth was unsuitably short for many years prior to the cascade of turbos, so much so that even with more seats it's still bad - hence the original aim for 5 car turbos to operate the line. On top of that, enhancements to services for example on Severn Beach line, means more units are required.

All of this on top of doubled frequency for services to Gloucester and Westbury, something which of you are unfortunate enough to stand on a 158 every time you ride the service, you will see why it is needed. But still not enough stock, therefore no changes just yet. The service is inadequate frequency wise and the service is almost always full...

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The west has more carriages than in 2017, and with the railway not recovering to pre 2020 numbers, there should be enough units...

The ‘west’ has exceeded pre covid passenger numbers. Recovery has been much stronger than London commuting.

 

[Dai Corner]

The ‘west’ has exceeded pre covid passenger numbers. Recovery has been much stronger than London commuting.

Yes, GWR's problem is that they have too many of the "wrong kind of passengers'. Tourists and leisure travellers rather than London commuters around which the infrastructure and services were designed.

 

[Western Sunset]

Can someone enlighten me on the value of the Temple Meads - Filton AW shuttle? It seems to tie-up a 166 for much of the day. Is it subsidised by the MOD?

 

[cactustwirly]

Can someone enlighten me on the value of the Temple Meads - Filton AW shuttle? It seems to tie-up a 166 for much of the day. Is it subsidised by the MOD?

It interworks with the Avonmouth service.

Seems very wasteful though, spends half and hour at Filton Abbey Wood

 

[Western Sunset]

Ironically, it waits on the spur of the freight-only line to... Avonmouth.

 

[Dai Corner]

Ironically, it waits on the spur of the freight-only line to... Avonmouth.

Is there some reason it can't get to Parkway?

 

[Snow1964]

The west has more carriages than in 2017, and with the railway not recovering to pre 2020 numbers, there should be enough units...

It is mainly commuter lines that haven’t recovered, the South West is more leisure oriented and some of the services are seeing usage in excess of pre covid levels.

You also have to factor in the population growth in the area. As an example Boundary commission is having to increase number of constituencies (Avon, Somerset & Devon from 28 to 30, Gloucestershire & Wiltshire 13 to 14, Oxfordshire from 6 to 7, so suggests population up about 8-15% since last review)

So even if Covid hadn’t changed journey levels, an 8-15% increase in population would need 8-15% bigger trains.

So even if GWR put 19 units (769) in service, (a big if), and move all its London Thames Valley turbos to the west, still not enough units to cover all the leisure growth, population growth and replace the castle HSTs.

 

[cactustwirly]

It is mainly commuter lines that haven’t recovered, the South West is more leisure oriented and some of the services are seeing usage in excess of pre covid levels.

You also have to factor in the population growth in the area. As an example Boundary commission is having to increase number of constituencies (Avon, Somerset & Devon from 28 to 30, Gloucestershire & Wiltshire 13 to 14, Oxfordshire from 6 to 7, so suggests population up about 8-15% since last review)

So even if Covid hadn’t changed journey levels, an 8-15% increase in population would need 8-15% bigger trains.

So even if GWR put 19 units (769) in service, (a big if), and move all its London Thames Valley turbos to the west, still not enough units to cover all the leisure growth, population growth and replace the castle HSTs.

The castle HSTs are being replaced by the TfW 158s aren't they?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The castle HSTs are being replaced by the TfW 158s aren't they?

There is no current plan to replace the Castle HSTs. The TfW 158s are not available for quite some time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2022 ==

Is there some reason it can't get to Parkway?

It’s part of the West of England Combined Authorities funded “Metro West” in the future it will be running on to Henbury.

 

[Express380]

There is no current plan to replace the Castle HSTs. The TfW 158s are not available for quite some time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2022 ==

Looks like a few Castle workings are becoming IET operated from December but by no means a full takeover, is there any likely replacements for these yet though presumably will involve turbos somehow?

 

[Dai Corner]

There is no current plan to replace the Castle HSTs. The TfW 158s are not available for quite some time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2022 ==



It’s part of the West of England Combined Authorities funded “Metro West” in the future it will be running on to Henbury.

How long is 'quite some time' ? TfWs 197s are being built right now and are out on mileage accumulation runs.

Doesn't WECA think they'd be more useful going to Parkway for now?

 

[JonathanH]

The ‘west’ has exceeded pre covid passenger numbers. Recovery has been much stronger than London commuting.

Whilst that may be the case, the loss of cross subsidy from London commuting to the overall railway 'pot' means that extra capacity may not be affordable.

As pointed out here https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ge-of-cost-cutting.231281/page-8#post-5813034

Looks like a few Castle workings are becoming IET operated from December but by no means a full takeover, is there any likely replacements for these yet though presumably will involve turbos somehow?

There don't need to be replacements. Some 80x are spare from them not being used to Bedwyn and the Bristol fast being cancelled.

It does of course use a Turbo running Newbury to Bedwyn all day instead of just in the peaks.

 

[cactustwirly]

Whilst that may be the case, the loss of cross subsidy from London commuting to the overall railway 'pot' means that extra capacity may not be affordable.

As pointed out here https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ge-of-cost-cutting.231281/page-8#post-5813034


There don't need to be replacements. Some 80x are spare from them not being used to Bedwyn and the Bristol fast being cancelled.

It does of course use a Turbo running Newbury to Bedwyn all day instead of just in the peaks.

There isn't enough 80xs to fully replace the HSTs, and they are just as expensive to operate

 

[JonathanH]

There isn't enough 80xs to fully replace the HSTs, and they are just as expensive to operate

Yes, but the HSTs can go for scrap. 80x are on a long term contract.

Turbos are perfectly adequate for Cardiff to Taunton services that don't go further west. They would be perfectly adequate for a secondary service to Penzance if they were cleared beyond Plymouth and there was enough traincrew knowledge

 

[Express380]

Yes, but the HSTs can go for scrap. 80x are on a long term contract.

Turbos are perfectly adequate for Cardiff to Taunton services that don't go further west. They would be perfectly adequate for a secondary service to Penzance if they were cleared beyond Plymouth and there was enough traincrew knowledge

But most diagrams do visit Penzance and surely the IETs can't stretch to all the current HST workings so there must be a replacement of some kind to work alongside the IET workings.

 

[JonathanH]

But most diagrams do visit Penzance and surely the IETs can't stretch to all the current HST workings so there must be a replacement of some kind to work alongside the IET workings.

They aren't removing all HST workings though, as you say, just reducing them.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

How long is 'quite some time' ? TfWs 197s are being built right now and are out on mileage accumulation runs.

And then ETCS has to be tested. I believe they are on lease to TfW until we’ll in 2024 now.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2022 ==

Turbos are perfectly adequate for Cardiff to Taunton services that don't go further west. They would be perfectly adequate for a secondary service to Penzance if they were cleared beyond Plymouth and there was enough traincrew knowledge

None of the Taunton diagrams are stand alone

 

[Western Sunset]

Line occupancy might be an issue if the BTM - Filton AW shuttle was extended to Parkway. Currently, it uses the western pair of tracks out of BTM: if it continued to Parkway it'd have to cross to the eastern ones before Filton.

 

[Dai Corner]

Line occupancy might be an issue if the BTM - Filton AW shuttle was extended to Parkway. Currently, it uses the western pair of tracks out of BTM: if it continued to Parkway it'd have to cross to the eastern ones before Filton.

Though the "superfast' Paddington-Parkway-Temple Meads' being removed from the timetable might free up the capacity? I don't know the WTT well enough to judge though.
"

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yes, but the HSTs can go for scrap. 80x are on a long term contract.

Turbos are perfectly adequate for Cardiff to Taunton services that don't go further west. They would be perfectly adequate for a secondary service to Penzance if they were cleared beyond Plymouth and there was enough traincrew knowledge

Anyone who really cared what stock they were on could change to XC at Bristol or beyond, and would also have the opportunity to join the GW Fasts from Taunton

 

[RPI]

The issue with Exeter could quite easily be eased by making up a load of three car 150's, the problem is that 2 coaches is never adequate on the Exmouth-Paignton route other than on a handful of trains, everything being 3 cars would be adequate, yes a few peak ones would be cosy but at least short forming would be a rarer occurrence rather than a daily occurrence.

 

[CharlesR]

The issue with Exeter could quite easily be eased by making up a load of three car 150's, the problem is that 2 coaches is never adequate on the Exmouth-Paignton route other than on a handful of trains, everything being 3 cars would be adequate, yes a few peak ones would be cosy but at least short forming would be a rarer occurrence rather than a daily occurrence.

Is there anywhere in the West region that 2-car trains are adequate, even off peak? In an ideal world they'd be used in only 4-car or 5-car formations, although an ideal world is all to far away at the moment...

 

[Express380]

Is there anywhere in the West region that 2-car trains are adequate, even off peak? In an ideal world they'd be used in only 4-car or 5-car formations, although an ideal world is all to far away at the moment...

Looe branch usually copes fine with 2 from what I have seen

 

[RPI]

Is there anywhere in the West region that 2-car trains are adequate, even off peak? In an ideal world they'd be used in only 4-car or 5-car formations, although an ideal world is all to far away at the moment...

Okehampton copes fine with 2, likewise Gunnislake, Looe and Newquay.

 

[Western Sunset]

What are loadings down to Falmouth like?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

What are loadings down to Falmouth like?

2 cars struggle at times but are mostly ok.

 

[Express380]

What are loadings down to Falmouth like?

Always fairly busy especially during the day dies down as you head to final few services, Sunday mornings when it's just one unit doing the hourly service it's virtually always full and standing